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RT Audience Score Rigged Again

Discussion in 'Solo' started by DailyPlunge, May 20, 2018.

  1. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    of course this is true. i still have my Premiere magazines with Qui Gon and Queen Amidala on the covers. don't have the Qui Gon doll that my mother gave me XD or even copies of the DVDs for any of these movies. and for about 10 years i didn't have copies of any Star Wars movies. my childhood OT toys have long been relegated to the bomb shelter, and i was so cut off from the franchise that i didn't even know they were making TFA until i saw a banner for it at Comic Con in San Diego in 2015. and even then i didn't care.

    i never went on message boards or crusaded for boycotts or complained about any of it, but i didn't want anything to do with it either.

    now it's ruining my life in an entirely different way. XD

    again, i get the depth of emotion behind all the angst. Star Wars was really critical to me as a kid who grew up with a less than stellar childhood.
    to see it "run off the rails" was quite painful because i was ill-equipped to deal with it psychologically at the time.

    self-awareness and perspective are privileges.

    i didn't love everything about TLJ and the handful of things i dislike are very potent to me: rage-inducing almost ~ ha!
    but only almost. because as @cawatrooper said, how we respond to something is a choice. and i feel grateful to recognize that.
     
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  2. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I did the same thing. I basically just phased Star Wars out. I watched some Clone Wars at the advice of a friend. And played my old games. But it wasn't a big part of my life like it was growing up. And I think that's part of it. I wasn't 10 any more. I don't know if I want Star Wars to consistently make me feel like I did when I was seeing the OT for the first time. I don't mind it occasionally. You'd hope the outrage post-PT would be a warning sign for people to calm down and see how toxic it was lol
     
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  3. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    It's interesting to hear, @RoyleRancor and @FN-3263827, that both of you kinda phased out of Star Wars during that time.
    I pretty much did, too.

    I was super into it from about 1999-2005 (the prequel years, of course) and continued to play Battlefront on and off for a while, as it was one of my favorite games.

    I got a copy of Knights of the Old Republic in 2007 and enjoyed it as a video game, and the next year I got the sequel.

    In 2008 I went to watch The Clone Wars with my little siblings, and we'd usually watch new episodes on Friday nights if I wasn't doing anything else (which, as I got older in high school, became less and less common). Later, I though The Force Unleashed looked kinda neat, but I never ended up getting interested enough to pick it up.

    It really wasn't until I saw The Force Awakens that my almost decade-long period of fan-hibernation ended. I was back in Star Wars for the long haul, and have been ever since. Now I'm into the TV shows, novels, comics, board games, all of it. I'm more of a fan than I ever was before, and while I don't collect toys anymore (I have a very small Funko collection, but that's mostly it) I do collect minis for the FFG games. Really, the only thing missing is a good video game at this point.

    But yeah, kinda off topic, but I'm glad to hear that experience isn't totally uncommon for people here.
     
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  4. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    FWIW, I don't think it's off topic but rather on topic considering this is really a discussion of the nature of fans...but that's just me ;)

    I had a whole period 2002-2008 where I was so wrapped up in sports that I didn't have time for my other passions. I never did take those guitar lessons I wanted lol. Not enjoying the PT just made it easier. Marvel comics were garbage and comic book movies were laughably bad almost across the board.

    It wasn't until I saw them announce the cast for the new Star Wars that I got back into this specifically.
     
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  5. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    part of that is generational? i think part of that is also that you have to want to love it for itself, and not for you.
    for every one of us who hates JarJar, there's a child out there who thinks he's the best! XD

    the ST makes me feel like a kid again in the best way possible and has actually been a powerful piece of healing for me.
    but i appreciate that it's not going to work that way for everyone.

    i wish for the fans that there was less infighting.
    let me love Starkiller even if it is a stupid Death Star "ripoff"; it's got snow and it's cool and it's the final resting place of the greatest nerf-herder who ever lived.
    in turn, you can love that Geonosis arena thing with all the lightsabers, KotoR, and all the lava of Mustafar.
    or whatever floats your boat. : D
    same here! i never cared anything about the EU back then. now i'm all-in. i can't get enough. : D
     
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  6. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Oh for sure, me as well.

    The new canon brought me back, but I've been enjoying Legends alongside it.

    Contrary to what some believe, it certainly hasn't gone anywhere!
     
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    TFA made me feel like a kid again for sure.
    TLJ made me have to think and process things.

    Both wonderful things from movies. I like them working together.

    And technically Han Solo's final resting place is all over the galaxy because well


    ;)
    --- Double Post Merged, May 23, 2018, Original Post Date: May 23, 2018 ---
    Well now you've done it. Now the Legends Gestapo is gonna come and take your books.
     
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  8. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    no, he's right in the middle of the star, dangit.
    i say so and so does the novelization! XD
     
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  9. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    I left the cinema 10 minutes ago.
    Solo is fun but is the weakeast of Disney era (as I said in the other thread).
    Lot of surprises and references.
    Hope you enjoy it!
     
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  10. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    A bit off-topic, so I'll make this brief, but reading through your talks of the PT really pulls at my want to circle back around and try to finally get to an ambitious project I outlined a long time ago - basically, I want to one day take all of the prequels and convert them into black and white 1930's style footage, and convert the sound to 1950's sound quality standards because I've done ad-hoc preliminary tests before and it's pretty remarkable (to me) how much better these films get if you move them to actually look like old film ... since Lucas shot them using old film blocking and pacing methods (...mostly). It's a bit more complicated than just flipping a black and white lens on, but I keep really wanting to see this version in full.

    Anyway, a bit off topic; sorry.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  11. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel General

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    I'm not sure why forcing peaceable folks to have membership in a random drama generating data mining system is a cure. I think I'd rather send a copy of my ID than register on Facebook especially just to give my rating on flicks.

    I'm not seeing why I need to present ID to rate a movie either but it seems less dismissive of the freedom of association than demanding membership to a third party organization of no relation at all.

    I'm annoyed with the zealous hate mongering and lashing out too but I'm not sure how making me sign up for a service I avoid like the plague is going to change much for the better.
     
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  12. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Who is forcing anyone to do anything?
    If sites like RT want their audience rankings to be taken more serious, they have to create legit registration.
    If you don't want to don't.

    If these targeted campaigns keep popping up, it's something they should consider.
     
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  13. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    nod.gif
    Nice find.
    It seems Rian is happier angering those he thinks unable or unwilling to accept his story rather than receiving their adoration.
    To those who interpret this as a burn I'd say it's a fair reading!
    There are some funny negative audience reviews out there too...

    Review 2.png

    Review 9.png

    Review 8.png

    :D:D:D
    Yeah these campaigns are waged with the fervor of a religious notion - zealots who treat their ideal representation as a deity.
    For some it's SW head-canon or an older incarnation.
    For others the sacred representation is a bell curve - eh @Jayson !:p (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
    I'm uncertain of how much merit lies in this particular analysis but I'm probably missing something.
    Or perhaps my school grading (and historical awareness) has left me a little too skeptical about bell-curve representations of representations and the ideologies/assumptions behind them! :eek:

    But don't get me wrong, I love your data-porn.
    Maybe I'm just overly wary of treating value as something scarce and apportioning in order to obtain a pre-specified distribution.
     
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  14. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    So the data distribution doesn't tell you which site best aligns with your taste; that's impossible.
    It also doesn't say anything about the quality of the ratings themselves. The ratings could be made by thousands of people who hardly care about the ratings that they're providing, or don't take any interest in providing good quality and consistent ratings.

    All it does is say that you're likely to run into a given ratio of ratings compared to other ratings.

    For example, on RT's Audience reviews, you're about twice as likely to see a rating between 60 and 80 as you are ratings between 20 and 40; the same is true of 40 to 60 compared against 20 to 40.
    Meanwhile, you're about as likely to see a rating of 40 to 60 a you are 60 to 80.

    So there's a lopsidedness in how many of which kinds of ratings exist when you look across lots of samples.

    Think of it this way.
    If you gather a bunch of surveys about one store, then it's perfectly reasonable that you could see this kind of lopsided result. Folks in their hundreds may very well just really love that store.
    However, if you survey 200 hundred different kinds of stores with hundreds of surveys per store, then it would be a little surprising to find that everyone likes just about any store, and that, therefore, the data is lopsided to favor positive reviews.
    It's a bit unnatural to believe that people behave this way across such a wide spectrum.

    It's more normal behavior that when you're checking hundreds of stores and hundreds of surveys per store, that the amount of really bad ratings will probably be within the ballpark of the really good ratings, and the dominant amount of reviews will favor the middle area of the data.
    Again, when you zoom in to any one store, that changes, but when you're looking at hundreds of stores, that collective picture should relatively evenly distribute.
    And that's because just like there's those stores that almost everyone loves, there's those stores that almost everyone hates, but generally speaking, most people are moderately bothered or moderately pleased with a given store.

    If that's still too abstract, think of it this way. It's not odd that you could find that Americans rate beef really high, right?
    And it's also not too hard to accept that Americans, on average, probably rate Kimchi (look it up if you don't know it) pretty low.
    However, if what we're looking at is 200 hundred different kinds of food, then we probably shouldn't see a bunch of ratings piled up on one side or the other because it's pretty unlikely that Americans love almost every kind of food we ask about almost equally, and that further still, that there's almost no food thought to be just absolutely terrible.

    (@Sargon I know this isn't how RT Tomatometer works, but that's why I used the audience score here for the example; the Tomatometer still has a distribution problem, but for a much more advanced reason than this, and I don't want to get into that here. ;) )

    Now, let's flip over to Metacritic.
    You're about as likely to see 60 to 80 as you are to see 20 to 40, and about one and a half times as likely to see 40 to 60 than 20 to 40.
    And you're about one and a third more likely to see 40 to 60 than 60 to 80.

    That's a heck of a lot more balanced, meaning you'll have a better range of ratings. That way when you see a higher value rating, you can know that it is of actual value.

    If everyone is running around with a million dollars in their pockets, then that million dollars isn't actually as impressive as it would be if everyone's running around with 20 dollars bills in their pockets, right?
    It's a similar kind of principle.

    If you're lopsided, then it's somewhat like you're effectively devaluing the ratings that are lopsided to.
    All that's happened is that you've moved the middle of your rating system to a higher rating number, but a number that is now worth less in actual value.

    So now, on RT Audience, my 80 to 100 compares against 20 to 40, 1 to 20 might as well be ignored outright, and my middle is somewhere between 60 to 70.

    Meanwhile, again, over at Metacritic, the 40 to 60 range easily takes the middle and highest volume, and each subsequent set of 20 values mostly levels off against it's counter part on the other side of the 40 to 60 range (meaning, 80 to 100 is roughly on par with 1 to 20, and 20 to 40 is roughly on par with 40 to 60).

    We don't have data inflation.


    Again, this doesn't say anything about whether or not your taste will align with Metacritic; no.
    It just means that if you're looking for a "fair" spread of opinions, then that's where you would go to see what it's like.
    That means if you just want to know what critics on average thought, that's valid.

    RT won't tell you what people thought on average; it'll tell you that a bunch of people like a bunch of movies on average.

    I hope that helps in some way.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #114 Jayson, May 24, 2018
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
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  15. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Thanks for the patient response man.

    I think my concerns were more about the assumptions involved and other possible explanations for differences in the data sets.

    I get how broad biological data, social data, and a meta aggregator like Meta Critic would likely show a bell-curve distribution.
    In situations like your store example I'd expect a bell curve (probably because the industry relies on customer service and feedback and would cater and respond to it's average shopper).

    I guess I just wouldn't assume the same from RT's data or IMDb for that matter.
    You can probably understand why a layman like me would hear some alarm bells when data is collected from experts and, after the distribution doesn't confirm some interpreters expectations, they assume the data or curators are at fault!

    I'd be curious whether other factors like
    • their small and diverse sample size
    • or their data set that includes niche foreign, art, and cult movies
    • or their peculiar in-house algorithim
    contribute to the sunken center.

    Or maybe art like movies garners strong and divisive ranges in a way that othermore quantitative biological or social data doesn't.

    I don't mean to drag anything off topic though.
    I'm a bit of a Contrarian and my brain often gravitates toward the limitations and exceptions.
    It just feels like one of those things where there may be more to know here.
     
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  16. Rieekan

    Rieekan SWNN Hawkeye
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    Just to mention it, I wouldn't even discuss gauss distribution or points when I don't know the group. There are some ratings that don't even have the slightest verification check, you can enter via other bot infested social media channels. If the premise is wrong that conclusion can't get right.
     
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  17. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    So, he did 214 films, but he did a sanity check against a few thousand to ensure that the same bell curve appeared in the sample rating site at both scales, and it did.

    As to the films that were pulled - it was a pile of random sampling, meaning, he doesn't manually select them (which is the only way to accurately do this).

    10 Cloverfield Lane, 13 Hours, A Cure for Wellness, A Dog's Purpose, A Hologram for the King, A Monster Calls, A Street Cat Named Bob, Alice Through the Looking Glass, Allied, Amateur Night, Anthropoid, Approaching the Unknown, Arrival, Arsenal, Assassin's Creed, Bad Moms, Bad Santa 2, Barbershop: The Next Cut, Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice, Beauty and the Beast, Before I Fall, Before the Flood, Ben-Hur, Bitter Harvest, Blair Witch, Bleed for This, Blood Father, Bridget Jones's Baby, Busanhaeng, Cabin Fever, Cafe Society, Captain America: Civil War, Captain Fantastic, Cell, Central Intelligence, Collateral Beauty, Collide, Come and Find Me, Criminal, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon: Sword of Destiny, Deadpool, Deepwater Horizon, Dirty Grandpa, Doctor Strange, Don't Breathe, Eddie the Eagle, Elle, Elvis & Nixon, Everybody Loves Somebody, Everybody Wants Some!!, Exposed, Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, Fences, Fifty Shades Darker, Fifty Shades of Black, Finding Dory, Fist Fight, Florence Foster Jenkins, Free State of Jones, Genius, Get a Job, Get Out, Ghostbusters, Gods of Egypt, Gold, Hacksaw Ridge, Hail, Caesar!, Hands of Stone, Hell or High Water, Hidden Figures, How to Be Single, Hunt for the Wilderpeople, Hush, I, Daniel Blake, I.T., Ice Age: Collision Course, Imperium, In a Valley of Violence, Incarnate, Independence Day: Resurgence, Inferno, Jack Reacher: Never Go Back, Jackie, Jane Got a Gun, Jason Bourne, John Wick: Chapter 2, Julieta, Keanu, Keeping Up with the Joneses, Kickboxer, Kingsglaive: Final Fantasy XV, Kong: Skull Island, Kubo and the Two Strings, Kung Fu Panda 3, La La Land, Lights Out, Lion, Live by Night, Logan, London Has Fallen, Love & Friendship, Loving, Manchester by the Sea, Manhattan Night, Marauders, Masterminds, Max Steel, Me Before You, Mechanic: Resurrection, Midnight Special, Mike and Dave Need Wedding Dates, Miracles from Heaven, Misconduct, Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children, Moana, Money Monster, Moonlight, Morgan, Mr. Church, My Big Fat Greek Wedding 2, Neighbors 2: Sorority Rising, Nerve, Nine Lives, Nocturnal Animals, Norm of the North, Now You See Me 2, Office Christmas Party, Ouija: Origin of Evil, Our Kind of Traitor, Passengers, Patriots Day, Pele: Birth of a Legened, Pete's Dragon, Precious Cargo, Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, Race, Resident Evil: The Final Chapter, Ride Along 2, Rings, Risen, Rogue One: A Star Wars Story, Sausage Party, Shut In, Sing, Sing Street, Skiptrace, Sleepless, Snowden, Split, Star Trek Beyond, Storks, Suicide Squad, Sully, Swiss Army Man, T2 Trainspotting, Table 19, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Out of the Shadows, The 5th Wave, The 9th Life of Louis Drax, The Accountant, The Angry Birds Movie, The Autopsy of Jane Doe, The BFG, The Boss, The Boy, The Brothers Grimsby, The Bye Bye Man, The Choice, The Confirmation, The Conjuring 2, The Darkness, The Disappointments Room, The Duel, The Edge of Seventeen, The Finest Hours, The Forest, The Founder, The Girl on the Train, The Girl with All the Gifts, The Great Wall, The Huntsman: Winter's War, The Infiltrator, The Jungle Book, The Last Word, The Legend of Tarzan, The LEGO Batman Movie, The Light Between Oceans, The Magnificent Seven, The Neon Demon, The Nice Guys, The Other Side of the Door, The Perfect Match, The Purge: Election Year, The Secret Life of Pets, The Shack, The Shallows, The Space Between Us, The Take (Bastille Day), The Whole Truth, The Wild Life, Triple 9, Trolls, Under the Shadow, Underworld: Blood Wars, War Dogs, War on Everyone, Warcraft, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Why Him?, X-Men: Apocalypse, XX, xXx: Return of Xander Cage, Zoolander 2, Zootopia

    It's a pretty good cross section of films, I think.

    As to algorithms; he's not running any.
    He supplied the raw data, and I looked and the only thing he has is just the raw values next to each film from each rating site.
    That's what I used to populate the blue graphs that I made (he used python to draw his graphs).

    Now, IMDB actually does get a bell curve, but that curve is a bit bias to higher values.
    If I was over there at IMDB, I would be suggesting that we make weighted corrections to score aggregates to pull them down more until we see a downward drift at some point in the future, because they have a good distribution pattern...just an inflation issue.

    RT Audience (which doesn't have the dip, but has the lean to the upper values) has a problem that's basically telling you that the dominant thing that folks do at RT is show up to rate high values. Secondarily, you can see that there are two spike patterns in the very low end which indicate that folks also show up to just bomb titles, and it's very specific with the range those bombs happen.

    The RT Critic has a different problem that's more related to it being a statement of how many critics by percent had a favorable position; it's not really a rating.
    So that v-shape (inverted bell curve) is even more problematic because it essentially means that almost everything is relatively the same probability, except for the middle...which is weird if you think about it.
    There's relatively equal probability that a moderately small amount of critics will like films as there is that a high count of critics will like films, but a lower chance of an even divide?

    That's....not...very useful - for a diversification position, that is (it might be useful to you as a viewer).
    That's a teeter-totter effect; Lots of love, or hardly much...nothing in between?
    That's an unusual pattern of behavior for hundreds of reviews folded into hundreds of binary film ratings represented as percents.

    And even if you can't get that distribution with that method, it should probably give you pause on whether it's a good plan to go with that metric, because it's polarizing opinion representations.
    Either a lot of people are for it, or only some people are for it, and no real mass quantity of a decent amount being for it.

    Always willing to discuss!
    Hope it helps. :)

    And again, this doesn't mean "Only Metacritic matters; all others are garbage!".
    No, because that would be a Bayesian logical error. To answer that, you'd have to personally run this test yourself where you pick your films and check your rating against these site's ratings and check how often you agreed with which site the most.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  18. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Me too.
    Sorry, I was referring to the algorithm of the RT rating.
    This is one of the things I don't get.
    So the users tend to favor a higher rating on IMDb.
    Why not just let the data speak for itself as it is?
    What's with the desire to alter the results, their scale, or their weighting so they fit into a preconceived visual representation?
     
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  19. Sargon

    Sargon Rebelscum

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    I think in the case of IMDB it's simply just a matter of people only voting for movies you like. You watch a movie and like it, you go to IMDB to learn more about the cast and crew and trivia and links to some reviews and articles on it, and while you are there you might as well give it a vote. You see a movie and it's lousy, you never think about it again and never visit its IMDB page. That's why I've always liked Metacritic, critics are assigned to watch films, they know what makes a good movie and what doesn't aside from personal taste, and so you have to rate the ones you hated, the ones you are totally indifferent to and would never want to write about were it not for the fact that you are being paid to do so, and also the ones you think are awesome.
     
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  20. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

    Joined:
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    Oh, it is standing for itself at present.

    The thing is, how would you know that IMDB favors higher values on average and that when you see 7.5 or 8, that it's not statistically a high value but instead rather "normal"?

    It's like I just handed you money that reads 750 on it.
    Oh, that's a high number so it must be good.
    And then you find out the exchange rate later and realize that 750 is equal to about 500.

    I mean now you know, and you can use IMDB with that in mind, but most people don't know.
    They just look at 7, 8, and 9's and think they are hard to get because they are high, so it must be good.
    Well, maybe. But then again, IMDB's audience tends to LIKE a lot of things a bit higher, and they don't tend to think poorly of too many films.

    So maybe that's how you (proverbial) think of films too, and if so - rockin, but if not, that could be an issue.

    It's like headphones.
    Some headphones have a bass boost on them
    Some don't say they do, but they do.
    You buy them and use them to go make music.
    You take your song and put in your car and the bass is lower. Stupid car speakers!
    No, the problem is that the headphones have a bias in volume and so when the sound goes through something that isn't of that bias, the volume falls for the bass because you made the song's bass volume level setting to the boosted level.

    It's not a HUGE deal; IMDB's is pretty OK - only slightly up. Others are very much up, like RT Audience, and a bit erratic.
    How well do you trust a low score knowing that statistically low scores come in two values on RTA and very few others; that they are basically only often around when something's being bombed in a campaign style?

    RTA is basically like a stereotypical drag queen shopping:
    Love it. Love it. Love it. So good. Cute. Love it. Oh..my..god. LOVE IT! Yes as well. What? OH NO YOU DIDN'T GIRLFRIEND! I HATE YOU! I HATE YOU! I SO HATE YOU! I HOPE YOU GET HPV AND DIE FOR EVEN MAKING ME SEE THIS ATROCITY!
    ...
    Love it. That's a yes. ...


    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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