1. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

Snokes Death Forced Abrams Hand for Palpatines Return in The Rise of Skywalker

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by SWNN Probe, Dec 30, 2019.

  1. SWNN Probe

    SWNN Probe Seeker

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2016
    Posts:
    3,006
    Likes Received:
    6,970
    Trophy Points:
    3,842
    Credits:
    7,563
    Ratings:
    +11,006 / 19 / -12
    [​IMG]

    Chain reactions, they create alternate timelines from the path we're on, taking us in directions we may not have otherwise gone. According to The Rise of Skywalker co-writer Chris Terrio, Snoke's death in The Last Jedi left a void for a powerful overarching villain, and who better to take that place to complete the story of Palpatine/Skywalker than the one who has been seeking immortality from the beginning?





    In an interview with Awards Daily, Chris Terrio talks about the chain of events and decision making that led to the return of Palpatine in The Rise of Skywalker. The first point, which caught me a bit off guard, was how involved Kathleen Kennedy and Michelle Rejwan (recently promoted Senior VP of live action development and production - Lucasfilm) were in the story's endgame.

    The redemption of Ben Solo was the core to which the story of Episode IX had to wrap itself around, in addition to Rey completing the journey of self discovery despite her dark lineage, of course. The death of Supreme Leader Snoke in The Last Jedi vaulted Kylo Ren as the trilogy's new 'big bad' which obviously made it a bit more difficult to turn him in Episode IX without another significant antagonist. Sure, they could have gone the way of The Rock and had Kylo Ren have a moment of realization that what he had done was wrong, but I think the idea of defeating another entity holds more weight. Terrio explains how Snoke's death put the return of Palpatine (an idea Kathleen Kennedy was very interested in from the beginning of this trilogy) into overdrive.

    [​IMG]



    Terrio explains the return in a simplistic way, which when you think about it, really makes a lot of logical sense. As I said before, you could have just had Kylo Ren be the lead villain and make a sacrifice or something at the end, putting a stop to what he was doing. But I think the return of Palpatine, the villain obsessed with power and immortality since the prequels, makes a lot of sense for the final chapter in this saga. He caused and created the grief stricken upon the Skywalker family from the onset, so why not one more round? Kathleen Kennedy seemed strongly held on tying these nine stories together, which always kept the return of Palpatine as a tempting and lingering thought.

    I am sure there were plenty of discussions between Kennedy and Abrams that took place in how this could be achieved, and it wouldn't work if Abrams wasn't on board, though according to Terrio it sounds like Abrams embraced the challenge of returning to the most evil person in Star Wars history.

    I have heard some say they should have just introduced a new threat, but you don't attempt to end a nine story saga by all of a sudden tossing in a new big evil entity in the final chapter. The options were to have Kylo Ren go full evil as the main villain, have the entity of Palpatine return, or introduce a new main evil antagonist, and I think they made the right choice for the end they wanted, which was the return of Han and Leia's son to the light.



    [​IMG]



    While never explicitly stated, and there being no need to retroactively say 'what I would have done', it appears clear that J.J. Abrams probably wouldn't have killed Snoke in Episode VIII had he written it. But it doesn't matter. They had to finish a story based on what existed while trying to reach their desired destination, and that destination was redeeming Ben Solo.



    I completely understand feeling like the return of Palpatine was a bit rushed or uninspired, I can see that and appreciate that point. To me it makes complete sense that the most evil villain in the history of the franchise returned for the final chapter in this saga, especially when immortality and cheating death for eternal power was his primary motivation since the beginning.



    A fun little fact to close things out here, some of you may know that I have been poking fun about Matt Smith probably not being in The Rise of Skywalker for almost a year now, even though it was reported he was cast in a significant role. The truth is, I had heard a long time ago that he was involved as some iteration of Palpatine, but Abrams scrapped the idea and brought in McDiarmid in full, which I am eternally grateful for.



    I hope everyone has a Happy New Year!





    Click HERE to check out and comment on this topic on our main site
     
    #1 SWNN Probe, Dec 30, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2019
    • Like Like x 4
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. iostream

    iostream Clone Commander

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2019
    Posts:
    94
    Likes Received:
    236
    Trophy Points:
    487
    Credits:
    306
    Ratings:
    +347 / 2 / -6
    I honestly find it really difficult to believe that they'd let Rian Johnson kill off Snoke if they didn't already have Sidious planned for the finale. Yeah, man, just kill off Snoke that couldn't possibly cause any problems. Very difficult to believe. But, if killing off Snoke was the impetus for necessitating bringing in Sidious and making Rey a Palpatine so that the Skywalker legacy would be bringing balance to everything even the Palpatine family body and the rebirth of the Jedi order through Palpatine bringing the symbiotic relationship theme established all the way back in TPM to fruition in the end then - good work, Rian Johnson for unintentionally forcing that conclusion in TROS. I guess it pays to be wreckless, after all.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Wise Wise x 1
  3. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Posts:
    5,141
    Likes Received:
    29,186
    Trophy Points:
    155,167
    Credits:
    21,850
    Ratings:
    +36,903 / 146 / -95
    If killing Snoke "forced" JJ to use Palpatine, then that's just a very sad commentary on JJ and Terrio's ability to write.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
  4. MasterChubby

    MasterChubby Clone

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2019
    Posts:
    7
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    9
    Credits:
    31
    Ratings:
    +19 / 0 / -0
    Writers can write as they want, I dint care what JJ says his hand was not forced. Palpatine being in the final episode brought everything full circle. Let not think to much into this.
     
    • Like Like x 6
    • Wise Wise x 1
  5. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Posts:
    2,199
    Likes Received:
    4,144
    Trophy Points:
    13,687
    Credits:
    5,408
    Ratings:
    +6,336 / 170 / -36
    I agree as we shouldn’t overanalyze how we got here too much and just focus on the final product. I was not a fan of killing Snoke in TLJ. The end product worked as Palpatine tied everything together. If Random Rey killed Snoke in Episode 9 than the ST would have felt detached from the PT/OT in a narrative sense.

    Now you can watch the PT and see the ascension of The Emperor knowing in the back of your mind that first a Skywalker and then his granddaughter will eventually be his undoing.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  6. Solo

    Solo Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Posts:
    642
    Likes Received:
    1,444
    Trophy Points:
    6,517
    Credits:
    1,977
    Ratings:
    +2,731 / 48 / -19
    This explanation makes the situation even worse tbh.

    Sigh.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  7. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Posts:
    666
    Likes Received:
    1,052
    Trophy Points:
    4,742
    Credits:
    1,172
    Ratings:
    +1,710 / 71 / -28
    Stuff like this is interesting, but it's important to remember that Terrio is working from slightly second-hand knowledge here because he only came into the picture once things with Colin Treverrow's Episode 9 fell apart.

    Abrams, by contrast, knew that Rian wanted to kill Snoke long before he (Abrams) stepped back into the Director's Chair and back behind a writing desk because of his Executive Producer role on TLJ.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  8. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel Commander

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2018
    Posts:
    290
    Likes Received:
    490
    Trophy Points:
    2,582
    Credits:
    738
    Ratings:
    +657 / 7 / -5
    Only from a very formulaic point of view.

    The biggest problem is probably the trilogy structure fixation though. From the beginning a new and evolving story required more than three movies to pull off in staggering fashion when you already spent one setting up new characters and haven't but touched Luke Skywalker yet.

    I more than like The Force Awakens but it creates a scenario where three movies all but demands rehash of the OT with new faces.

    In any event, all in all it I like what we got but it wasn't required to have Palpatine or especially Snoke to tell a great story, in fact I think it would help but that is just me.
     
  9. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Force Attuned

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Posts:
    767
    Likes Received:
    8,593
    Trophy Points:
    17,017
    Credits:
    6,465
    Ratings:
    +9,811 / 27 / -4
    ^This.

    Did Snoke's death really force them to bring back Palpatine? It certainly forced them to bring some sort of villain into this film. Kylo simply sn't the big bad.
    So what were their options?

    1) Introduce a new "big bad." In the space of a single film, establish him as a Saga-defining major threat. Because, after all, this is the final movie of the Saga, and the villain's defeat needs to mean something for all 9 films.

    2) Bring back an existing villain as the "big bad." Build off of established character development. The relevance to the Saga is built n.

    I don't see a third option. You come up with something new and somehow make it matter to the entire Saga, or you bring back someone old.

    The first six films of the Skywalker Saga feature Palpatine as the villain, either behind the scenes or explicitly. It's as much the Palpatine saga as the Skywalker saga. Bringing him back--and bringing him back without disguise, no longer pretending to be a kind politician, no longer hiding behind a Republic or an Empire--is a perfect way to close the Saga.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  10. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Posts:
    666
    Likes Received:
    1,052
    Trophy Points:
    4,742
    Credits:
    1,172
    Ratings:
    +1,710 / 71 / -28
    Before TRoS' release, Colin Trevorrow said that bringing back Palpatine is an idea that never would have occurred to him, but I honestly can't envision a scenario in which somebody didn't at least mention the idea to him, and so I can't help but wonder if he was trying to avoid having his name attached to a story idea that had been proposed to him but that he'd rejected.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  11. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Posts:
    4,235
    Likes Received:
    8,254
    Trophy Points:
    91,002
    Credits:
    8,584
    Ratings:
    +13,711 / 148 / -70
    I don't have a problem with Palpatine being in it. But they also could've had the best of both worlds by having Snoke come back only to lead them to Palpatine who was pretending to be Snoke. It would've had even more impact.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. SlimerJoel

    SlimerJoel Clone

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Posts:
    21
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    12
    Credits:
    75
    Ratings:
    +50 / 1 / -0
    I don't like the idea that they couldn't turn Ben without a greater antagonist at work. To me that just screams poor writing.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  13. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Posts:
    4,235
    Likes Received:
    8,254
    Trophy Points:
    91,002
    Credits:
    8,584
    Ratings:
    +13,711 / 148 / -70
    Did we see the same movie? How does it scream poor writing when they didn't even use Palpatine at all for Ben's redemption? They used Han's memory, Leia speaking out in the force and Rey healing him.
     
    • Like Like x 7
  14. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Posts:
    5,141
    Likes Received:
    29,186
    Trophy Points:
    155,167
    Credits:
    21,850
    Ratings:
    +36,903 / 146 / -95
    You're right. Palpatine was largely superfluous to the story and unneeded.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  15. JediJarJar

    JediJarJar Clone Commander

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2019
    Posts:
    42
    Likes Received:
    192
    Trophy Points:
    287
    Credits:
    251
    Ratings:
    +230 / 8 / -13
    I think Snoke was planned by J.J to be a much older and more powerful darksider than Palpatine but when RJ killed him off he created a problem for J.J, yes.Perhaps he should have brought Snoke back in IX as the son of Mortis! A villain who was watching the rise and fall of the empire and who had more advanced ships and weapons under his control than the emperor, see SKB and Snokes big ass ship.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Wise Wise x 1
  16. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Posts:
    5,141
    Likes Received:
    29,186
    Trophy Points:
    155,167
    Credits:
    21,850
    Ratings:
    +36,903 / 146 / -95
    Or, it could have just been about Kylo Ren and the redemption of Ben Solo. And you wouldn't need Snoke or Palpatine but run with the grandson of Darth Vader.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Wise Wise x 2
  17. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2014
    Posts:
    4,235
    Likes Received:
    8,254
    Trophy Points:
    91,002
    Credits:
    8,584
    Ratings:
    +13,711 / 148 / -70
    I didn't say that and I don't agree. I said he had no affect on Ben's redemption.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,190
    Likes Received:
    3,370
    Trophy Points:
    11,667
    Credits:
    4,541
    Ratings:
    +5,210 / 28 / -13
    Your link to the AwardsDaily article is broken.
    Need to replace this:
    https://www.awardsdaily.com/2019/12...g-the-42-year-skywalker-saga/' rel='noopener

    With this:
    https://www.awardsdaily.com/2019/12...-terrio-on-ending-the-42-year-skywalker-saga/

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Posts:
    5,141
    Likes Received:
    29,186
    Trophy Points:
    155,167
    Credits:
    21,850
    Ratings:
    +36,903 / 146 / -95
    Then why bring him back other than to satiate fans with a name drop?
    I don't see what he brings to the actual story other than fan pats on the back.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  20. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,190
    Likes Received:
    3,370
    Trophy Points:
    11,667
    Credits:
    4,541
    Ratings:
    +5,210 / 28 / -13
    They wanted an antagonist and did not want Kylo to be the sole antagonist because they wanted him to have a redemption story, and in the Saga cyclical storyline a redemption for the lost lamb requires a sacrificial salvation by the lost lamb while saving the troubled hero.

    Kylo needed a Palp archetype to save Rey from as Anakin once had one to save Luke from.

    They did not want a new character at the last minute for Kylo to save Rey from and redeem himself through, and they wanted a very big and dark figure to lock on, and they wanted Rey directly tied to a horrid truth which she needed to choose to reject in a moment of self definition.

    Given factors such as this, as Abrams stated, Palpatine was kind of inevitable in choice.

    Not everyone likes the chiastic narrative form of these films and finds them wasteful, but they are how they are written and why things happen the way they do.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    • Like Like x 5
Loading...

Share This Page