SPECULATION Romance - who falls for who in VIII?

Art/images of the two young leads = auto romantic? #__# wut

I looked at magnified images of the posters. No hearts to me. Dang if they're going for Reylo they are being really REALLY dang subtle about it. And misdirecting like crazy. Sounds likely.

Btw I've saved 6 or 7 *actual* (beautiful) "Reylo" pics I've encountered. I guess that despite evidence to the contrary, I must be a Reylo

Wait, wait. Wanting or believing Kylo will be redeemed =/= being a Reylo.

I think 1. They made the redemption arc obv in TFA and 2. Kylo's redemption is thematically necessary. Am I a Reylo?

So LFL would forgo Rey Related in favor of Rey Unrelated to give her a romance that they believe the audience might not be up for? #__# Whaaaa...

"Sweetheart" is trolling? Huh? What's wrong with looking to the *movie* for evidence?

Erm, again...I think they telegraphed "REDEMPTION!!!" pretty loudly in TFA. Because I tend to think that scripts are crafted a particular way for a particular reason.

So yes,yes of COURSE Kylo is being marketed as a sympathetic figure. I'd be shocked if he were marketed otherwise at this point.

Yes. Not exactly shocking - he's Han and Leia's son, after all.

I don't think the consequences for patricide will be no redemption. I certainly believe it precludes a happy ending and/or a romance (with anyone) however. If they were going for either, don't think it was bright of them to have Kylo kill Han (on-screen, an in front of Rey, too!).

 

we're talking about THIS:



it's obviously a "Reylo" picture. Rian Johnson "liked" it.

that's not what i said.

we're not talking about the movie right now. we're talking about social media and the director's behavior on social media.

you tell me why Johnson calls Kylo Ren a sweetheart.
if he's being facetious, that's mean.
if he's being sincere, that's a curious choice of words, don't you agree?

my point is, people object to Rey & Ben because they say he's creepy and rapey toward her, but clearly the marketing doesn't think he's creepy and rapey.
he's not being sold to us as those things.

i get it: it's hard for people to believe that anyone can have a change of heart in the face of such a terrible crime.
but maybe that's the point.

 

How is it obviously indicative of romance? Would that pic be icky if Rey and Kylo were related? I sure fon't think so.

Than why were you talking about evidence for Kylo's redemption? Sounded to me like you were citing evidence of Kylo's future redemption as evidence for Reylo. If you weren't, I don't understand its relevance.

Ermmmm and there are a couple of Matt Martin (SG member) which are *wholly inconsistent* with the idea of Reylo being canon..so not sure citing social media stuff really bolsters the Reylo argument...

Wait, are we saying words mean stuff now? 'Cause I got a script you just gotta see

(Um, either he's saying "Awwwe lookit that poor puppydog face! He really isnt THAT bad, you'll see!" or "I have the hots for Kylo Ren." Don't think he's referring to that voice bit in the novelizations. At all.)

Not "creepy" or "rapey" going forward, no.

But if TFA was intended as the set-up for the rest the ST, deliberately portraying the (to-be-redeemed) villain that way was a dumb way to try to foreshadow a romance. If that's what JJ was trying to do, the fact that the vast majority of the audience thought Rey is related indicates he failed pretty spectacularly.

Yes, it's hard. Which may be why, in Disney's 2 BatB iterations, the Beast didn't do anything so bad as to actively turn off the audience to the idea of possible romance. (And it's STILL a controversial story in some circles!)

Maybe if the Redemption of Kylo Ren were a 10-hour-long-episode limited series, the GA could be convinced to accept redemption AND romance.

But in 2 movies with several storylines and limited narrative space? Deliberately making Kylo seem as villainous as he does in TFA (which was very deliberate - JJ flat-out said that that was the goal for Kylo's portreyal in TFA) is really, really inconsistent with a romantic endgame.

 

i just explained that.
Rey & Ben as a romantic couple is predicated on Ben's redemption.
you agree that there's a good chance Ben will be redeemed.
some people who see the redemption as a foregone conclusion see no obstacle for Rey and Ben to therefore have a romance.

i'm not arguing for "Reylo", i'm asking whether Rian Johnson's social media behavior is trying to tell us something--whether it's a romance or a redemption--or anything at all.
you keep bringing superfluous points into the conversation.
i'm only talking about one specific thing: Rian Johnson's "likes" in the scope of Lucasfilm marketing for the character of Kylo Ren.
we can certainly talk about other things, but please don't make my argument about stuff i'm not addressing--it's irrelevant what Matt Martin did (what'd he do? hahaha).

i didn't even bring the novel up. see how you're assuming the argument?
i'm just talking about the word sweetheart.
if it's meant facetiously, it's mean.
if it's meant sincerely, it's an interesting choice of words.
we typically use sweetheart for our children and our lovers--it's a curious thing to call a grown man who's murdered his father.
Johnson would also know it's a charged word. so why did he pick it?
just to troll or because he wants to feed an agenda? and which agenda, if that's the case?

"vast majority"? even on this forum we're split almost down the middle.
also, again, i don't know whether it foreshadows a romance; it foreshadows their "connection"--which could turn romantic.
whether it's "dumb" is a matter of opinion.

i don't care about Beauty and the Beast. I care about Star Wars. the comparisons have gotten odious to me ~ hahahaha

i'm sorry, that makes no sense. maybe you need 10 hours to accept a romance, but Lucasfilm won't need 10 hours to tell it. just because you can't conceive a tight storyline doesn't mean it isn't possible. characters fall madly in love in well under 2 hours in plenty of films. the ST still has more than 4 to pull something off.

not that they will!

i'm just saying that to claim the general audience won't accept it just means you don't believe it. doesn't mean it can't actually happen.

again: maybe the incongruity is the point.
people want a twist? there you have it. : D

 

So, I'm not necessarily for "Reylo" (simply as I don't think there's been quite enough of a hint towards that being a possibility at this point, in TFA or other canon media, but it's possible that this changes with TLJ) and I don't think we can take RJ liking a post/image as a hint that this relationship is indeed going to come to fruition in VIII this December. The guy's a (great) director and storyteller: why not throw some people of the trail, or, perhaps even more simply, why can't he just like some artwork?

I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned it at this point, so forgive me if I'm late (I've been offline for a few months) to the party, but I suppose it's worth mentioning that Leia and Han met when they were 19 and 29, respectively, you know...the same ages as Rey and Ben in TFA, respectively.

I'm interested, though, for those that think Reylo is indeed on the cards, how do you think they'll portray it in the film (the reason the idea became so awkward to me when I first heard the suggestion over a year ago is because all I could imagine was Rey being captured by Kylo and it all coming out of that)?

 

just out of curiosity--if they reversed this trope, is it any less awkward?
if Ren gets captured and they "bring him to heel" is that a better environment to foster familiarity?

if i were writing this and was mandated to make it happen, i would have the both of them reject their "sides".
they could run away together and become tenuous allies at first, with the opportunity to grow into something more.
if they perceive themselves as having common enemies, that's plenty of fertile ground.
it's left for them to find the balance--together. a "third" solution that's neither New Republic/Resistance nor FO/Snoke.

 

To answer your question, nope, it's not much less awkward. As I stated, this was based more on the idea seeming so out of left-field at the time and perhaps especially because we'd seen something of an awkward torture sequence between the two in TFA.

Then again, I suppose it is doable in that situation in a not-so awkward way, with one helping the other to escape; for instance, Kylo might work extremely hard to capture Rey and bring him to Snoke who's still not pleased and plans to torture Rey, which Kylo is against, freeing and protecting her.

But perhaps this is just me wanting to see Kylo vs. Snoke

 

much as i don't want to see Ben take revenge on Snoke, it will be very gratifying watching the fishy-eyed toilet monster get it in the end.
the scenario you describe with Ren protecting Rey would be another possibility, but again, same thing could be true if Ren were the prisoner.
he could need defending from the Resistance just the same.

i kinda don't want to see any capture plots at all though. at least not like that. hahahaha

 

Again, I ask, how does that picture suggest ReyxKylo romance? How does intent of the artist support the idea that RJ supports/condones/ whatever Reylo if that intent is not apparent in the art?

I'm no artist, but I've imagine adorable Rey-Kylo cousin art no less "romantic" than that...

(It IS a very cute picture, tho! FAR more Reylo art than ReySky art, but what artist wouldn't prefer to draw a cute young couple? )

Redemption is a prerequisite but not, of course, sufficient.

I can pretty much guarantee you Kylo will be redeemed. I'm just that certain.

But how does "not being evil anymore" in any way = no obstacle to romance? Kylo putting her friend in a coma, kidnapping her, murdering her father figure in front of her...

Do those things preclude eventual compassion for and possibly acceptance of Ben as an ally? No. But *romance*? There are so many people I feel compassion for that I wouldn't EVER want to be romantically involved with.

If they really realllly wanted to try to turn compassion into romantic feelings in a way the audience would accept, then Rey's relationship with some grumpy old Jedi Master dude wouldn't be put front-and-center in TLJ - developing her relationship with Kylo would be.

(And undoubtly there IS a reason why that relationship is so important. I just can't personlly think of a non-ReySky reason for prioritizing it over, say, Rey's relationship with her antagonist. Unless it's one big Saving Private Solo strategy session )

Not superfluous from what Im reading.

And no. I'd say his social media behavior wouldn't be completely contrary to the ST ("Folks, Kylo is a hard-hearted a$$", etc). Liking art - heck, even blatantly romantic Reylo art - is not contrary. I mean, I'm 100% ReySky and I download super-cute, super-pretty Reylo art once in a while

But if there's something about the movie RJ/LFL wants us to know, it will be in interviews, official posters, etc. I see plenty of "sympathetic!Kylo." I see plenty of "Luke+Rey = important" and "Luke=/=all smiles and cuddles." I see ZERO Reylo.

I'll attach the screenshots. You don't associate an intended endgame of a movie you're involved with the words "potentially abusive." Whether or not you're "just giving your personal opinion." No matter the context. Period. Full-stop. (Btw, *I* don't share this opinion, personally, but that isn't relevant to the point I'm making. I'm just pointing to it as an indication that the SG doesn't have Reylo in mind as an endgame because those tweets are not only contrary to that endgame, they're harmful PR-wise if Reylo were the endgame.)

Why would he mean that facitiously?

One might think it's odd that RJ wants us to feel sympathy for a grown man who killed his own father, too, but apparently he does. In that context, no, I don't find it strange.

RJ didn't use "sweetheart" as a term of endearment/affectionate form of address a la "Sweetheart, can you cut me a piece of cake?" More likely he meant "a particularly lovable or pleasing person." If Kylo were not being portreyed sympathetically, I'd interpret that as sarcasm. But he is, so I can't.

I also really don't think he had Reylos (or any theory "faction" in mind when he posted that. RJ is a director, not a scholar and aficionado of current SW fandom trends.

You think people who post in this forum are representative of the GA?

But we all know there's a connection. That's been made VERY clear, in the movie and elsewhere. And it's consistant with every parentage theory.

And yeah, dumb. My opinion.

It's so often brought up in the context of Reylo as evidence that Reylo could/will happen *shrug* though I know Reylo =/= monolithic, true. The comparisons are wholly misplaced. I've seen Zuko from Avatar compared with Kylo, but his crimes weren't as bad and, if I understand correctly, his redemption arc was much more gradual.

Really? I'm guessing you could share a few relevant examples?

I'm going by traditional narrative structure and pacing, here. If you believe the ST is being structured in a way that allows a character to go from mass murder and patricide to love interest over the course of 3 films also focusing on a number of other major characters, I'd love to hear it. I have yet to see a plausible narrative structural theory friendly to the idea of Reylo.

Now, IF they are unrelated, and if Kylo survives, could Ep 9 end with the possibility of romance in the future? Sure, I could see that.

But hopefully this dumpster fire of a parentage theory clash will be resolved in TLJ. We'll all be marching into the theaters like Yooks and Zooks with our butter-side up and butter-side down flags XD

Well, ANYTHING could happen, really...

Hm. I'm guessing the "big twist" of the ST will happen in TLJ? Would make sense, but we have no evidence either way, I don't think? Not sure.

Kylo will play an important role in TLJ, undoubtedly, as one of the young leads. But Rey going from loathing Kylo's guts to having romantic feelings for him during the time he's on Achoo with Rey and Luke? Sounds like the transition would be rather abrupt. Would Kylo be redeemed earlier in the movie? Or would Rey fall for evil!Kylo?

 

I mean, Han and Leia and Zeb and Kallus forged relationships (albeit the latter much less romantic than the former) from being stuck together, so I suppose that's always on the cards.

 

Hey @JoJoPenelli
Check out panda capuccino and little chimura's work on reylo for beautiful art

Spoiler

 

Ok I think they're related and I still think that's gorgeous art!

 

Well..no judgement from my part.
But i feel like i should stat that I personally wouldn't like that if i thought they were related.

 

i'm seeing what you're seeing now and i redacted that. sorry for the confusion. i misread the accompanying text.

that's not what i said. i said it removes the obstacle of him being evil. of course it doesn't erase the evil he's done. but forgiveness is forgiveness. if he is redeemed and if Rey forgives him, then it's not for us to assert our judgment. i mean, we can, but that's immaterial to the story that could unfold.

agreed, but that doesn't make it impossible.

no, that's not how storytelling works.
romance doesn't have to be some big deal kissy be-all-end-all here.
we agree they have a connection.
i'm saying it's entirely possible for that connection to develop into something stronger.
it's not the point of the ST. it's lagniappe.

i'm not following this.

i didn't say it was contrary. huh?

i didn't say it was part of some "official" program of reveals or spoilers or hints either.

so Matt Martin says he does not approve people being involved in abusive relationships, but shipping Rey and Ren Ben is okay. then he defends the ship against someone who suggests it's "potentially abusive". and your read on that is that Matt Martin is what? that he's associating the character as being "potentially abusive"?
oh dear.

bingo. that's my point. he wouldn't.
so why pick this particular word.

i don't know what he's thinking. it's still a charged word.

i think we're as fair a petrie dish as any other. the fans can't agree on this topic. the GA cares even less. they don't/won't have all these qualms about Rey's parentage or Ben's redemption. if Lucasfilm feeds them a satisfying story, it could be about brain-eating maggots who like to eat Taco Bell and plot a heist and they'll accept it. good storytelling is good storytelling. yes, there a some "guidelines" but there are no rules ~ and many great stories break the rules anyway.

i didn't say it wasn't. you're the one who won't concede that a romance is possible.

any movie in which two people fall in love. i'm not saying people exactly like Rey and Ben, i'm just talking about love stories in general. again: if Ben is redeemed and Rey forgives him, his past evil is moot, and there is no obstacle to them falling in love like people always do in movies.

and i'm going by the repeated comments that the ST is going to do something different, something unexpected.
and i don't have any problem with murderer going to love interest over the course of three films because i'm not stuck on some concept of absolutes in storytelling.
i can conceive that it could work. and again, it doesn't even have to be the point of the story. it's just a natural extension of a connection they already have.

see? it's conceivable. why are we even going back and forth if you agree to this?

amen.

that's all i have been saying.

 

I dont think there will be a love intrest between Rey and Kylo. But it could happen (if they aren't related or anything). Hatred is a very passionate emotion. I've been in a relationship where we went from hating each other's guts to, definitely not hating each other, then back to hating each other. However I don't think Rey is the type to fall victim to her passion. I could be wrong.
I read someplace the love story will be small, so anything dealing with Rey will be huge. So I think it will be Rose and Finn.

 

Then we can agree that anything is possible.

Although "possible" =/= realistically likely compared to alternative outcomes.

And position is that, although possible, Reylo is realistically unlikely compare to alternative outcomes.

But if you're simple arguing "possible," then yeah, no argument here.

 

So about the previous trilogies and romance.

The 2nd film in PT ended with the couple getting married and tragedy of course struck in the third film.

The 2nd film in OT ended with tragedy for the couple. (Han in carbonite and captured). And a happy reunion occurred in the third film.


So whoever is the romantic couple in TLJ, what will their status be at the end of the film? And how will it change in Episode IX?

 

well so much for progress. : D

while i think a romance isn't any less likely compared to other outcomes, i don't actually care enough to pursue this ~ hahahaha

i was more interested in the marketing and social media treatment of the characters as easing the way for Ben's redemption (and how that potentially could ease the way for a palatable attraction/romance). in an interesting way, your tweets from Matt whoever-that-guy-is-but-assuming-he's-connected satisfied my curiosity that people at Lucasfilm aren't supporting antagonism against Kylo Ren specifically and (whether inadvertent or deliberately) Rey & Ben as a "thing".

does it mean anything? who knows. they're just the people making it happen.

 

Oh yeah, don't think they're being shy at ALL re Kylo. I was actually surprised by the telegraphing in TFA because I thought they might go for redemption as a twist, but perhaps they doubted most people would buy it, considering who his parents are!

Re: the marketing and romance - They seem to be pushing FinnRose hard at times but I don't see any materials yet suggestive of romance, and Rose isn't styled "romantically" (think Leia in ESB, or Padme in the PT, generally).

It's an interesting contrast to the OT and especially PT. Romance hasn't really been something they've hid? Not that the representative sample is terribly large.

IF Rey is unrelated, and Kylo survives, the idea that Ep 9 ends with romance as a future possibility, or with there being some affection between Rey and Kylo does not seem as unlikely to me as a true romance plot. But I think they're related, so of course I don't think anything like that is likely in the context of how I view the ST, of course

 

I voted Finn and Rey, Finn and Rose, and Finn and Poe. Finn will get a kiss from all three then be divided on who he should pursue.