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"Several transmissions were beamed to THIS ship"

Discussion in 'Rogue One' started by BaronSoontirFel, Dec 16, 2016.

  1. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    I challenge you - and welcome to the Cantina.

    Thank you! Good to learn that I'm not the only old fossil who sees it this way.

    The novelization only makes it worse (excerpt):

    The voice of a stormtrooper spoke to him through his comlink. “A data tape was recorded on the bridge just before we boarded. No sign of it here.”

    But it was not enough to claim the tape.
    He grasped the rebel sprawled before him by the throat, lifted him and stared at him through bloody lenses. “Where,” Vader demanded, “are they taking it?”
    The reply was a strangled whisper. “Away from here,” the rebel said. “Away from you.”


    So, according to the RO novelisation, Vader knew that the Death Star plans were on a data carrier, which would retroactively require to rewrite the opening ANH dialogue:

    STORMTROOPER
    The Death Star plans are not in the main computer.


    (We are looking for a data carrier, you imbecile moron)

    VADER
    Where (are) is (those) this (transmissions) data carrier you (intercepted) received?


    REBEL OFFICER
    We intercepted no transmissions. Aaah... This is a consular ship. We (are on) were on a diplomatic mission to Scarif.


    (Man, he's telling the truth! They intercepted no transmissions but received a data carrier...:p)

    VADER
    Don't play games with me, Your Highness. You weren't on any mercy mission this time. (Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by Rebel spies. I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you.) A data carrier was handed to this ship by Alderaanian guards. I want to know what happened to the data carrier you received.

    The way I see it, the onscreen evidence is (fortunately) rather thin. There is a cut between the data carrier passed on in the airlock scene and the data carrier that ultimately ends up in Princess Leia's hands, leaving it somewhat ambiguous whether that's the one and the same data carrier.

    The Blockade Runner leaving the Profundity could have just been another Blockade Runner which itself transmitted the plans further to Princess Leia's ship (I read one SW fan claiming that Princess Leia's ship is shown near a planet that supposedly looks different from Scarif, but I have to see the film again).

    Unlikely?

    Well, Commander Praji tells Vader in ANH: "Lord Vader, the battle station plans are not aboard this ship! And no transmissions were made."

    That statement made it rather clear, that Praji considered the possibility that Princess Leia could have forwarded the Death Star plans to (yet) another recipient, perhaps based on *previous* Rebel procedure...;)

    Given the choice whether to interpret the onscreen evidence in a manner, that doesn't violate continuity and doesn't come at the expense of the Vader character in ANH (otherwise sounding like a bumbling idiot after RO) or blindly "follow" what some NuCanon contributors try to tell me, I don't have to hesitate very long which choice to make.
     
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  2. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    This has all been explained above so it would benefit you to read the thread.

    The Novel doesn't change anything. I've said this before and will say it again. Vader knew they were trying to smuggle physical plans via another ship. It's the only way they could do it since "all Rebel frequencies are blocked" and Raddus Ship was disabled. That's why he boarded the ship. The intercepted transmissions are the data uploaded to Raddus Ship from the Citadel Tower. It was an Imperial Comm frequency that broadcast the plans to the Mon Cal Cruiser. Vader didn't know if the Tantive IV also received the broadcast or not. Once he discovered they were docked with the Mon Cal Cruiser, it became a possibility. He did find out they had physical plans as well. He also knew those physical plans could not have come from Scarif.

    Watch the movie's a few more times and open your mind and you will see they did not mess this up. It was very well thought out actually.
     
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  3. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I think you're on to something there. Short answer is that this might just be a continuity error that we all need to get over.

    But, as I'm sure we're all passionate fans, I think this deserves a little closer analysis. Remember, Vader is one bad looking dude, but he still can be a vulnerable human being. In an ironic twist, what has seemed like his badass entry back in ANH might have been him scrambling for hope of his own. Remember, they're coming directly from Scarif in what has to have been an incredibly frustrating and embarrassing display against the Empire. This is arguably one of the biggest rebel attacks against Imperial forces in a long time, doing significant damage to the Imperial fleet there, the shield well, the base itself, and a ton of Imperial forces stationed there. Not to mention that the Empire once again had to reveal the Death Star's power to the galaxy by using it again, something we already know Vader is wary of. Oh, and the Death Star plans were stolen too. He's not having a good day.

    So, when he boards Tantive IV, he might not be as calm and collected as he seems- rather, paranoid and accusatory. Basically, going around the ship ranting "Where are the plans? I know you stole them! I know you intercepted them!" Because in the end, Vader knows they're on the ship, but he doesn't exactly know where they are. The Imperial forces didn't even have enough sense to vaporize an escape pod leaving the ship. They're totally in the dark.

    Leia and the Rebels aren't in a great place, but that day was hardly a walk in the park for Vader, either.
     
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  4. Darth Buzzkill

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    You're willfully ignoring the mistake R1 makes. Vader's quote as far as the order of the film creation goes happens FIRST.

    I can write it so that Vader's line in ANH wouldn't sound silly, "Don't act so surprised, Your Highness. You weren't on any mercy mission this time. A stolen data tape was brought to this ship by Rebel spies. I want to know what happened to the plans they gave you."

    It would be like Episode I using "Tim" for Anakin's name instead. Exactly the same.

    It's JUST. BAD. WRITING.
     
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  5. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    No offense, but I think you're putting the cart before the horse. RO should have matched the context clearly delivered in ANH back in 1977, not the other way round, and I'm only referring to the actual ANH dialogue that remained in the final edit (i.e. Vader's original and extra "You passed through a restricted system" is obsolete).

    No, he talked about "several transmissions" being made to Leia's ship (but since there is nothing in the main computer, he starts to realize that the data has probably been copied to a data carrier before the main computer files were erased). There's no reason to talk about transmissions when he "knows" it's actually a data carrier he's looking for. The Vader I know get's to the point and doesn't play games.

    Then that's the RO sciptwriters writing their excuse to help them ignore what they talked about in ANH, and as such it's a retroactive continuity maneuver. But fortunately, what we actually see in the film, remains ambiguous.

    Again, why is then talking about "transmissions" in ANH when he knows it's a data carrier he's looking for? The first rule of interrogation is to confront the other person with what you know, so that person spares his or her breath playing dumb. Babbling about "transmissions" was like an invitation for Captain Antilles to play dumb which can't have possibly been Vader's intention.

    Add to this Princess Leia's claim that she was on a "diplomatic mission" is so ridiculous that I can't help but wonder if Leia seriously thought she could impress Vader, considering he saw her ship - according to the RO novelization - leave and caught her with her hands in the cookiee jar. What I learned thus far is that somehow Vader supposedly followed Leia's ship straight to Tatooine (supposedly ANH starts 10 minutes after the events of RO).

    Then why didn't he mention everything he knew? What we see in ANH is a man who confronts Leia with a lot of claims and accusations (none related to her participation at the Scarif battle!) but actually has no proof whatsoever (hence the vocal concerns of his aide a moment later if word of the seizure of Princess Leia's consular ship gets out).

    According to the RO novelization he caught her red handed participating in a sneak attack against an Imperial facility, so she lost any kind of diplomatic immunity she still might have had.

    I'm really sorry and wish it was different, but the context of ANH remains clear: Several transmissions were being made to Princess Leia's ship, elsewhere in space (on a "diplomatic" mission). Vader's dilemma in ANH remains that he has no physical proof that Leia's ship actually a) received these transmissions and b) copied these to the data carrier.

    Rogue One supposedly and retroactively provides him with plenty of evidence, he could have brought forward but doesn't, making the Dark Lord of the Sith look like an idiot - and I for one just can't stand any kind of retroactive continuity that comes at the expense of iconic Star Wars lead characters.
     
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  6. Darth Buzzkill

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    BINGO! That is MUCH better setup to a much better ending.
     
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  7. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    Also, according the A New Hope's opening crawl, that was the 1st victory against the Empire.

    It's apparent Vader hates the Death Star and does not like having to cover his tracks because of this "technological terror".
    Hunting down schematics is not his idea of a good use of time when he could be taking a nice looooong Bacta bath!
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 21, 2016, Original Post Date: Dec 21, 2016 ---
    No offense, but watching Leia download plans isn't my idea of an ending :p
     
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  8. Darth Buzzkill

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    The kinder, gentler, sensitive Vader? You have to be trolling us, right?

    No.

    That scene in the opening of ANH is yet another cornerstone in establishing exactly who and what he is.

    He finds her, chases her down, knocks out the main reactor, brings her Rebel a$$ into the cargo bay, blows the freaking door in, sends in his hard boys to clear it out and comes in like a boss throwing serious shade. He's not having a bad day, he IS A BAD DAY. He's not calm and collected. He has serious red-a$$ and he gets sh*t done.

    "Give me that b*tch Antilles." Chokes him, lifts him and asks him. Antilles lies, Vader knows it and kills him. Search the ship and bring me the passengers alive.

    Yeah?
     
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  9. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Well, I think that's something that has evolved with the series. Back in the '70s, what we thought we were seeing was indeed a terrifying monolith of pure evil storming aboard Tantive IV. A few years later, with ROTJ, we truly do see him humanized. In a way, it makes sense that under his terrifying exterior, he's still human. It's actually pretty poetic.

    So no, I'm not trolling you- perhaps 1983 George Lucas was, but at this point I'm merely posing a minor theory with some pretty hard canon evidence.

    Yeah, it's kind of hard to imagine the end of Rogue One to be anything close to a Rebel victory, but I guess at least it was a phyrric victory. They got the plans, they decimated Scarif and much of the fleet stationed there, they embarassed the Empire, and again, they forced their hand into using the Death Star again (this time on themselves!) I could see Mon Mothma spinning that into a victory to rouse support.
     
  10. Darth Buzzkill

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    The evolution of the character showed his repentance in ROJ. Similarly, his fall starting in AOC and completing ROS.
     
  11. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    It's been 20 years since ROTS by the time ANH rolls around. Evolution is a process, not a singular event. I don't see how shades of his humanity teased early on, not even really apparent until looked at retrospectively, break this cycle.

    Rogue One clearly had a goal of patching up some holes in ANH, most prominently covering why a particular actual hole wasn't patched up on the Death Star. I guess it's fun to say "It's a plot hole" and move on, but I personally find it fun to look a little deeper than that.
     
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  12. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Rebel Official

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    @Darth Buzzkill

    I like your straightforward style, looking forward to your ongoing participation in the Cantina. "He is a BAD DAY" just made my day. :D

    Exactly, but then we wouldn't have this discussion. But seriously, we saw Vader approaching the Profundity with some TIE boarding crafts, so I would have loved to see how they got to Admiral Raddus with Vader pushing his way through Rebel resistance. In the hectic situation, trying to verify whether the Death Star plans were successfully forwarded to the Tantive IV, the Rebel officer in charge accidentally asked "Tantive IV, did you receive?" as Vader was storming in (and learned which ship to go hunting for next).

    I believe this scene would have been equally exciting and in perfect continuity with ANH, but - alas - could haves and would haves don't count.
     
  13. Darth Buzzkill

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    Well, it wouldn't be written/done in that way. :)

    Her blasting out of the docking bay was anti-climactic...

    ANH: Most of rebel fighters decimated! Vader chasing Luke down the trench! He gonna die! Han Solo for the win! Yaaaahoooo! Vader: "Wut?" DEFEAT! Luke REALLY uses force for first time! It's in the hole! BOOOOM!

    ESB: Han Frozen! Taken away! Luke with his hand cleaved off! Chased by Star Destroyers! Broken hyperdrive! ESCAPE!

    ROJ: Ewoks all smashed to bits by AT-ST! Oh, well can't have everything.

    :D
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 21, 2016 ---

    Well, you're the one who felt he may have been conflicted aboard the Tantive IV. I personally saw none until the Emperor brings up Luke in ESB. "He's just a boy" was not said only with dismissal, but sympathy. It was a big hint as to what came up later in the film.

    As far as RO patching up holes in ANH. RO made it worse.

    I'm not a hater of the SW franchise. I'm PI$$ED that they screwed it up with RO. (vicious)

    Laughable. These writers were PAID?

    ALL things have weaknesses. That's why you protect their secrets. That's why people steal blueprints, source code, and DeathStar plans.

    Galen Erso thought Jyn was dead, or in the minimum had NO idea whether she was or not. His nickname for her was Stardust.

    Soooo, he put a deliberate weakness into project "Stardust" A ray shielded thermal exhaust port right below the main port. Great.

    Question: Who the hell would ever possibly find this except in the scenario that Jyn was alive, a member of the rebellion, and trying to steal the plans to the DeathStar, which itself was so secret that even the SENATE didn't know about it? :rolleyes::eek::p:confused:

    ANH: Princess Leia Organa: The technical readouts of that battle station. I only hope that when the data's analyzed a weakness can be found. It's not over yet. (Oh I found the weakness, RO writers)

    General Dodonna: The battle station is heavily shielded and carries a firepower greater than half the star fleet. Its defenses are designed around a direct, large-scale assault. A small one-man fighter should be able to penetrate the outer defense.
    Gold Leader: Pardon me for asking, sir, but what good are snub fighters going to be against that?
    General Dodonna: Well, the Empire doesn't consider a small one-man fighter to be any threat, or they'd have a tighter defense. An analysis of the plans provided by Princess Leia has demonstrated a weakness in the battle station. "It's part of project Stardust" But the approach will not be easy. You are required to maneuver straight down this trench and skim the surface to this point. The target area is only two meters wide. It's a small thermal exhaust port, right below the main port. The shaft leads directly to the reactor system. A precise hit will start a chain reaction which should destroy the station.
     
    #53 Darth Buzzkill, Dec 21, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
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  14. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Right, and I'm not saying that he's necessarily conflicted aboard Tantive IV- he's totally pissed, I'm sure. Just that he might be scrambling a little bit, too. He knows the gravity of the situation.

    And you're totally right, in the original trilogy we first see signs of Vader's humanity in that talk with Palps. That was a nice little hint. And I think it's possible now, given how Rogue One has given the opportunity to now view the OT retroactively, that we can reexamine other scenes. Even in Rogue One, we see Vader rather vulnerable in the bacta tank, right before he suits up (both literally and figuratively) to go give Krennic the what for.

    I'd have to see the film to be absolutely sure, but I believe Galen's message to the Rebellion via Saw could've answered a lot of these questions. Remember, it was interrupted by all hell raining down on Jedha, and Jyn ended up forgetting a lot of what was contained in the message. They were lucky enough to have Bodhi redirect them to Eadu where Galen was, and once again unlucky to not get to Galen in time. They were constantly just a little too late, but I don't think that's an issue with the writing.
     
    #54 cawatrooper, Dec 21, 2016
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  15. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    I've always viewed Vader as being ANNOYED in ANH. He's lost patience (I know, Dark Side stereotype) and is tired of the Bull$hit from Leia. He's had his run-in's with her before and he's so ready to prove he's right. He KNOWS she has the plans (Bittorrent and Blu-Ray versions :p). He KNOWS she's a Rebel and traitor. Now Rogue One gives us even more insight into why he's annoyed and losing his cool. That's why I love it.

    This is how I view the off screen time between Vader departing for Raddus ship and the moment he loses it on the Rebels....

    Vader and his team board the Mon Cal.
    The Stormtroopers begin killing Rebels and start making their way to the Bridge.
    Vader asks a Rebel, "where are those plans you've intercepted?".
    Rebel dude says, "they are trying to download them and get away on Leia Organa's ship!"
    Vader gives a look of "OH NO THAT BEOTCH IS NOT GETTING AWAY WITH THIS..."
    Then he proceeds towards the Tantive IV and slices and dices, just as they get away.
     
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  16. General_Tarkin

    General_Tarkin Rebel General

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    Uhm, that is why he sent the imperial pilot with the hologram message, where he carefully explained everything...
    And even if Bhodi never reached Saw alive, I dont see the problem here. Galen did his best to keep the weakness a secret. If noone finds it, not his problem, his part is over and he can't do more.
    Besides, given the lore of the SW universe, one could argue it was the will of the force (or destiny). In the end, everyone involved with the creation of the technological monster, turned into stardust.
    Criticism is okay, but please keep remarks like this to yourself. Noone is interessted in ad hominem attacks on this forum.
     
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  17. Trevor

    Trevor Rebellion Arms Supplier
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    Exactly right....the two scenes from R1 and then ANH are NOT moments apart...I've speculated that perhaps up to (or more) a week has elapsed before Vader caught up with the IV...and after some investigative work was done.
     
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  18. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    Vader and the Empire detecting the transmissions to the Tantive IV before setting after it would have made a decent ending.
     
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  19. Darth Nole

    Darth Nole Rebel General

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    I think people are taking Vader way too literally when he is questioning the Princess. He is interrogating her, bluffing about what he actually knows and trying to not reveal what he does not know. Sensitive intel, gathered in covert operations, is always handled with smoke and mirrors, in order to protect the source of the intel, which is usually a confidential informant or a spy. Whatever Vader actually knew, he is not going to reveal it to her.
     
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  20. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    So Leia wore that white dress for a over week straight? How many white dresses did she have onboard? Did she do her hair like that daily?

    Seriously, I have to disagree here. The whole point of the ending was to link up to ANH. There isn't much off camera stuff happening before Vader catches her. In my opinion, Vader shuttles back to the ISD and they jump to hyperspace right behind her and come out of light speed within minutes/hours of the Tantive IV getting to Tatooine.
     
    #60 techsteveo, Dec 22, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
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