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SPECULATION Snoke, The Solo Cameo and the "general audience" argument. (Spoilers for Solo)

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Andrew Waples, Jun 2, 2018.

  1. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    While I wasn't necessarily a fan, but it makes me wonder about Snoke and what that could mean for 9. Take Maul out of the movie and nothing is changed and nothing is added. Though it does explain what happens to Kira, but I don't think it was necessary. So, they've essentially went and said "hope you have watched The Clone Wars." Now this I absolutely love and what that could mean for something like a World between Worlds that was seen in Rebels. The whole "general audience" thing though, is Lucasfilm trying to tell them that death isn't necessarily final for Force users? It's making me wonder if Snoke is truly dead. The cameo was so short that I'm wondering what that could mean for Snoke or even Luke for that matter; beyond Luke just showing up as a Force ghost.
     
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  2. zazeron

    zazeron Rebelscum

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    This film was a box office disaster and it is sadly the disney star wars film with the most eu references, expect for Disney to triple down on the "no worldbuilding/political background" rule
     
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  3. Jack_Forest

    Jack_Forest Force Sensitive

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    I think it's time to let go of Snoke, since he was nothing but an obstacle to Kylo Ren's character development. As for Luke - we have seen that he became "one with the Force" (or something), so if he ever comes back - it would only be as a force ghost.
     
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  4. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    I'm just thinking what this means for a "general audience" you are asking a lot out of them for such a short scene in which the character died. I'm just sorta spitballing here.
     
  5. LarsSkywalker

    LarsSkywalker Rebel Official

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    Maybe they wanted to meet their quota that every Star Wars movie includes a darksider, and a lightsaber igniting.
     
  6. Fearghas_Ajax

    Fearghas_Ajax Rebel Official

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    Well, RO had Vader so I guess they tried to throw Maul in this one since he was brought back in the EU.

    As far as Snoke, I think he is dead. Especially with the last scene of him on the ground with his tongue sticking out. He was left laying there for everyone to see and eventually someone would have need to dispose of his body where as Maul you just see him falling in a pit after being cut in two pieces. I liked Maul in Rebels and in CW but can't say I totally agree with bringing someone back like that.
     
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  7. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    He's dead. He has to be. He was a plot device for Kylo's character development. They would destroy Kylo's arc if they bring back Snoke from the dead. He can still appear in visions, dreams or as a voice in Kylo's head though.

    The Maul cameo was cool, but it could have easily been anyone. Maybe even Snoke himself.
     
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  8. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    That is my point. It could have been anybody. It probably should have been, because of the "general audience".
     
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  9. Jack_Forest

    Jack_Forest Force Sensitive

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    I don't think "general audiences" care about Snoke too much. Sure, if JJ wanted to bring him back, than yes - Maul could be used to prepare the audiences for that. But I'd rather he didn't do that.
     
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  10. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    If we're going to undo one death... and that points to undoing Snoke death...

    Why stop there? (emperor)
     
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  11. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Sensitive

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    Yes! We can bring back Dak!!!
     
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  12. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I've posted this before, but I think we may be thinking too hard for general audiences.

    While we may think:
    "How on Earth are they going to rationalize that Maul survived for a decade, built himself spider legs, was found by another Zabrak sith and revitalized with Dathomiri witch magic, became a Mandalorian crime lord, killed Obi Wan's girlfriend, and was recaptured by Sidious only to escape at some later date?"

    The average moviegoer might just say:

    "Huh, I knew it was weird that they 'killed him off' so quickly!"

    The details are inconsequential. I guess it can be like that old anime rule of thumb- if you don't see a character die, they might still be alive. It's reasonable enough that a sith lord could've survived that.

    As for the implications it has- I don't think death is all that cheapened. There were already theories that Snoke was still alive. Maybe this will feed into those more, but I don't think it really changes anything. At the end of the day, Snoke is either dead or alive (or any other alternatives Schroedinger would like to provide, of course). I'm not sure Maul's fate affects that.
     
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  13. ScumAndVillainy

    ScumAndVillainy Rebelscum

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    Ya.. but we saw Snoke 'die'. We saw that other guy 'die'. And we saw Palpatine 'die'.

    What you're saying here is... even if you see the guy 'die', they still might be alive!

    I mean... how is:
    The death of Darth Maul different from the death of Palpatine? They both were last seen getting the shaft. If anything, DM was worse in that he was split in half, yet he gets to come back?

    Its just the funnybook or sci-fi trope that death is only real if the writers want it to be. Even then, it might not stick, if the character is popular enough.

    There should be someone to make sure he doesn't fully die though. A fail-safe. I vote Qi`Ra doing whatever shenanigans are needed to bring him back.
     
  14. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I guess it's not that different at all, really, at least not from a non-meta standpoint.

    Except that Palpatine's death is necessary for the story, while Maul's really isn't necessarily.

    If we find out sometime that Luke fought a resurrected Palpatine between ROTJ and TFA (like he did in Legends) Vader's sacrifice is cheapened. Obi Wan doesn't really have that same problem with Maul- and in fact, their relationship is actually strengthened by Maul's later arcs, culminating in one of Obi Wan's biggest moments of character development.

    I think all we can take away is yeah, Maul survived. Palpatine almost certainly didn't. They're two different situations with different outcomes.

    Yep, that's pretty much just a trait of fiction.

    You think Qi'Ra should bring Snoke back? Or Maul?
    She'd be way too young to have saved Maul, and I'm not sure we have any reason for her to save Snoke right now, but it's an interesting thought.
     
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  15. ITG

    ITG Rebel Official

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    So let’s talk about Plagueis.....
     
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  16. lealt

    lealt Rebel Official

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    I think that was meant as something to please the fans and at the same time as a device
    to catch the attention of the GA.

    The latter- out of curiosuty - would have looked for an answer and discovered TCW and Rebels.

    That was probably the purpose... to build up an interest in the "universe".

    Not saying it worked orit didn't, but that maybe, that was the reasoning.

    That said, I still think that the problem is not that the GA didn't like or understand the movie.
    The main problem is that people generally speaking was not interested...
     
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  17. Fuzzball

    Fuzzball Rebel Official

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    If we're serious about bringing Snoke back, then there needs to be justifiable reasons for doing so. It should be beneficial to the overall story. However, like some people have already mentioned, I have my reservations about that. He was clearly a plot-device and bringing him back would require dedicating screen-time to a superfluous character that was never the focus. We know he'll just die again anyway so what's the point?

    Despite my doubts, I do believe there are reasons for his return.

    Star Wars has always included the message that death isn't final. Overcoming death has been a recurring theme since the beginning - from the Originals to the Prequels to the Sequels. Of course, this theme only involved the Jedi and their force ghost ability. In truth, this is the Jedi's greatest power and the dark-side simply never had an answer for it. No matter what Palpatine or Snoke may have planned to accomplish with their power, the Jedi simply would've outlasted and outlived them. To truly defeat the Jedi requires conquering their force ghost ability, but did Snoke know that? Did he even know that despite killing "the last remaining Jedi" that death isn't the end for them but makes them even more powerful? What was Snoke's plan for dealing with these ghosts?

    You can now put the same questions to Kylo Ren or any dark-sider planning complete domination of the Force. Not until a dark-sider learns to master and defeat death can they wipe out the Jedi for good.

    My ideal scenario for Snoke's return would be that he's become a demon-like force ghost and the final frontier between the Jedi and the dark-side would exist in the realm of the Netherworld. Snoke vs the Jedi ghosts (Luke, Anakin, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon). Snoke unleashes dark-side spirits of the Sith against the Jedi to purge them from existence, before seeking to possess a powerful Force user (Rey/Kylo) to return once again to the physical realm. You know, just something crazy like that would be amazing in my book! This idea actually originates from the Last Jedi concept art book which includes,


    However, I can see how such a story wouldn't be feasible with the amount of other characters in EP9. If Snoke returns at all it will most likely be in a prequel, but Andy Serkis is such a tease when it comes to discussing Snoke's death with his big cheeky grin in this video (1:35-3:05).

     
  18. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebelscum

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    I'm befuddled by the attraction to Snoke of course I'm not even over the moon with Palpatine so the archetype is not really my cup of tea.

    I'm super glad the bridges to ROTJ with different names were cut.

    People can be really funny though. A good friend of mine was meh to disappointed with TFA for being rehash but between TFA and TLJ he made some weird peace with it and decided to love a good rehash and is now meh to disappointed with Last Jedi for crapping out the rehash.

    He seriously had decided he wanted Luke to get captured and frozen in Carbonite or something similar so Rey, Finn, and Poe could rescue him.

    If Disney is crazy enough to try to make any consistent and over arching sense of what fans of this franchise want they deserve to be parted from their money.

    I think the only real path forward is to just crank out the content with the intent of appealing to the different factions of Yugosl...err...Star Wars Fandom and hope for as much crossover as possible.

    Can we all get along?
    Eventually...yes but it will require retraining the audience that they will be served if not with the current outing then the next or the one after that and that we are not operating under or like a sole proprietorship where all we get is what is being served and not too much of that either because one man can only do so much.

    Of course part of the deal is solidarity whenever it can be mustered. Ideally, I at least check out one person's beloved Phantom Menace and they pony up and my treasured Last Jedi. We both at least try the next person's Solo who will catch Asoka with us and we all give yet another person's Rogue One a shot and in a few months we all go see AOTC and have a drink and talk about the TV series at the bar.

    More Star Wars less Wars about Canon, I sez.

    Pushing aside the bigots and racist portions of the equation and I think that is actually the real fight that is going on and the debate about individual movies is mostly about that and seemingly to some degree about iconography.

    I think if people felt confident their tones, stories, and visuals were going to be delivered there would be less gnashing of teeth and frustration.

    The problem is that at some point you can't really pull off doing things that conflict completely without willful and extreme audience fragmentation and literally creating different iterations of the galaxy to suit varying tastes.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 5, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 5, 2018 ---
    It doesn't seem to matter too much, the movie seemingly is completely fed by die hard fans seeing it multiple times already.
    If general audiences were showing up we wouldn't be having this conversation unless they were pushing back due to confusion.

    Maybe with Netflix and cable Solo can become the Eddie and the Cruisers of the Star Wars Galaxy and be a cult success and then we can then explain what has been going on with Maul (might skip the part where he was just killed off again by Obi-Wan again a few months ago a little before Star Wars to keep the WTF?!? levels minimal).
     
  19. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    Ok. Plagueis and Snoke have something in common besides being dark side users. Plagueis is dead. Snoke is dead
     
  20. ZDTemplar

    ZDTemplar Rebel Trooper

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    The also had some differences.

    Like, Plagueis was a developed character that had motivations, instead of being an hollow tool for another character's arc.
     
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