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Should we ever have seen Master Yoda use a Saber?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by MomawNadan, Sep 20, 2014.

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Does it lesson your love of Master Yoda to see him in a saber battle

  1. Yes, he is a Master JEDI and above this

    54.1%
  2. No, it is interesting to see how any being can use the FORCE through a Saber

    40.5%
  3. No, it is about entertainment after all

    5.4%
  1. MomawNadan

    MomawNadan Rebelscum

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    It is accepted cannon that Master Yoda knew little about his sensitivity to the force in his early life. On meeting a Jedi Master who revealed to Yoda that he was FORCE sensitive he began his training. After training at the Palace of the Jedi Yoda 'proved himself to be a skilled Jedi' (Wookieepedia). Yoda is known to be of a Force- sensitive species, he has revealed nothing else.

    None of us question the wisdom and teachings of Master Yoda. None of us question the strength of the Force. None of us question that the ability to move objects through mind control is amazing. However like mastering of any skill. i.e an instrument, academic discipline, martial art, Chess. Do we not need to learn the basic notes, principles, techniques, openings first. And if we wish to be taught these skills by a Master, do we not want the Master to first demonstrate their ability to perform or understand the basics before we ourselves commit and believe?

    Remember it was Obi Wan at the Cantina who demonstrated for Luke the use of a Lightsaber to defend oneself, and I would argue that when Yoda communicated with the since passed Obi Wan in the Swamps of Dagobah, this is when Luke truly understood how great Master Yoda is. However, we are still left wondering how as a trainee Jedi Yoda brandished a saber. This is not revealed until E2.
     
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  2. Pobody's Nerfect

    Pobody's Nerfect Jedi Commander

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    No lightsaber for Yoda. And none for the Emperor, either.

    The Emperor's strength was his ability to manipulate. He got Padme to call for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Vellorum's leadership, got Anakin to wipe out the Jedi on Corusant, and even got Yoda to take possession of the very clone soldiers that would eventually destroy the Jedi and enforce the Emperor's rule. The Emperor with a lightsaber? Why, when he can manipulate the Chosen One to do his fighting for him? It cheapened the character.

    Yoda's role is that of the anti-Emperor, the Light to the Emperor's Darkness. As such, a lightsaber is beneath him. A Jedi Master shouldn't have to fight. Again, it cheapens the character.
     
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  3. Kibble

    Kibble Rebelscum

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    Seeing Yoda fight in that lightsaber battle ruined his entire thematic presence. Size matters not, right? Well I guess size DOES matter, you gotta use a comically small lightsaber and flip around like...I don't know what it was like. It was just awful, and his Grover-sounding yell as he leaped in just added insult to injury.
     
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  4. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    Is this still canon? I admit, I'm a bit hazy on what survived the canon purge. Was that from a clone wars ep?

    As to the poll. I'm firmly in the camp that Yoda was made lesser by being given a saber in the PT. Even all the scenes playing out the same and Yoda's two fights happening only with force powers would have been preferable to me.

    I know I went through this in another thread already, but to me there should have been a division between knights and masters. Knights being the fighters and masters being the monks or gurus. Basically, when you reach a certain level of mastery, you don't even need a saber. It becomes unnecessary as you can easily defeat any attacker without one. Same goes for Palpatine. Hand to hand combat is beneath people that powerful. Its unnecessary when they can lift spaceships and create lightning out of thin air.

    I get that people wanted to see Yoda be a badass and show off his powers. But, I still think that could have been accomplished, even more so, without a lightsaber.
     
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  5. MomawNadan

    MomawNadan Rebelscum

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    Max Rebo said: 'Is this still canon? I admit, I'm a bit hazy on what survived the canon purge. Was that from a clone wars ep?'

    Have to admit in any of the books I have read from EU and from movies could not find any info on either home planet or ancestors of Master Yoda. Checked again on Wookip and not much. That's why I quoted Wooki (best I could do) I guess what we know is thus cannon until we are advised otherwise.

    Would love to know any more info if it's out there?
     
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  6. Fooled Trooper

    Fooled Trooper Rebel Official

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    I always saw Yoda as a calm powerful Buda-Typ...Someone that was beyond any usage of weapons but the Force...It would have made him a bit more special imho...

    If Yoda was to fight and use his lightsaber against Sidious, a Character that wasn´t that fond of the ligthsaber either, as he discribed it as a Jedi weapon, to make the Situation tense so that even Yoda had to bring out his saber out, a single fight in Episode III where Yoda wasn´t jumping like a Flubber could have been powerful enough...A fight of all skills so to say that would end in an all out Force-Fight...
     
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  7. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I actually never had a problem with Yoda using a lightsaber in the PT, I just wish he wouldn't have done the flips like Sonic the Hedgehog! I always thought Dooku shouldn't have been able to use force lightning as only the Emperor should have had that power.
     
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  8. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Rebel Commander

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    From what I remember, Lucas would not allow anyone to write a book about Yoda or his origins. The only thing he has ever revealed is that his species is a Frog (I know, I know).
    I believe that this is why it was highly rumored that he was saving his ideas about Yoda as a spin off movie.
     
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  9. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Rebel Commander

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    This also reinforces the idea that the Emporer should not have used a lightsaber:

    (Vader brings Luke before the Emperor and hands him Luke's weapon)

    Darth Vader: His light saber.
    The Emperor: Ah, yes. A Jedi's weapon, much like your father's. (Said in disgust)

    At that time, Lucas imagined that the Jedi were the only ones who used lightsabers. Vader was the only Sith who used one because he was a fallen Jedi.

    He even wanted to keep with that theme in The Phantom Menace, when he created the Sith weapon that Maul used (although he tiptoed that line quite a bit).

    Dooku also used a lightsaber because he was also a fallen Jedi. It wasn't until The Clone Wars cartoon came out when everyone and their neighbor started using lightsabers.
     
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  10. Voltar

    Voltar Rebel Trooper

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    Despite the interesting places TCW takes it, I'm more inclined to think that Sidious didn't really gain any characterization by using a lightsaber but Yoda? Of course he did. The cool thing about Yoda is his choices, not his natural limitations. The prequel and TCW Yoda's actions, choices and responses to consequences make every second of ESB Yoda more meaningful.

    The more Yoda I see, the more I want to see.
     
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  11. Darth Pimp

    Darth Pimp Rebel Trooper

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    And there it is right there. How are "masters" supposed to engage in combat with each other if/when they are pretty much on par with each other power-wise? During their dual, both Yoda and Sidious realized that a battle of Force powers was gonna be futile (at least, within the circumstances of their immediate environment at the moment). Same goes for Yoda's duel with Dooku ('...I see that this contest will not be won by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber.' -Count Dooku).

    I appreciate anyone's reservation regarding not wanting to- or- feeling like there was a need for seeing Yoda (or Sidious) have and use a lightsaber, but it simply doesn't bother me at all. I thought it was a nice, unexpected touch to the story, considering that a master doesn't inherently start off as one ;). Even the flipping around and howling, I thought, was cool, if, for no other reason, it represented the notion that even the "top dog" has to get down and dirty every now and again when duty calls for it (-which is why I think GL included it into the film, although I'm well aware that a lot of folks think he merely only did it as a "fan-service" gesture and the "neato-look-at-that!" factor.).

    Sorry, it didn't bother me then....and it doesn't bother me now :cool:
     
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  12. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    I’d buy that argument if it had looked they had even really tried to defeat each other with their force powers, but that battle consisted of a couple of half-assed lighting attacks and a couple of chunks of rock being thrown away. Nothing close to the knock down drag out force battle that would have to occur before decided to downgrade their weapons.

    It would be like two guys with machine guns shooting a couple of rounds at each other and missing, but then throwing their fully loaded guns aside and saying ”well, that didn’t work, let’s have a knife fight instead”

    More importantly though, your argument works only in the context in which Yoda is even there to begin with. I question the concept of Jedi Master as war general entirely and would have preferred only the Knights be that intimately involved in the Clone Wars.
     
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  13. Darth Pimp

    Darth Pimp Rebel Trooper

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    The thing is: it wouldn't nor shouldn't take all that long for a pair of masters in combat to realize that they're at a proverbial stalemate, least of all, Yoda. Plus, we're dealing with the Force here...you know, that power essence thing that imbues a user with hyper-enhanced mental and physical reflexes?? Yeah, machine guns, bullets and knives don't exactly provide these type of capacities and advantages to the user. Sidious thought/hoped he had Yoda outmatched based on size and age, so he hit him with some quick lightning to test the theory and hopefully cripple him badly enough for a win. Yoda showed him that he wasn't going to score an easy K.O. and that's when the blades came out. (Similar situation with Dooku)

    As far as Yoda even being there....who ELSE should've attempted a takedown of an obviously mega powerful Sith Lord?! Windu was the ONLY other master truly qualified for such an attempt- and even he took 3 other masters with for back up.

    Again, this type of battle scenario wasn't even called for because we're dealing with Masters that know when a battle requires a certain approach and weapon :cool:.
     
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  14. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    I buy the idea of a quick decision between masters. That they could tell they were evenly matched makes sense as a concept . But its up to Lucas to sell us that they have really tested themselves in battle and have determined there is no other way than to lower themselves to hand to hand combat. I was never convinced in the Dooku battle that they were doing anything but taking turns lobbing a few attacks at each other and waiting for a reason to start the saber fight. To me the execution of that scene didn't convince me that they were convinced. That is where it fails for me.


    Sorry, my previous reply was referring only to the Dooku fight. Although I'd prefer no Yoda lightsaber use at all, the RotS version was far better executed than the AotC version. The only place where I was ever sold that two masters were equally matching their force powers was that final moment between Palpatine and Yoda in the senate when Yoda gets launched off the platform. If Yoda v. Dooku or the early parts of Yoda v. Siddious had had more of that feeling, I would have been more accepting that they downgraded to sabers after that (although still not thrilled with the idea in general).
     
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  15. Darth Pimp

    Darth Pimp Rebel Trooper

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    I appreciate your not being sold on how it went down on screen, but that's mostly a matter of your own personal preference (of course), as it is for anyone that watches the scene. For me, a lot of times, it's the subtle nuances that deliver the credibility to the idea that's being conveyed, such as Yoda's body language and the look on his face when he sees that Dooku has become extremely powerful with his use of force power(s). Yoda recognized that the distance between himself and Dooku's lightening strikes and environmental destruction powers put the battle in a risky situation for not only himself, but for everyone that was in the area. After demonstrating to Dooku that his force usage wasn't gonna win him the day, he invites Dooku to a saber challenge- partly as a way of preserving the physical environment while protecting it's inhabitants and partly because he felt that Dooku wouldn't be able to outlast him in that type of combat and partly because he figured that Dooku's pride wouldn't be able to resist the challenge (afterall, he IS a Sith at this point). To me, the decision to pull out the blade was wisdom and confidence on Yoda's part.

    Again, this is more a matter of your feeling that a Master's use of a Lightsaber is somehow a downgrade to his/her display of ability. I think it goes hand-in-hand with what is required of being a "master".
     
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  16. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    As you say, its a matter of preference. Its art, it will always be subjective. I'm no opponent of subtlety in my action, I just felt there was no urgency to Yoda/Dooku. It felt as if the scene was pacing, awaiting an excuse to use sabers. If, as you suggest, Yoda was trying to preserve the structural integrity of the hangar, then I would have like Lucas to illustrate those stakes more to provide that urgency and need to the scene. As it stands now, it just sort of feels like Obi and Ani are cuddling on the floor while Yoda and Dooku play volleyball with lightning (I'm exaggerating of course, but I do think the stakes needed to be raised at that point). And again, I had no major issues with the execution of Yoda/Siddious only philosophical issues.

    In the end though, my real issue is with the choices to make Masters too similar to Knights in the prequels. My interpretation of Yoda in the OT was not as a warrior, but as a guru. Someone who would not succumb to the temptation of violence and act as a model for all force users to base their paths on. By making him just another one of the crowd of many Jedi warriors, I thought it homogenized both Knights and Masters and cheapened the character.

    I do see how you could have a preference to see Yoda do battle, but it was never mine. Yoda to me was always an ideal. The personification of the light side of the force and all the good that came with it. Violence has no place in the character of Yoda as far as I'm concerned. Yes, he trains Jedi to protect and fight, but he himself was above all that.
     
  17. Darth Pimp

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    Not so much as a preference as it is an acceptance. "Violence" isn't inherently bad- as it is inherently indicative of being physical, hostile and/or aggressive.

    I'm sure Yoda just figured him and Sidious were gonna just be able to talk everything out and come to a mutually beneficial arrangement :p... coz... u know... that's what masters do..and all :rolleyes:.
     
  18. Centurian Eagle

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    Hm... When I watched the OT as a kid, I somehow envisioned a Jedi Master was faaar beyond the use of a lightsaber, whilst a Jedi Knight wasn't. And I thought the same rules applied to the Dark Side. So for me it was a big let down to see first Yoda use his saber (and jumping around like crazy) and then see the Emperor do the same; to me this just wasn't what I had imagined. Then again, I never envisioned the Jedi the way they are portrayed in the PT; always thought they would be more like mysterious Samurais, passing through the galaxy, doing justice. It all transformed into something higly... non-mystical.
     
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  19. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    Again, you are viewing my argument through the filter of the prequel story. No, Yoda wasn't going to sit sown with siddious to hammer out a treaty, but the story should have been constructed in a way so he would have never been in a position to go to him in the first place.

    You can roll your eyes or think me naive all you want, but violence is an inherently hostile and aggressive act as you say. It is an attempt to inflict pain, suffering, and death on another sentient being, which are all qualities of the darkside no matter how good your rationalization for inflicting death is. Yoda kills clones and separatists indiscriminately and without need in RotS. These are not light side qualities.

    In the end, Yoda should be more Dalai Llama than General Patton. Putting him in a place to be a general, in a war, causing the deaths of millions was a miscalculation of the character on Lucas' part.

    I'm not trying to claim complete pacifism here and say no jedi should be fighting. Just that their religious leaders should have been held to a higher standard if they are expected to teach the intrinsic qualities of the light side to their disciples.

    In the end, I doubt we will come to any form of agreement here as you see violence as having both intrinsic good and bad qualities whereas I see violence as intrinsically dark or evil. A necessary evil from time to time perhaps, but that doesn't exonerate its perpetrators from committing evil acts. Its a stark philosophical difference on our interpretation of the concept, so we will likely never agree on its effects on Yoda's character.
     
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  20. Darth Pimp

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    I'm not trying to convince you of anything either way; we're just having a conversation. But, let me get this straight: So, Yoda is supposed to be a master, that, although trained and highly skilled in martial combat (violence)- so much so that he is qualified for- and, thus- training others to be as well (violent), that he should be above employing said martial combat (violence) when the situation may call for it??? Um...yeah... that uh... really stands to reason. Not to be facetious, but of course you do realize that he, along with the other Masters in the order teach their underlings, and, even each other all kinds of Force skills and abilities including, yup, you guessed it- martial combat. Why? Because, at any given time, it may be necessary and/or even advantageous to employ this skill- even as a master.

    Now, I understand that you feel that a master should be above such action, and yes, I admit that makes absolutely no sense to me. And, also, yes, I'm definitely approaching my position on this matter from the perspective of how the story has been presented on film and in writing because...well..ya know...that's the story as it was...I dunno...conceived by it's own creator?? Hmm...so I guess Obi-wan should've just Force-pushed that guy away from Luke at the cantina, potentially harming other non-involved patrons that were in that tight space- potentially starting an all-out bar brawl, while simultaneously Force-pulling any weaponry the guy and everyone else may have had away from them, so as not to have to use his saber to, otherwise, simplify the matter- or, is Yoda the only person capable of pulling this off properly? Sure, ok.

    Yoda, the leader of entire legion of Jedi warriors, is simply supposed to delegate all potentially violent matters to his subordinates because he, himself, is just too strong and wise in the Force than to be bothered by such a matter? That's not a leader that I would follow, nor a leader that anyone else should want to follow.
     
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