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Rule of Two: Total Fail?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by SegNerd, Oct 10, 2016.

  1. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    I understand the backstory of the Rule of Two, and I understand Darth Bane's motivation for creating it. But is it just me, or was the Rule of Two pretty much a total biff?

    -The Rule of Two obviously did NOT stop infighting among the Sith: Darth Tyranus (maybe?) tried to betray Darth Sidious, then Sidious betrayed Tyranus, then Sidious betrayed Vader, and then Vader betrayed Sidious... and that's just the relatively few Sith we actually know about.
    -I'm not even sure how succession is supposed to work under the Rule of Two. Is it just expected that the apprentice will eventually kill the master and then take an apprentice of his/her own? Why would anyone want to train someone knowing full well that their purpose is to kill them? Or maybe the plan is just that Sith are supposed to wait for one to die of old age...??
    -If anything, the Rule of Two really only made it easier for the Jedi to destroy the Sith. Even with infighting, I gotta think you would be better off sending an army of Sith to try to fight the Jedi Order, rather than just sending two guys.

    It seems to me that the only way the Rule of Two was actually successful was that it enabled the Sith to hide from the Jedi for a thousand years. But I'm not really sure what that accomplished...
     
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  2. Leahcim Somar

    Leahcim Somar Rebel Official

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    Im guessing that the rule of tw now is more of who is in power. every sith always had an apprentice. I do understand the rule tho. you imagine if the sith did manage to be somewhat like the Jedi's? I think the Siths would over power Jedi's but its more of a balance like they say in the SW storyline. everything has been unrest. the power of the force has not been balance since episode 1. if you think of it the whole story is to restore the balance of the force. Anakin could of restored it in the TCW. Luke left without proper training and was never the one who would restore balance. now with the unknowning of Snoke, there could possibly be other darkside/sith who didnt want to be under the rule of Darth Sidious and maintain the faith. Like Maul. So there has to be one more SITH or 2 from Snoke in order to make Kylo Ren a SITH.
     
  3. GingerByte

    GingerByte Simple Man

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    There is only ever two Sith at once, and whenever an anomaly appears every Sith in existence strives to maintain the Rule of Two. Darth Maul hoped to eliminate both Dooku and Sidious, thus leaving him and Savage as the only two Sith left at the time. Dooku aimed to use his dark acolyte Asajj Ventress (who he had been training in secret as his Sith apprentice) to help him overthrow Sidious. Tyrannus knew that despite having learnt almost everything he could from Sidious, when he made his move against his master, he could not do it alone because of Sidious' years of experience that he did not yet possess. Remember, knowledge and cunning was more important for Sith under the Bane lineage.

    Anakin Skywalker was an anomaly, but he was different as Tyrannus was nothing more than a "false" replacement for Darth Maul. Anakin was slowly taught the bare basics of the Sith doctrine in the span of a decade plus, as he also training to become a Jedi. He never truly became Palpatine's apprentice until he killed Count Dooku.

    It is the nature of the Sith to betray one another, that is why the apprentice is trained from initiation to be smart and not foolish. They must know all the secrets of their master or he must display serious ineptitude before they attack.
    The Sith are selfish, yes, but just like the Jedi they believe in something greater than themselves. They want to live as long as possible, but are also noble enough to accept their inevitable death. The preservation of their order is the most important task in their lives.
    The Sith tried this in the past and it never worked. By only training one apprentice, the successor would become more powerful than the master, and the Sith Lords would become more individually powerful over time. Because of the constant betrayal of the Sith in the past, few achieved their full potential as they would fall early.

    By only having two at a time, the Sith also had to enhance their survival skills. Masking their presence from Jedi and manipulating people became very important skills. This meant that when the time came, the Sith could eliminate the Jedi Order without having to make a single swing. As a result of this, the Sith had become both master warriors and politicians. The Jedi were not master politicians, and as a result could not stop them in this field.
    It meant that when the Sith returned, the Jedi would be ill-equipped due to a millennia of peace. Thus they could be eliminated more easily than before.
     
  4. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    It might help a master be more effective at watching their back?
     
  5. daRinze

    daRinze Force Sensitive

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    I think you watch it by the wrong side ;)
    "The Master owns the knowledge, the Apprentice covets it" : at this time, the Master is greater than the Apprentice.
    The Apprentice's aim is to learn his Master's knowledge, and to become greater than him : so, the Apprentice will be able to overthrow his Master. At this time, that means that the global Sith's knowledge will be greater, because the successor has reached a higher level than his Master, a new level, higher that the preceding one.

    You know: you don't nurture your children in order they will inherit your money when you die.
    You cannot ask: "why would anyone have children, knowing full well that their purpose is to collect their money?". You cannot say that because if you actually think that, you are not a good parent ;) this sentence not a parent's point of view. No children is born "to collect the money of his dad/mom".

    d'you understand? The Apprentice's aim is not "just kill his master". The actual goal is to become greater than him : when the Apprentice will be greater than his Master, when he will be able to overthrow him, that means the Sith Order will globally grow.


    my2cents
     
  6. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    But aren't you just saying exactly the same thing? You told SegNerd that he was looking at it from the wrong side but your words are proof that he is right. No matter how you try to make reason of it, it all goes down to the apprentice wanting to kill the master and nothing more. Do you want more proof? Then look no further than what happened between Palpatine and Plagueis. Sheev had in no way mastered all the knowledge or the secrets that Plagueis knew before his lust for power made him kill his master. Vader's case was even worst as he seemed more like a brute enforcer like Savage Opress than an actual Sith Lord. Vader never did anything that a regular Jedi could't do and he never showed any Sith knowledge either. I fully agree with the OP as the rule of two was silly and it didn't do anything good for the Sith. It makes no sense for Bane to invent said rule to avoid the destruction of the Sith by infighting when the very principal of the rule of two inspires betrayal and infighting between a master and his apprentice. All it took was one apprentice to repent from his evil ways and down went the Sith from Bane's line with all it's secrets, techniques and knowledge.
     
    #6 Amanaman, Oct 21, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
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  7. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    I think that the concept of the rule of two succeeded in the theory that they always maintained two OFFICIAL two sith lords at any given time but they suffered from the same fate of the jedi: arrogance, but they also clouded the jedi's ability to sense them
    .
     
  8. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    What's funny about this though is that we have to ask ourselves how do we see the concept of ''official''. There were many Sith out there even during Palpatine and Vader's rule and the only thing that Palps and Vader had going for them to be called ''true'' Sith was that they were from Bane's line. Plagueis himself said that this line was the one to be considered ''true'' but this in itself may be arrogance speaking as I imagine that other non-Bane Sith would not see themselves as fake Siths. I really doubt that a non-Darth Sith would see Sheev and Vader and say ''Oh wow! There go the official Sith!'' :)
     
  9. Fooled Trooper

    Fooled Trooper Rebel Official

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    Maybe the rule of two is not a fail but PalpatineĀ“s relation to Vader and what Vader was, was reason the rule of two was soon to be doomed. Any other Sith relation aka Master and Apprentice would have worked.
     
  10. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    How do you know there were many other sith?
     
  11. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    Because Plagueis told this to Palpatine when he was training him as his apprentice. One day they were speaking and Plagueis told Palps that indeed there were many other Sith in the galaxy but that he didn't consider them true Sith because they were note from the Bane line. This all happened in the novel Darth Plagueis. Another reason why the rule of two was no good was because there was always infighting and betrayal no matter what Bane had planned. Darth Plagueis own master Darth Tenebrous found him to be unworthy as an apprentice as their visions for the future of the Sith oftenly clashed so he secretly trained another Sith even as he was still training Plagueis. This new apprentice was named Darth Venamis and Tenebrous even told him about Plagueis so that he could one day take him down yet Plagueis knew nothing of the existence of Venamis.

    This is why I agree with the OP. The rule of two did nothing good for the Sith as they were still just like the old Sith trying to destroy one another because their way of thinking and their visions of how the galaxy should be ruled and how the Jedi should be destroyed always clashed with one another. Just as Plagueis disagreed with the way Tenebrous saw things and had him killed, so did Palpatine feel the same way for Plagueis and his lust for power led him to kill him.

    When we see the movies we can also see the same thing as I'm pretty sure that Dooku would have gladly taken on Obi Wan as his new apprentice had he agreed to join him on Geonosis while Palps himself was secretly wooing Anakin to take Dooku's place. He then tried to do the very same thing with Luke and Vader. There is always infighting, plotting and scheming in the Sith even if these are followers of the rule of two so it really makes them no different than when Naga Sadow was one of the ruling Sith Lords.
     
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  12. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Im talking about in-canon .
     
  13. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    Well then if that's the case then we really can't say anything cause everything we know about the Sith except what's in the movies, CW, Rebels and new Disney books is trashed so we have no idea of knowing. Plagueis can even be a Hutt now for all we know and we have no idea how the ancient Sith were until Disney decides to make something up.
     
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  14. Leahcim Somar

    Leahcim Somar Rebel Official

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    I dont think its a failure. maybe i have to read up on it more regarding the rule of 2 but since there were a bunch of SITHs back in the day can there be SITHs still but not ruling like Palpatine/Sidious? There was always an apprentice during the SW timeline but always 2 SITHS. I like to think there were others waiting for power to fall and continuing throughout the galaxy.
     
  15. Lord Revanous

    Lord Revanous Force Sensitive

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    Yes, I agree when you talk in Canon, it touches on about 5% of potential Sith lore and background. One thing you can confirm is the Rule of Two was not intended forever and it needs to go away now! I love Bane first of all, but he was a complete Sith elitest and valued restriction of heritage to galaxy domination. His time saw the Sith Empire and Brotherhood of Darkness, turn crazy fanatical cult!
    Now myself personally prefer the EU (mostly to all non Canon now), but the Sith saw the most strength when they raged war on the Galactic Rebuplic and the Jedi, together, as a free thinking power army! I would like, lets say current Star Wars moves forward to see the Sith Order return, their own armies, their own planet and real war! Same for the Jedi! We mock the Jedi for their at time stupidity, and yet the Sith are still killing their allies, people that believe what they believe. Just doens't make sense.

    But my verdict was the Rule of Two was taken too literally for too long and now I think it's time for the Sith Empire to rise again!.
     
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  16. Leahcim Somar

    Leahcim Somar Rebel Official

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    I think the rule of two was forced when Bane did what he did and overpowered the rest of the SITHs at the time. I like the rule of two but dont mind that they(disney) go away from the old. but i feel in another words that the rule of 2 can happen to anyone SITH/darkside usage. is it only 2 that can rule in a galaxy? or just 2 in general. I feel that with the rule it opens a gate like Rebels when Maul is trying to get Ezra as his apprentice and the rule of 2 applies there as well. just cause its not the major 2 we know(vader/palapatine) we still get 2 darkside users one former SITH. The rule of two is put in place so if one tries to overtake the other its a 1 on 1 fight. but in SW it shows. Maul dies(cut in half) > Dooku(ventress) > Anakin(Vader) > tried to get Luke and the Emperor tried to turn Luke on Vader. You kinda see what im trying to say?
     
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  17. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    I agree as well in that I too think it's time for the Sith Empire to rise again yet my ideal vision for it is the one belonging to Darth Krayt! The One Sith rules!!!
    4110997-4066913-7446708626-38243.jpg
     
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  18. Lord Revanous

    Lord Revanous Force Sensitive

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    Yeah I totally get what you're saying. There isn't going to be an offical two that represent the Sith, there should always be an order tho, of a Master and their apprentice and this can have a few spread across a galaxy. Cause Bane's teary was over the fact there was too many in their ranks calling themselves, Sith. So, I imagine, let's say Maul and Ezra start their own two. Sidious would instruct Vader to eliminate them, cause Sidious followsthe ROT and would believe he is the keeper of it. Because if Maul, Ezra and Vader joined forces they would kill sidious and then who knows, so you could say the Sith are the worlds most paranoid force users.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 6, 2016, Original Post Date: Dec 6, 2016 ---
    You know how to give a Sith lover goosebumps my friend!

    (dark)(vicious)(red)(crossguard)
     
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  19. Alaskan Nerfherder

    Alaskan Nerfherder Rebel Official

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    I agree with what everyone is saying about changing how the sith run their business. I'm really hoping Snoke is from an Ancient Sith past and has bigger plans for their empire. I just hope Disney doesn't screw up what has the potential to be something cool and new for the future of the sith.
    Say what you want about the rule of two though, it was able to do what the sith orders of the past could not. Eliminate the Jedi order...
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 28, 2016, Original Post Date: Dec 28, 2016 ---
    IMG_1149.JPG
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 28, 2016 ---
    IMG_1154.JPG
     
  20. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    The Rule of Two worked. Palpatine became Emperor of the GFFA and destroyed the Jedi Order. Unfortunately for Banes Sith Order, the Chosen one was born and undid all the things the generations of Sith achieved with Palpatine. There are still likely "Sith" followers in the GFFA but there is not a known Master and Apprentice Sith. Snoke may or may not be attempting to revive the Sith Order. Surely one day some Dark Side force users will reestablish the Sith Order in some fashion.

    Kylo will almost certainly want to pursue the Sith Order as Darth Vader was a Lord of the Sith.
    Lord Kylous or Darth Kylous?
     
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