Rose's line and kiss...

Rey is going to be a Jedi. The Jedi Order will need to evolve, but in what way is unclear.

The notion of darkness rises and light to meet it doesn't mean power. It means there will be someone with the WILL to challenge the other. Rey IS NOT as powerful as Kylo yet. I know the fans can't seem to grasp this because they only see a girl that can lift rocks, but it's all in the films. Rey takes on ONE Praetorian Guard in combat while Kylo takes on THREE! Rey get's schooled by Snoke and has her mind read. Kylo was able to keep his intentions from Snoke and killed him.

Let's try not to get too off topic since this is the Finn/Rose Kiss thread. Not another Rey's powers debate.

 

Never Never Never which is Good! I hope finn is killed off soon as the next film starts.

He already did that with rey u can call them siblings and friends but he learned that already with rey...The relationship with finn and rose was forced for the purpose of taking the narrative away from his relationship with rey..not everyone believed finn and rey were brother and sister the kisss with rose was forced upon finn who clearly didn't know it was coming was totally detached romatically.

 

Why do you hate Finn?

 

TFA clearly established Finn is as "someone who cares" :
_ he prefer risking escaping the FO rather than hurting peole
_ he runs to rescue total stranger when they get mugged in the streets
His fears prevented him from doing more, but he faced them thanks to Rey.

And when this attachment started to blind him, Han Solo himself quickly addressed it :
with his sermon "People are counting on us, the Galaxy is counting on us" (this was Han's very last lesson, BTW), and Finn quickly re-focused after that speech.
(and the movie previously showed that, when Han lectures him, he listens : when he sermons him about lying to Rey, he comes clean to her less than 5 min later)

Finn came into TLJ with 99 problems, but "not caring" or "caring too much about Rey" were NOT among them.
Adressing those was just a COLOSSAL waste of screen-time*, and only downplayed the qualities Finn already showed or learned in TFA. Worse, it basically retconed Han's very last lesson : just that part is a sin in itself.

* and, unlike Rian, JJ didn't need to introduce 2 otherwise pointless character, nor create unecessary detours just to craft his arc.

 

I like all the scene:

First, there is a lot of adrenaline and suspense when Finn was about to commit suicide (sacrifice).

Rose saving Finn (because he is a great character and charismatic, he doesnt needs to die so soon). After that I really enjoyed the Rose's message. And the kiss was about friendship and love, not necessarely romantic affair in my opinion.

 

I'm all for the debate of whether Finn needed this arc with Rose. Personally, I think you could have him grow without the added romantic stuff with Rose. If it were me, I would have had Finn, Poe and BB-8 teamed up for one plot line. You could see Finn and Poe help each other grow. I wasn't a big fan of the mutiny stuff either, but I get what they were trying to accomplish.

 

This is a GREAT post I wish I could like it twice.

Finn demonstrated ad nauseum that he cared about things other than himself, and so to hear people repeatedly state that Rose taught him this lesson finally punctuated with the kiss... it's like TFA actually didn't count (or that they're trying to justify what was obviously a "swing and a miss" on Finn's development in TLJ). The kiss was a fan service to those who wanted assurance that FinnRey wouldn't be a thing in the future. He had already decided he was with the Resistance before this and he had already risked it all to save what he cared about before this movie.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 31, 2017 ---

Poe's absence would've been noticed. Finn was up walking around like a zombie wrapped in a stuck water balloon and people didn't notice. Finn going and Poe staying made sense (from that perspective) though from a camaraderie stand point it would make sense for Poe and Finn to go.

 

So we shouldn’t listen to him when he says “I’m just here to get Rey”? That was at the end of the film. The only reason he stuck around earlier was because he saw Rey get kidnapped by Kylo and wanted to get her back.

I’m trying to understand when his motivations changed from it being about Rey to it being about the Resistance in TFA? Again, he’s not all in until TLJ.

 

You're just completely ignoring what happened mere seconds after that line....

 

Really what happened? He says Solo, we’ll use the Force. That’s it! That’s all! Do you think Finn would have helped them take the shields down on Starkiller if Rey wasn’t there? If you do you weren’t paying attention.

 

I think the point I'm making is bigger than what you're addressing. My point was that Finn cared about others other than himself prior to TLJ and prior to the end of TFA. I see a lot of people giving Rose credit for something that, if TFA is to be believed, she had nothing to do with.

My 2nd point, Finn cares most about Rey and he goes through out most of TFA and TLJ trying to save what he loved. So to suggest that this is something that Rose taught him by bumping his speeder at the last second also seems dubious.

Your point seems to be about when Finn cared about the Resistance. That's a cause/movement. Finn cared about people long before this but it seems like people are conflating the two (i.e. once he cares about the Resistance he cares about other people... not true). That notwithstanding, I don't think anyone knows the exact moment Finn commits to the Resistance, we just know by the time he fights Phasma the decision had been made. Thus his reference to Rebel Scum.

Finally I'd like to point out that during TFA, once Finn reunites with Rey on SKB, they don't immediately cut and run... why not? The chips were down. The Resistance was being shot to pieces. SKB was getting ready to fire, Finn should have said, "Rey this isn't our conflict let's just run" right? Doesn't matter if she would have agreed, it's what he should have said if the Finn in the beginning of TLJ is a credible representation of where he is. But he isn't.

 

That's only before Han's sermon, at this point, yeah he wasn't thinking straight.
THEN, Han's lesson happen.
After that, we see Finn pullling his head out of his a**, and thinking straight again.
At that point, he stoped his incoherent blabbering, and really focused on devising a viable plan.

There is clearly a BEFORE and an AFTER Han's sermon. The movie showed us multiple time Finn leaning from Han Solo, and that secne was the prime example of that.
So stop using Finn's state of mind "before Han's sermon" as your main argument : that's "outdated data". Han's sermon did happen, and did affect Finn.

 

Saying Rose taught him to care about people would be a pretty narrow view. That isn't what I'm saying at least. I think Rose helped him care about the cause. She opened his eyes to the injustice in the galaxy. She showed him how it's affecting people liker herself, her sister, and the kids on Canto Bight.
Prior to TLJ, Finn may have cared about people, but he was only willing to act to save himself and Rey.

Finn wouldn't have done that either. He knew going to Starkiller that his mission was not only to get Rey, but to take the shield down. He wasn't going to abandon Han and Chewie in that moment. Nobody is suggesting that.

The bottom line is Finn did progress thanks to both Rey and Rose. The people around us shape who we are. To say Rose had no positive impact would be incorrect.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 31, 2017 ---

Han's sermon? "The Resistance is counting on us, the galaxy is counting on us". "That's not how the force works!"

Again, everyone has had an effect on Finn. But to say that Rose didn't help move his character forward is crazy.

 

Actually I never thought about it in those terms because of the obvious symmetry of power whilst tugging for the lightsaber.
But you are absolutely right; same raw power, different tiers of expertise.

 

Ok so here's where I'll agree with you was the intent of the movie - that Rose was supposed to help Finn care about the cause. What others are suggesting is much more encompassing (and incorrect IMO).

Where you and I will diverge in opinion is probably the idea that she opened his eyes to the injustice in the galaxy. He is a victim of the injustice of the FO. He was taken as a child from a family he'll never know. He sees the Jakku slaughter and refuses to participate. He knows what injustice looks like prior to TFA, and then at the beginning of TFA.

And again, I know it's the movies intent to say it's Canto Bight that's difference maker but (for me) this wasn't thought through very well. Because what we all learn, alongside Finn, is that there are people who are being crushed beneath the hill of industry (specifically military industry) in the name or profit and prosperity for a few. It would be a FAR better launch pad for Finn to specifically to join the Resistance to see the rich and elite were fianaceers of the First Order exclusively.

DJ's whole monologue about not joining is because it's all the combatants (in this case the Resistance and the First Order) in warfare that drove the machine that were crushing people - how does it logically follow that Finn should then decide the problem is the FO? As far as the suffering of those on Canto Bight the FO AND the Resistance are the problem. They aren't moral equivalents elsewhere through out the galaxy, but on Canto Bight they are equal parts of the problem.
So for me, Canto Bight and Rose's story should have either conveyed that the suffering there was exclusively due to the actions of the FO, or some other event should have convinced him that he should join the Resistance.

 

If Finn was thought out more clearly he would leave with Rey or leave her behind. DJ could have been thought out a lot better as well, but they wanted to make him a scoundrel so it would be easier for Finn to turn to the Resistance. I like the fact that DJ is about not joining, because Finn shouldn't either. He spent his whole life taking orders to serve others. In the span of a week this guy is now ready to die for another cause that he knows nothing about. DJ could have told him good is in the eyes of the beholder. Who is to say who is good? The bad guy will say he is good. The good guys do bad things too, and justify what they do for the greater good.

This kind of writing serves no one, because it is based on this silly fantasy that a black man will serve the cause of white people without anything in it for him.
Anyone that spent their whole life doing something they didn't want to to do would not put their lives on the line for another group a few weeks later. Canto Bight was nothing but a bunch of money, time, travel, and hard work foolishly spent for the wrong reasons. What I just said about DJ cost nothing except original brain cells.

 

The kiss was to show Finn he really got groupes that care about him Rose and her sister were fans of Finn. As Rose said Paige talked about what he did on Star Killer base.

 

I think the difference is that Finn knows all about the evil of the FO. He doesn't realize that corruption, evil, etc are not exclusive to the FO. There are children treated as slaves, there are animals that are abused, there are people willing to do very bad things in the name of money.

Unfortunately seeing the First Order as exclusive beneficiaries of the money in the galaxy wouldn't be very realistic. Even in our own world that isn't the case. War is big business. Finn sees at the end that it's not just about fighting for what is right or wrong, but for the people and things you care most about. The ideals of freedom are worth fighting for.

Finn learned that there are no loyalties when it comes to making money. That is what DJ was there to illustrate. Finn chooses to side with those fighting for freedom, not the oppressors like the First Order. Arms Dealers are profiteers that sell to whoever is buying so fall into neither category. I'm not sure they needed to illustrate that, but they did. In the end Finn rejects DJ's notion. That's the point at which we see his growth. He's not buying what DJ is saying.

 

I don't disagree but my point is why would his knowledge of the suffering of those due to corruption and profiteering cause him to align WITH the Resistance and AGAINST the FO? It doesn't. It's a political statement (with which I don't necessarily disagree) but the talking point is that this is what advances Finn's commitment to the Resistance. How? Where? He's being shown that a cost of war is suffering of innocents. Why logically would that information compel him to choose to join one of the combatants that contribute to that suffering?

Finn already fights for the people he cares most about; he doesn't learn this in TLJ he learns it in TFA. This was precisely my point from earlier. People are crediting TLJ for development that has already occurred. The fact that TLJ ignores that doesn't mean it gets to be ignored in the subsequent analysis IMO.

Finn learned that both sides of the conflict fueled the suffering he witnessed on Canto Bight; that to me does not serve as a compelling catalyst (or a catalyst at all) for joining one side over the other. The fact that he rejects DJ's notion doesn't mean the notion is untrue. If you are an inhabitant on Canto Bight suffering, do you really care that your oppressors are neither the First Order or Resistance?

Bottom line, I believe I understand what you and many others are saying; the suggestion is that this movie effectively moves Finn from only caring about Rey to caring about a cause. I do not deny that that was the intent. My point of contention is that:

1. they ignored his previous development in the process (he already cared about other people)
2. they did a really sloppy job logically connecting his Canto Bight visit to his allegiance to the Resistance

Finn's progress does not logically or coherently flow in TLJ; and it conflicts with TFA's development. The intent of the movie does not match the execution IMO.

 

Don't over think this. It's not about picking sides. He did that already in TFA. He saw the FO willing to murder billions and billions of people. It's more about should he fight or run. I believe him seeing the suffering of the oppressed helped him decide that he's fighting for more them himself and Rey.

Finn cares most about Rey...the one friend he has! That's who he fought for in TFA. Helping Han with the shields was part of helping Rey. I said this before...He would not have gone to Starkiller if Rey wasn't there. Think about the first words out of his mouth when he sees Poe. It's not, "Hey Poe I'm glad you made it out of that attack on Starkiller alive. You're my boy Poe." No, it's WHERES REY?!!!

I disagree here. He learns that there are no loyalties in arms dealing and war profiting. Not that the Resistance is fueling suffering because that isn't what is happening. Again, the arms dealers are not on either side. It just so happens that their money is being made from an oppressive regime.

I feel like they did an ok job illustrating this. It may take a few viewings to catch all of the dialog and imagery to connect the two, but I feel like it is in the film and presented logically.