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Should we ever have seen Master Yoda use a Saber?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by MomawNadan, Sep 20, 2014.

?

Does it lesson your love of Master Yoda to see him in a saber battle

  1. Yes, he is a Master JEDI and above this

    47.2%
  2. No, it is interesting to see how any being can use the FORCE through a Saber

    39.6%
  3. No, it is about entertainment after all

    13.2%
  1. Viral Hide

    Viral Hide Elite Guard from Yinchorr
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    I sense disturbance... (pwned)
     
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  2. Kibble

    Kibble Rebelscum

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    Well that time I was trying to be clear. And funny. So thank you!

    So you don't think discussion is something relevant to a forum? I guess that's your opinion, huh. But then why did you engage in discussion about it with me?! I can't remember, but if I started it, then why didn't you just say "It's my opinion, I don't have or need any reasons for it, so I will not try to convince you, and do not try to convince me."

    Okay! What terms do you propose then?
     
  3. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    You are correct. You haven’t come out and insulted anyone directly. Just used juvenile snark and sarcasm to deride opposing opinions complete with eye roll smileys as opposed to providing well thought out counter arguments.


     
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  4. Darth Pimp

    Darth Pimp Rebel Trooper

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    Quit making excuses for taking offense to an opposing opinion lol. You posed this thread in the form of a simple question, which, was answerable with a simple Yes or No. Don't blame or fault the respondents for providing an answer with just that -a YES or a NO.

    Also, don't ask for any elaboration while only being prepared/interested in tearing it down with hollow counter-points and shallow ad-hominems...it kills the credibility of the notion of this being a truly open conversation that's welcoming of differing views. This thread snowballed downhill as soon as I commented that I had no problem seeing lightsaber-wielding Yoda on screen lol. (yoda)

    Everybody is subject to their own way and style of communicating, and I expect that anyone posting on this site- especially, starting threads would be prepared for that idea and mature enough to properly manage it. But now you're complaining of 'juvenile snark and sarcasm'...smh. Suuuurrrre...I'm really buying that :cool:.

    This has become comical....for all the wrong reasons.... :p

    @Kibble
    The terms would simply be: Whom insulted Whom in any direct and inflammatory manner, and, whom approached the question of the OP's topic in an acceptable manner. Maybe, also include: whom has played the illegitimate victim as well...

    If you re-read the entire thread, honestly and without prejudice (for a change), you'll discover that I've violated no premise of it.
     
    #44 Darth Pimp, Sep 24, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2014
  5. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    Not my thread so I’m not sure why you are asking me to manage it better. And the thread didn’t start going downhill at all until your responses got snarky. I even gave you “likes” on your first 3 responses because I was enjoying the debate. I stopped when you started resorting to sarcasm to deride my ideas as irrelevant.

    I love a debate with well-considered counter arguments and that is how this started. But, it isn’t anymore. I’m going to stop any responses in this thread for the time being as the Mods seem to be getting restless. I’ve actually enjoyed my time here over the last couple of weeks and have had many good debates on the films in that time, so I’d rather not get banned over something this ridiculous.
     
  6. Darth Pimp

    Darth Pimp Rebel Trooper

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    @Max Rebo
    Referring to you as the OP is an oops on my part. No problem acknowledging that.

    As to the rest of your post: "Snark" and Derision are pretty subjective terms and observations to make (I also liked some of your posts as well), but this isn't about jumping/being on comfortable bandwagons. Every convo or debate isn't gonna be a "kumbaya" exercise in communicating. If we agree, great. If we don't, fine as well. But wagging fingers at folks for seemingly applying snark to their presentations is just...well....lame.
     
  7. Deadeye

    Deadeye Clone Commander

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    I don't mind Yoda using a light saber. My reasoning is simple: first as a young padawan Yoda would have been taught the use of a light saber. And second, in a hostile environment you never know when you might need one. Looking at the Dooku confrontation, both tried using the force on each other and had basically reached a stalemate. There was nothing left but a light saber duel.

    Now having said that, I like the point made by several posters that as a Jedi master, Yoda wouldn't NEED to use a light saber. So I think the PT would have benefitted from a scene in which Yoda does use just the force to overcome a Sith. But the problem with that is that there can only be two Sith, a master and an apprentice. So if the apprentice is gonna be dominated by a saberless Yoda, then that puts a crimp in the Siths ability to effectively fight the Jedi. Thus, destroying a Sith to show off Yoda's power is off the table.

    Now if GL were to put Yoda in a non-Sith situation where he uses the force while a lesser Jedi uses a light saber, then I'm all for it. I think that use of a Jedi Master is an excellent idea. That seems to correspond to Palpatine's reliance on force lightning in E6 instead of "slumming" with a light saber.
     
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  8. Mike

    Mike Rebel General

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    One of the issues of the Prequels is that everyone had to deal with their preconceived ideals and assumptions that they made up based off of the OT.

    If you sit back and look at the OT as a whole and without your already biased assumptions, there is absolutely nothing in the movies that says that Yoda never used a lightsaber, nor is there anything that suggests he did. There is nothing in the movies that would suggest either way. What has happened is people have developed their own opinion of the matter and then tried to wrap what little we see in the movies around their opinion.

    Perfect example of this is the ideal of Yoda "training" Obi Wan. Before the OT, many of us thought it was implied that Yoda personally trained Obi Wan, only to find out we were wrong, and that Yoda in fact trained all would be Jedi. That caused us to take a step back from our already preconceived assumption of what we saw in the OT, and many did not like it.

    What we see in the movies is Yoda teaching Luke about the aspects of the Force. Does this automatically exclude Yoda from being able to or even wanting to use a lightsaber? Does it automatically mean that he does want or is capable of using one or did use one at some point? The answer is no to both questions. Just because Yoda is teaching Luke about the aspects of the Force does not automatically exclude either side of the lightsaber discussion.

    That is why Lucas was free to show Yoda using a lightsaber in the Prequels because he did not paint himself into a corner in the OT when it came to that issue.

    Just because there is nothing in the movie suggesting that the Masters did not train Knights in combat, does not even come close to proving that Masters did not train Knights in combat. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it proves your point, nor does it prove the other sides point either.

    What we do see is Obi Wan telling Luke to go to Dagobah to find Yoda, the Jedi Master that instructed him. It is not explained as to what he instructed him in. Again, this does not prove either sides point. However we do have this:



    In this deleted scene from Empire we have a Master teaching a would be Knight how to use his lightsaber via the Force. The scene was cut only because they couldn't get it to work. Make of it what you will. My opinion is it shows that Master does train younger Jedi in the use of a Lightsaber.


    Does Yoda using his lightsaber in the Prequels lessen his character any? IMHO, no. It was never my assumption that Yoda was some sort of non-combatant. I always assumed that when he had too, he got down and dirty. He just didn't prefer too.
     
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  9. Darth Pimp

    Darth Pimp Rebel Trooper

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    @Deadeye
    Spot on post. I agree with everything in it except for the following:
    Don't get me wrong, I follow your perspective, as I think it to be spot on as well. I personally just don't find that approach as being necessitous to delivering a believable lightsaber-wielding Yoda. The quote below pretty much sums up my regards to the matter though.

    I couldn't have said it better. @Mike, thanks for posting the video link :). It is exactly what I was referencing earlier. (yoda)
     
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  10. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    Never said the OT proved anything. What I said was the OT left it open to interpretation. There is no requirement based on anything from the OT that Yoda would have ever used a lightsaber. Nor is there a requirement that he couldn’t use a saber.

    The question of the thread is whether we wanted to have seen Yoda use a saber, and my answer is still no. I am fine with other interpretations. I accept that the way the PT played out was one possible outcome of the vague base set in the OT. Just not my preferred one. I think it cheapened the character and the concept of the master’s relationship with the force by turning Yoda into a soldier. But again, it’s a matter of opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own.
     
  11. Duke Groundrunner

    Duke Groundrunner Rebel Official

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    Yeah, no saber fighting for Yoda, looked ridiculous. Peace out.
     
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  12. Kibble

    Kibble Rebelscum

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    This discussion isn't about whether Yoda ever used a lightsaber in his fictional life. Its about whether we should of seen him use a lightsaber in the films. And I don't think we should have because it ruins his thematic presence in the story, and cheapens what he taught Luke and the audience in The Empire Strikes Back.

    No it just shows that Yoda is capable of training younger Jedi in the use of a lightsaber. There were no other Jedi knights around in The Empire Strikes Back, but Luke did have to learn how to use his lightsaber so he could confront Darth Vader and the Emperor, so its perfectly possible that Yoda took up the task because he needed to.

    I don't understand what the difference is between capitalized "Masters" and "Knights". Aren't they all called Jedi knights, but Yoda was like...a master at the Force, or something? Is this a Prequel thing?
     
  13. Mike

    Mike Rebel General

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    You may not have come out and said the OT proves your point, but your stance that anything PT be thrown out, and only OT be used, shows that you feel that the OT material "proves" your interpretation, at least in defense of your opinion.
     
  14. Mike

    Mike Rebel General

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    So where in Empire does Yoda tell Luke that he doesn't use a lightsaber? What teachings lead you to assume Yoda wouldn't?

    The knowledge and defense line?

    I don't believe that line automatically excludes Yoda from lightsaber combat in anyway...

    Is there something else I am missing?



    There was context to what I said that came from another poster that I replied too. My comments do not stand in a vaccuum. Furthremore I said make of it what you will, then established my opinion. That means I left it open to what you wanted to believe what the deleted scene means, without telling you that you were wrong and at the same time established my opinion on it.



    If you have issues with my grammar, punctuation etc.. than just ignore my posts. I am what I am and it will only get worse from here on out. If you need to point out grammar, punctuation etc as a matter of getting an "I got you" moment, instead of just dealing with content, then again please ignore my posts.
     
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  15. Kibble

    Kibble Rebelscum

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    I am going to assume you just didn't understand what I said, instead of choosing to ignore it. The first sentence I even typed is about how this discussion isn't about whether Yoda has ever used a lightsaber - I'm sure if his entire 900 year fictional life was presented on screen he must have at least once. But the discussion about whether we should of seen him use a lightsaber in the films!
     
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  16. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    Nope. False logic there. The point I was making was that you can only roll back to a point where Yoda doesn't use a saber if you remove the PT from the equation. The Jedi structure of the PT makes it clear that Yoda would use a saber, so if you want to have a discussion of an alternate universe where it didn't happen, only the OT would exist...as it is ambiguous as to whether the used a saber or not and therefore allows for both alternatives to exist. In fact I even said earlier that I admit that the the PT model is one possible legitimate outcome of what was presented in the OT. Just not my preferred one.
     
    #56 Rebo, Sep 28, 2014
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  17. MomawNadan

    MomawNadan Rebelscum

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    Hello All, I have spent last two weeks at Waikiki with no wish to take or use a computer.. got the best Boba Fett (aloha army) shirt.

    Darth Pimp: I am male but within the realms of Civic Virtue gender is somewhat irrelevant. I agree with your opinions within this debate though I have been interested to read all sides.

    Kibble: you are correct the THREAD was created under the assumption that at some stage Master Yoda had 'got his hands dirty' and used a saber. The question was indeed did we need to see it.

    Max Rebo: you have correctly summerised my perhaps cynical proposition 'Does it lesson your love of Master Yoda' to see him be Master Yoda? i.e be a Jedi. The question here was drawn from discussions on other threads and was focused on the effectiveness of this betrayal in the PT. I understand the 'Masters are above this type of battle' argument but believe it still had to be attempted for better or worse. Though I admit on reading these posts I have at times almost been swayed in your direction.

    Again, I personally believe the scenes (Yoda v Dooku/ Yoda v Palpatine) had to be attempted and that we did need to see Master Yoda use a Saber and it did not lesson my love of him as I was pretty sure prior to posting the THREAD that he had at some stage used a saber. When Master Yoda and Palpatine resort to Sabers we see the beautiful truth that this 'little Green friend' of the emperor is in fact a tough little SOAB and when higher skills fail he can still go back to what he learnt in the Jedi temple and kick your ass with a Lightsaber.

    Yes, even Generals carry a service revolver, just in case!
     
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  18. Shawshank

    Shawshank Rebel General

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    Why exactly would Yoda not carry a lightsaber? Why wouldn't Palpatine?

    The service revolver is a great example.

    Yes, we NEEDED to see Yoda take out a lightsaber because Obi-Wan and Anakin were already beaten by Dooku in AToC and all the others were occupied. It was GOOD to see another side of him.

    When he did it against Sidious, the same issue arose. Their force powers were matched and, just like Dooku, Sidious, in fear, drew out the lightsaber, hoping to gain the upperhand against Yoda. It only worked due to the landscape they were in.

    I know there are people who would far prefer to see some mythical "Force battle" instead, but really? Where does that go? Is it entertaining? It's certainly got to be redundant after a bit. "Oh look I through this thing at you!....Ah man! You threw a thing at me? Not fair"

    Boring. Not climatic. IF you want to complain how the PT lighsaber battles weren't "good enough," just imagine how terribly exhausting and awful a "Force battle" would be.

    I mean my lord, people already complain that ANYBODY other than Palpatine would dare use Force Lightening because somehow they wanted to imagine that only he could use it. Picky SOBs some of you are. I've seen people talk about how cool it would be to see Luke use the Force to do something crazy like pull down a Star Destroyer...yeah...I can already hear the complaints about how he's an "over-powered Jedi superhero" ruining people's childhoods.
     
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  19. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    Yes, a general carries a service revolver and in that way it makes sense for Yoda to carry a lightsaber. My complaint isn't about the lightsaber specifically as much as it is about Yoda being a General in the first place. As I stated before, my preferred role for the Jedi masters would have been like that of a Zen Buddhist Monk as they related to Samurais. Training the Jedi warrior in the ways of spirituality and the Jedi applying that in battle.

    Just because Lucas was incapable of making a Force battle interesting doesn't mean that it couldn't be done. I would cite Gandalf V. Saruman in Fellowship of the Ring as a good example of a battle of "invisible forces" that still remained visceral and exciting. And they were basically limited to Middle Earth version force pushes.
     
    #59 Rebo, Oct 10, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2014
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  20. WookieeMonster

    WookieeMonster \m/ \m/
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    IMHO, we shouldn't have even seen Yoda in the PT. He should've only been mentioned. This would have added to the reveal in TESB.

    Like hearing about Jabba in ANH and again in TESB. Then finally seeing him in RotJ, that was way cool. Same approach should've been done with Darth Vader. Yes we all know Anakin is Darth Vader, but the end battle should've been Obi-wan, Anakin and Dooku. Only Obi-wan walked away. Then we see someone going into the suit, but don't know if it was Anakin or Dooku (I mean look at Dookus cape, it's in the same style as Vaders). This like not seeing Yoda would have kept the mystery and held onto the myth of the OT.
     
    #60 WookieeMonster, Oct 30, 2014
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