Snoke is a fallen Angel

I always think back to that point where Lucas (and later the Disney folk) would've sat down to write a way to continuing the saga.
How do you go past ROTJ and what villain would work?

I simply don't (want to) believe that they'd ever think it a good idea to just insert an utterly new villain (new as in he hasn't had any relevance to the saga so far). Okay, he can be a new character that we haven't seen before, but he must have a connection to the story up to this point. Otherwise they'd just be dismantling what was a rounded mythological story up to ROTJ. I think the trick is in making it appear to be a natural continuation - like it was always planned to be this way. Lucas pulled that trick when he made the PT. He turned the whole thing into the story of Darth Vader and on paper it is very nicely done. Essentially the same thing happened with the OT - in making Vader the father of Luke. It wasn't planned but it sure looked that way.

So I feel they have two options here.

Firstly, you have Plagueis. He's set up in ROTS as the master of Sidious, the creator of Anakin and the cheater of death. Just say he survived and is now fulfilling his master plan. And until the source of all the Skywalker's pain is destroyed, the plague/curse will continue...

Secondly, you can go right back and go with the source of the Dark Side idea - an ancient being who hasn't just had an impact on the Skywalker saga, but everything else. Someone that is intimately involved in the balance of the Force and thus linking directly to Anakin/Vader that way.

I personally feel Lucas' would've gone with Plagueis. His involvement in Luceno's novel fits with the timeline of writing the ST and I just think that Lucas would a) Want to tie in his PT and make it look planned all along and b) The backstory he gave Luceno about Plagueis (and the look) just sounds like the George we know post PT.

But we know that Disney, at some point, made the decision to drop Lucas' ideas. And JJ brought his own ideas to the table - Snoke is a woman; Snoke was once a beautiful being etc...

However, Arndt has recently said how a lot of what Lucas wrote made it into the story. And after these early ideas JJ had, they seemed to go back to concepts he didn't originally want - a decrepit old man. So that makes me wonder if they saw that Plagueis, or a similar backstory to Plagueis, would indeed be the way to go. Or indeed, did these themes that Plagueis offered (that Lucas may have weaved into his story) appeal to Disney/JJ and so they just recycled them but with a different character? I think this really hinges on how they are approaching the balance of the Force and what story they have given Luke (why he is on Ahch-To etc). Like I say, I think they need to answer Anakin's origins and show us a Dark Sider who is actively attempting to attain the God-like powers Plagueis may have had. I

I'm beginning to sway more to the idea that they created their own new character but one who was influenced heavily by Plagueis. I'd like to see Plagueis incorporated with a new backstory for him - such as being a Whill or fallen angel, but I fear this would be too complicated a backstory to get across. And the more Pablo says the more it does seem apparent that Plagueis is being left in the urns in Palpatine's office...

 

I edited -explanation:

RED- Plausible.
They can plausibly choose for Snoke any Dark Force character that was active during any period of entire Galactic history before the Phantom Menace, as this creates the loop over the main 6 films from saga which enables plausible and powerful, even mystic Snoke, with just a little explanation of the nature of his hiding during 6 films. Plagueis # is borderline as it touches very start of 6 film saga and drags the story as he is mentioned in 6 films ,so it is plausible but closes the 9 film saga.The more older character makes the loop that does not necessary close the 9 film saga.

BLUE- No touch 6 films.
Now here are the all weak "character returns" ideas: Tarkins, Admirals, Inquisitors, Mauls, Vaders, Palaptines..etc etc..I consider this a forbidden zone as it can't produce true powerful Snoke for sequel trilogy. Those "Snokes" are always inferior to Palpatine who set its own standards for proper main SW villain.And also here is interfering into a story about balance of the Force,etc.

GREEN- A pop-up Snoke.
Snoke as a Snoke who just came out from nowhere after the battle of Endor, without explanation of his origin or the ways he acquired his powers. This indeed is like saying that Lucas Galaxy has been created in 6 days, and sold this to Star Wars fans , so cheap.

 

This thread gets more and more interesting...I can't describe it. Its a lot to take in. Makes me want to really explore the concept idea of 'fallen angels' who are force sensitive...I just don't know how to go about it in a story concept kind of way.

 

hahahaha ~ i see you've broadened your prospects!

i'm totally convinced on the angel theory.

i mean: look at those weird things. that's Snoke.
and the fact that he was originally going to be female? yep.

i suspect they went with male to try to avoid the "Snow Queen" icky subtext of his seduction of Kylo Ren. though i think that mostly failed.

 

In my map I wanted to say they can plausibly choose for Snoke any character that was active before the Phantom Menace, as this creates the loop over the main 6 films from saga which enables plausible and powerful, even mystic Snoke, with just a little explanation of the nature of his hiding during 6 films.RED-Plausible.
The middle portion- BLUE- now here are the all weak-minded possible ideas: Tarkins, Admirals, Inquisitores, Mauls, Vaders, Palaptines..etc etc..I consider this a forbidden zone as it can't produce true powerful Snoke the villain for sequel trilogy. Those "Snokes" are always inferior to Palpatine who set its own standards for proper main SW villain.And also here is interfering into a story about balance of the Force,etc.
The third zone -GREEN- a pop-up villain, a brainchild of some genius who came to idea to make Snoke as a Snoke who just came out from nowhere, without explanation of his origin or the ways he acquired his powers. This indeed is like theory that Universe is created in 6 days, but theory "sold" to Star Wars fans and people in 21-st century , it will be to cheap even for Disney.

 

I think that is a pretty smart diagram. I'm with you 100%.
I'd also add that the fallen angel section needs to come with the proviso that this character doesn't turn to the Dark Side until close before TPM or some time before ROTJ. If he's a dark sider too early then questions about what he has been doing arise. There also needs to be reasoning on how he doesn't impact on the balance restoration in ROTJ.

 

All of this fits absolutely perfectly with my feelings about Snoke. I think that you're correct about Snoke being Plagueis and a "fallen" Angel... for him to be both would be confusing even for us die-hard fans. Just read through this thread! I've been advocating for Snoke being a new character with an ancient legacy who has recently fallen to the Dark Side. He, like all Dark-Siders, seeks power. He, like all Dark-Siders, is obsessed with knowledge. But there are key differences between Snoke and the Sith. The Sith seek to conquer and subjugate. While that is also the First Order's goal, I don't think that conquest is his endgame. It's a means to and end and that end, as @master_shaitan suggested, seems to be dominance over The Force. He speaks briefly about things like balance and using both the Light and the Dark. The Sith absolutely reject the Light Side because they think it to be weak. Snoke seems to have a different mindset, and he seems to be using the First Order to achieve his broader goals.

The idea that Snoke is an ancient Whill who has only recently fallen, or even possibly recently awoken, is intriguing. To think that he is more powerful than Plagueis was, that Plagueis learned everything about manipulating life from the Whills... that's just super exciting to me. It also raises a lot of questions, questions that have been referenced only subtly in the saga so far. Where did the Jedi come from? Who are the Whills?

While we're on the subject of questions, here's my attempt to answer @master_shaitan's.
1. Before Snoke was evil, how did he view balance?
I'm going to assume that Snoke is either an Angel/Diathim or a Whill. Or both, if that's possible. At this point we don't know much about either. The Angels are known for being peaceful and beautiful, the Whills are known for achieving immortality and being chroniclers of the galaxy through the Journal of the Whills. The Journal is presumably where the prophecy of the Chosen One originates but there's nothing in the new canon that confirms that. That said, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Snoke most likely viewed balance as essential, especially if he is a Whill. It's not much, I know. Without more knowledge about Snoke's background it's hard to say without getting into tinfoil hat territory.

2. What turned him evil?
The key thing for me is that at some point he sustained some nasty injuries and I suspect he started delving into Dark Side magic in order to heal from those injuries. I imagine the lure to the Dark Side for Snoke was eerily similar to Anakin's, with the exception that he was trying to save himself instead of someone he loved. He may not yet have uncovered the secret of immortality by becoming one with The Force and thus started a slow descent to the Dark Side in pursuing a way to save himself from death. The nail on the coffin could have been his discovery by the Knights of Ren or the Acolytes of the Beyond. We know that the Acolytes were disciples of Emperor Palpatine's teachings and continued his search for a source of the Dark Side. What if they found that source, but it was a being, not a place? What if that being is Snoke, a being of immense power in The Force? We know that Snoke was aware of what was going on in the galaxy. Discovering this cult may have reinforced his views about Anakin's redemption and sealed Snoke's fate as a scion of the Dark Side.

3. Did turning evil obscure or change his view on balance?
Absolutely. We can see from his interactions with Kylo Ren that Snoke believes Anakin was not the Chosen One. He still believes in balance, but the Dark Side has clouded his perception.

4. What would his perspective be now and how does it tie in with his actions thus far?
Although he has not directly stated it, I suspect that Snoke believes that Kylo Ren is the true Chosen One. In the TFA novelization he tells Kylo "It is where you are from. What you are made of. The Dark Side—and the Light. The finest sculptor cannot fashion a masterpiece from poor materials. He must have something pure, something strong, something unbreakable, with which to work." Snoke sees Anakin Skywalker's redemption as a failure, not a victory for The Force. By seducing Anakin's grandson to the Dark Side he is setting Ben Solo/Kylo Ren up as the "true" Chosen One. Conquest of the galaxy is simply a side goal which will allow him to bring about conquest of The Force.

 

Interesting, well thought out post @thetophus.

It's interesting how you suggest his injuries are the source of Snoke's turn to the Dark Side. I guess my original thought was that he was evil and then got injured - as with the Plagueis story - but of course, one should now unlearn what you have learned! A thought I had a good while ago regarding Snoke was that he could be a Dorian Gray type figure....

Instead of Snoke worrying about losing his looks (which would be ridiculous, although it kind of chimes with the beautiful angel idea...let's not go there), Snoke is injured somehow and is dying/losing power. The only way he can regain his strength is by turning to the Dark Side...

Now, part of my Plagueis theory is that after Sidious damaged him, Plagueis survived by living off the Dark Side. It healed him but when the balance was restored for the light side, this diminished the Dark Side and thus Plagueis was weakened again - this was all to do with how Snoke is described as vulnerable and not prepared to face Luke yet.

So anyway, this can be transferred to Angel/Whill Snoke. He's good but powerful. He's injured. He survives off the Dark Side. He is happy to see the rise of the Sith and doesn't interfere because the Sith's rise empowers the Dark Side which empowers him. Then Vader returns to the light and kills Sidious - this balances the Force, diminishes the Dark Side and Snoke is vulnerable again - meaning he has to act himself (something he doesn't like to do as he is vulnerable, he isn't immortal and knows he can be killed. He's a bit of a coward in that respect).

This is why Snoke seems less committed to galactic rule in both his history (of not getting involved and observing events) and in his manner and actions so far in the ST (not being all that fussed by Starkillers destruction - he just wants conflict and the end of the Jedi).

 

Well that's compelling.

 

It's the same conclusion I came to for Plagueis being out of it and then returning to the fold.
The two theories are the only options for me - with Plagueis being ahead in my book because of his existing connection to the saga and direct correlation to the Skywalker family. But I wouldn't flip out at his exclusion and Whill/Angel Snoke's inclusion...

 

Nice work, McDiarmid, on that diagram and for presenting some important considerations!

Great posts, master_shaitan. Each time we seem to get a little bit closer to some basic truth about Snoke.


This "Fallen Angel" theory contrasts well with the long-debated Plagueis one, and it can even find some common elements there.

Still, Snoke remains elusive. I know it's always a point to be made that "back stories" are for comics and novels, but for a major Snoke-level antagonist, we do need certain key in-film details.

Arguably one of the most "optimal" arcs is the Darth Plagueis theory, as it already has a basis in the cinematic saga -- and, more importantly, we have Palpatine as a solid reference point, having learned from and being the apprentice of DP.

Snoke does not have any such major reference point yet especially due to his "Darthless" nature. I wonder, if, by saying that, Pablo truly meant Snoke was never a Sith, either in name or a previous identity he later abandoned or renounced.

"Fallen Angel Snoke," as this thread shows, still requires some foundation and an explanation -- definitely some on-screen exposition as well, perhaps even a Sauronesque/Lord of the Rings-level flashback to give him some essential definition.

As "Plagueis Snoke", Snoke's motives could be relatively easily revealed and extrapolated.

"Fallen Angel Snoke" could theoretically be quickly presented / easily expanded upon if there were some in-film foundation for his character -- or if his character was not really that deep.

In any "new" capacity, more exposition becomes necessary to establish some primary things we want or need to know about Snoke, such as

• who he really is
• what his motives are
• what are his goals
• how he got injured
• why he is obsessed with the Skywalkers
• how he knew about Darth Vader
• what he did (and/or where/who/what he was) during the rise of the Empire
• why is he presently a Dark Sider
• why did he form the First Order

It's interesting that the "Fallen Angel" carries with it a load of Biblical / mythological / legendary implications, more so perhaps than the Plagueis option, and the many questions it provokes is notable.

It does get more complicated if Snoke is a Whill and a fallen angel and then borderline incomprehensible if Snoke is all three: a fallen angel who was a Whill who went by the name of Darth Plagueis.

So, for clarity and conciseness, at the expense of some details and history, the Snoke revealed to us might be less than the sum of two or three of these things. The writers simply might make him "a new species" instead of a Diathim, for example. Or he might be simply an ancient character, like Maz, who, simply through their statement of age, are expected to have had many experiences and seen much happen in their lifetimes and be "deep" in that implied way without getting bogged down in exposition.

That Snoke was intended to provoke speculation is an interesting decision in terms of storytelling. Much of the movie seems to have founded on that principle of indefinite details for all its major characters.

I do appreciate and enjoy how this creates plenty of room for interpretation and theories. The thing that concerns me the most, though, is the limited number of minutes the storytellers have to work with in the next two films: how much will they realistically be able to reveal over the next two movies while also dealing with the present and future situations and character developments in those films?

In any event, I admire the discussion so far and look forward to hearing more.

JediMasterRobert

 

Which fits in nicely with the only passage we have from the Journal of the Whills:
"First comes the day
Then comes the night.
After the darkness
Shines through the light.
The difference, they say,
Is only made right
By the resolving of gray
Through refined Jedi sight."
―Journal of the Whills, 7:477

 

Indeed. And it suggests more so that balance, as I originally suspected, was the equality of good and evil, light and dark in the Universe.
There is this suggestion, with quotes from Lucas that do back it up, that balance = 100% light side and 0% Dark Side.
However, I think this has been misinterpreted. I think that it is more to do with 0% Dark Side users/Sith - or evil doers who are actively spreading evil.

The Whill's poem, speaks of how the balance is made right by the resolving of the grey through Jedi sight.
This to me confirms of course that the Jedi are required to rid the galaxy of those who use the Dark Side but that they are not there to complete eradicate evil.
Could good even exist without evil?
For me, the Sith (and such like) empower the Dark Side and evil in the galaxy so that it is the dominant Force. It leaves the Force in darkness and that galaxy with it.
So the Jedi must find a way of fighting and getting rid of these evil doers whilst at the same time ensuring that they don't add to the Dark Side.

This balance will be in flux. Evil will rise. And hopefully good will be there to face it and restore equality.
Maybe this however tells us more about Snoke's motives?
If he requires the Dark Side to survive as I suspect, then he would wish to put an end to this cycle as every time balance is restored, his life is threatened.
So Snoke's goal, more so than ruling the galaxy, is to unbalance the Force and leave it in darkness FOREVER....

 

I've tended to regard the "Resolving of gray" line as transcending the "good is a point of view" perspective through wisdom and therefore knowing or doing or being goodness through that "refined sight."

Otherwise, we are left in a perpetual state of Moral Relativism in which "evil" is simply "a point of view":
http://www.iep.utm.edu/moral-re/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism

or more generally a simplistic sense of Perspectivism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspectivism)

or Moral Nihilism even (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_nihilism).

The philosopher Nietzsche tried to resolve this in his own way in Beyond Good and Evil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Good_and_Evil), as others have.

I think the Jedi, at their best, serve and preserve the Force, selflessly acting and living so as not to disturb it but rather let it flow naturally, as it arises from life, whereas the Sith had derived their powers through unnaturally disturbing it and taking advantage of it for selfish reasons.

So, as I see it, the Jedi can help maintain that balance, and that does not mean "eradicating evil" but rather simply bringing an end to unnatural tappings of that vital energy.


JediMasterRobert

 

I agree 100%. The Jedi's role is to find a way to destroy the Sith without becoming a part of the problem - e.g. as what happened with the Clone Wars.
The eradication of the Dark Side in it's entirety doesn't make much sense to me. Like I say, no evil = no good.
It's just a case of returning the natural harmony that exists between the two (with everything in between being grey).
Only the Jedi can do this as only they have the wisdom, sight and then power to defeat those that wish to spread evil everywhere.

 

What is the significance of 7:477? There is no layman reason to begin the novelization with the Journal of the Whills unless it has deeper meaning.

 

The author, Alan Dean Foster, did exactly the same with the novelisation of A New Hope I believe...

 

Ah, but since it was a "dropped" idea, did Foster include it this time for sentimental reasons? Its use as a marker of time is interesting.

 

Yes, and this is why when Yoda spoke of a Jedi having "the deepest commitment" and "the most serious mind" I believe he was ultimately speaking towards that essential greater awareness, which creates responsibility, which leads to wisdom -- and then Yoda contrasting that, at the same, with concepts such as "adventure" and "excitement," which no Jedi, he indicated, should "crave."

So from that, a Jedi does not usually go "out there" looking to stir things up in the galaxy or seek excitement, but rather, as Obi-Wan Kenobi phrased it, a Jedi becomes "a guardian of peace and justice."

Guarding peace, preserving justice by resolving the gray and exercising a higher wisdom afforded by being in harmony with the Force.

This is why, when the Sith insist "peace is a lie," it becomes forever unobtainable in their philosophy, and they lead themselves to bringing disorder and destruction -- to the Force, to themselves, and to the galaxy.

For their short-term gains they introduce generational and galactic-scale suffering and send the Force into a tailspin.

No wonder Darth Plagueis, "wise" as he was, had warned Palpatine the Force itself could "strike back."
^--- that's a canon point BTW via the Tarkin novel...

JediMasterRobert