Should John Williams quit before Eps 8 & 9?

That the music should feel like a character in SW is a key point. I love Rey's theme (and The Scavenger) because it feels new and inspired, it feels like a new character to me. The rest of the music is serviceable in that it sounds like it's from the SW universe, but to @Lord Phanatic's point it's kind of like a background character, familiar but not striking. One exception here is the Jedi Steps theme at the end, which I also thought was strong and compelling.

This is said with the caveat that I've only seen/heard the film twice. My droid ears may be tuned differently after multiple viewings.

 

First of all I'd like to say I think it's great that so many people really enjoyed the soundtrack. John Williams obviously did something right for the general positive reaction his film score received. I have to say I was disappointed with the score. I can see that people are listening to it with a mind that it mostly fits and expresses beautifully what is happening on screen, which is what you would hope for. For me my first exposure to star wars music was the first star wars movie. Even now when I watch it I am completely blown away by the music in that movie which John Williams had taken to further dizzying heights with TESB. That music, with its very strong bombastic themes is to me completely synonymous with Star Wars. The music as grand, epic and classic as it it is, is in part (a big part) of what makes Star Wars so special. Maybe it's because everything is a bit more wishy washy in TFA that the music reflects that. Kylo Ren isn't a fully fledged villain, the first order aren't as strong as the empire yet, Snoke is a mystery. When I think in that way I realise I'm just making excuses. Apart from Rey's theme which still isn't a contender for any theme in ANH, the themes are weak and for me not memorable.

 

I didn't enjoy TFA's OST thaaat much...so sue me

 

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That last part was a joke ... But I didn't like the TFA doubt track that much .

 

Don't know what "doubt" track means?

 

SOUND*

 

Ok cool. Sounds like we are both on the same page and in the minority. I didn't think the movie was all that either but god forbid you express that view on here or anywhere else for that matter.

 

Williams soundtrack is nominated for best score in the academy awards. And for good reason. It is by far one of the most musically complex scores he has ever produced. And by far the soundtrack that is most engaged with a. character themes b. music as a storytelling mechanism. It explains why its reception by musical critics was so universally positive. And I myself also think that it is one of Williams' best scores to date, well in line with the music for the original trilogy, and in some parts even surpasses the music of the originals, especially when cosidering its function as a storytelling device.

I was quite surprised that some fans thought the music was dull and not as good as previous scores. I have managed to deduce a number of reasons why a minority of fans either misundersood or disliked Williams' TFA score:

a. People who grew up with the prequels expect bombastic chorals and event driven music, not character and narrative driven music as in the originals and TFA. Furthermore their feelings of juvenile nostalgia are linked more to the prequels than to the originals. Moreover, the music in the TFA, like the music of the originals is less likely to dominate the images and dialogue on screen as the music of the prequels did. In effect there is only one track on the TFA score which clearly seems to build on the prequel music: "The Starkiller". The latter being similar structurally as the Order 66 composition for Revenge of the Sith.

b. Some people expected Williams' new score to rely more heavily on the old themes produced for the originals, in most cases these people see the music of the originals as perfect, simply because it had a long time to grow on them, and they sometimes literally grew up with this music. They fail to recognize that the philosophy behind the music in TFA and its structure is very similar to Williams' compositions for the originals.

c. Lucasfilm did not release a cd single nor did it release the soundtrack before the actual theatre release of The Force Awakens. With the prequels they released the soundtrack before the actual movie, but such a release also happened to spoil parts of the movies' plot. Therefore some people in the cinema had a harder time actually recognizing the new musical themes of The Force Awakens simply because they did not have the opportunity to listen to- and evaluate the score of TFA before the movie was out.

d. The music released with the trailers and commercials gave the impression of a kind of 'Hans Zimmer' style score for the Force Awakens. Hans Zimmer's compositions are more reliant on electronic supporting instrumental devices alonside the normal orchestral instrumentation. The trailer and commercial music was 'Hans Zimmer'-like. Instead,The Force Awakens, staying true to Williams' tradional style of writing, relied primarily on normal orchestral instrumentation. The music produced for the trailer and commercials was good for its particular purpose, but also from a musical perspective unimaginative.

 

No one can take away your feelings and thoughts for the score or any other score. It's unfortunate however that you feel the need to attempt to take away what other feel about the music. To belittle people by using words like "juvenile" or saying their love for certain music is through nostalgia only is quite frankly insulting. Music like anything in art including movies themselves is purely subjective and open to many interpretations. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to listen to music. You seem to like to analyse music which is great. For myself I also at times like to analyse music but initially I go by pure gut instinct on whether I like something or not. How does it initially make me feel and what sort of an impact emotionally does it give me. I can honestly say hand on heart when I first heard the music to the original movie it knocked my socks off and it stuck in my mind and wouldn't let go ever since. TESB did that for me and then some and I don't know enough superlatives to express how much I love that music that has nothing to do with nostalgia or how much I analysed it. The best kind of music for me does something to my mind, body and soul immediately, well before any kind of analysis takes place. Sorry but TFA music didn't do much for me and I don't need anyone to tell me I'm wrong for having that opinion. Just because the majority like something doesn't mean the minority are wrong for not liking it.

 

I happened to think the music for the western official trailer (whatever you call it) despite using an old theme was more moving and beautiful than anything in the TFA soundtrack. It is in part what gave me the chills when I first saw that trailer. Didn't get the chills once with TFA music or any other feeling for that matter.

 

'juvenile' and 'nostalogia' are not meant to be derogative, those words are not inherently negative. But I do understand someone might read it differently, so my apologies. I am patronizing no one, my goal was to summarize the arguments used for some people's dislike of the TFA soundtrack and then offer possible explanations for their dislike. With you last post you proved my point by recognizing that you were expecting the music from the trailers to be soundtrack for TFA. It is one of the arguments for people's dislike of TFA's score. I am not saying such an argument is bad or wrong.

I also offered an explanation why the music critics value the TFA soundtrack for its technical achievements. For some people it is 'juvenile nostalgia', kids seeing their first star wars film with juvenile nostalgia (at least if they liked the movie). It is just one of many reasons. I am also not patronizing people about their preferred taste for the trailer music. I liked the trailer music very much and I also like Hans Zimmer, but a. it is not John Williams, in other words, John Williams would never make this kind of music, b. if you look at it technical perspective the trailer music is not that interesting, it lacks complexity. I'm not saying it is bad and that therefore no one should like the trailer music or listen to it.

I think the problem is that there are two ways to evaluate music:
a. subjective - does it stir emotions with you as a listener, do you like it etc. matters of personal taste.
b. musicological - you look at the technical aspects of writing music. What sort of motifs do you use? What sort of story do you try to tell by means of the music? How does it accompany the images on screen. What sort of emotions does the music try to stir with its listeners.

In my analysis above I was merely concerned with the musicological aspect: in other words the aspect used by the academy to evaluate whether or not the TFA soundtrack deserves to be nominated for an oscar or not. I was not concerned with the subjective one nor did I belittle anyone. I like the prequel music. I like the music of the originals. I like the music of The Force Awakens. What I am saying is is that TFA's is from a musicological perspective very well written and also very comlex.

 

Eh...my philosophy is, "who gives a Sith.

 

I agree with this member's post. I am in the vocal minority of those who disliked this movie's score. When I left the theater I could not recall any elements of any part of the soundtrack (title theme does not count). While I consider this soundtrack subpar for John Williams, I certainly dont believe he should hang up his baton. Just the opposite, I hope he makes something at least as memorable as his stand out tracks from the prequel trilogy. I am firmly convinced the John will not compose anything as stirring as the original trilogy tracks for I believe in that from the mid seventies to the late 90's he was at the height of his glorious abilities (SW, Jaws, Indiana Jones, Superman, Jurassic Park, ET, etc). I hope I am wrong in this. I felt the prequel tracks were in general a disappoointment but there were the expected flashes f John Williams brilliance with "Duel of Fates" being the highlight and one of his best works. Another track I always remember but didn't hear in the soundtrack for Revenge of the Sith" was the dark theme playing in the background when Anakin and Obi Wan say farewell for the last time a friends and Anakin looks on as Kenobi's ship lifts off. Quite a few posters bemoan detractors as wanting flashy "bombastic" tracks present in the last two trilogies but this is not the case for all of us. Regarding the un-named Obi Wan-Anakin parting track, this scene was the hallmark of John Williams greatness in his ability to weave a theme in perfect synch with the scene it was written for, so much so that the background music is as powerful or crucial as the scene itself. When he needed brassy flare to highlight the thrills of a scene such as the Tie Fighter pusuit of the Millenium Falcon through the asterid field, he did it brilliantly. When appropriate he let the action speak for it self as evident in the podrace sequence and luke and Vader's lightsaber duel on Bespin.
I personally felt he had begun to fall off with the prequel tracks because that knack for weaving the perfect accompanying track for a scene was missing as a whole. For example,when Qui-Gon and Obi Wan are watching the droid squad escort Queen Amidala and her court to cnfinement, I thought the bckground track was disconcertingly lighthearted. I though he got closer to his old frm for the Episode III soundtrack and the mix of endearing themes and new material was what I was looking forward to. I actually sat and watched the credits to see if it was John Williams who scored the TFA's soundtrack. I hope his compoositions improve as the trilogy goes on.

 

You expressed what I wanted to say beautifully, I couldn't agree more. I can agree with people that TFA music was complex and as a piece of music if you just listen to the soundtrack on its own it's a wonderful suite of music. To me it's just not a great Star Wars soundtrack. What it boils down really is it hasn't got any great tunes. Apart from Rey's theme there isn't anything melodically that is as strong as the original trilogy themes or even some of the PT themes. I listened to TFA soundtrack for the third time last night and I appreciated it more than before but after I put on A New Hope soundtrack and the themes are undeniably stronger. You are right John Williams can't compete with the height of his powers so to be fair to the people that love TFA soundtrack he has excelled in a different way. As I said before TFA's score is alot more complex and it does express often in a more subtle way what is going on screen. So I think he has excelled in complexity and subtlety with TFA. I don't believe John Williams thought I can't compete with my previous work he just set about writing music that fits what was on screen. I think the best thing to do is not compare it with previous star wars films which I know is difficult to do. While TFA in some ways is derivative of ANH it is also trying to forge it's own path and I think it goes for the soundtrack too.

 

Jw's music is his masterpiece.

 

I don't think he should quit. I feel that Episode VII's score was rushed as he didn't have the time to produce a score of the same quality of his usual and previous standards. Probably because of the rewrite of the screenplay. Give him more time for Episode VIII I'd say.

 

As for the prequels. I really liked Anakin's theme from Episode I. By why on earth did Williams not use the theme again in episodes 2 and 3. That would have given so much more emotional and musical depth to the character of Anakin? So many great themes in The Phantom Menace, but many dropped for themes which could only really be used in one particular scene (except of course for Across the Stars- a love theme, but basically Padmé's theme). For instance, why were there no character theme for characters like Qui Gon or Obi Wan in the prequels? Or the Jedi? Or the Republic? Something with redundancy and something which you could hear return throughout the prequel trilogy?

The time he took to write and adept the music was longer than for any prequel movie. Prequel soundtracks were recorded in less than a week.

 

I accept your apology. I agree with most of what you say but your need to second guess what people think is largely pointless. I knew that John Williams didn't write the score for the trailer as soon as I heard it and I absolutely didn't want a rehash of the same themes as before. I just said I was more moved by the trailer music (as crude as it may be to some) than I did at any point in the TFA soundtrack. So no I didn't prove your point at all. The trailer music had me all excited again when I heard that familiar theme that's all. I wanted a whole new soundtrack from Williams but one that I feel was as strong as the original trilogy soundtrack which I admit is a very tall order. I agree with you it's wonderfully complex and at times beautifully subtle and it cleverly and seamlessly weaves between new and moments of old themes. However for me personally it hasn't got the intrinsic element that a Star Wars movie soundtrack I think/thought "should" possess which is strong melodic lines and hooks if you will. I'm not the best at expressng music analyse like you are but for me certainly ANH and TESB has tune after tune after tune of very strong melodies that hit you with such immediacy and "force" that you can't help but be carried by it. It is so woven perfectly and masterfully into the fabric of the movies that it blows my mind everytime I watch them. Like when the words Star Wars hits the screen at the start with a boom from the orchestra and the loud bombastic stirring theme tune starts, that expresses what Star wars music for me should be - immediate, hold on to your pants because this is going to take you for a memorable and amazing ride. Forget the visuals, that is just what the music is telling you! It's no surprise that the Beatles were culturally such a global phenomenon. I know not everyone is a Beatles fan but as composers of pop songs they were masters of strong melodic, hook laden instant classics. The original trilogy soundtrack for me is as relevant. Universally people respond very strongly to melody. It does something to us that is undeniable and we respond to it very strongly. John Williams through his whole career recognised the power of using very strong melodic lines for his themes. This for me is the main reason he stands out as a giant and a genius of writing film scores. This is a big element that I feel is missing from the TFA soundtrack apart from the moments when those old themes come through.
It's like now I have to get into a different mindset watching TFA and possibly future Star Wars movies because the music has forced my perception to change of what a Star Wars movie should be. Also elements of the movie itself has challenged my perception of what a Star Wars movie should be and in some ways I suppose that should be a good thing. Lastly I don't think complexity is necessarily more impressive. I think Like some master painters will say it's more challenging to express what you want with fewer brush strokes. Writing great strong, memorable melodies with only a few notes can be extremely challenging. Even more challenging is writing something that immediately hooks you and you love when first hearing it. TFA soundtrack is different in that from what people have said to me and my own experience is it's not immediate. People have come out from their first watch of TFA thinking it's not memorable at all. It takes time to appreciate that soundtrack and then with some effort they have grown to like or love it. I'm from the UK and I put classic FM on the radio which is a classical music station for people that don't know and the DJ introduced a piece of music that he likes from the TFA soundtrack and you guessed it, it was Rey's theme. No surprise because it's the only theme on there that stands out immediately as being memorable and as well as being a beautiful piece of music it's one of the few themes on there that you can sort of hum to.