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Snokes Death Forced Abrams Hand for Palpatines Return in The Rise of Skywalker

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by SWNN Probe, Dec 30, 2019.

  1. Josh

    Josh Rebel Official

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    like I said, creative bankruptcy


    He probably left the project because he didnt want to bring papatine back.
     
    #21 Josh, Jan 1, 2020
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  2. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    The amount of creativity that 9 took to pull off was more than anyone on this forum has ever likely accomplished in literary form.
    The razor thin wire rope tricks required to round-robin through all prior 8 films and finale the saga as well as write the script around extant footage of Carrie Fisher so that she could be in the film is considerable.

    Give it shot. Go write a script for 9 that chiastically bounces through every theme and motif of all prior 8 films, gives Rey a terrifying dilemma to face and make a choice against, has a redemption story for Kylo Ren, molds around the recovered footage of Carrie Fisher to give her a send-off, and finale's the entire Saga's total story line in a way that ties all three trilogies together.

    I'm not saying "put up or shut up"; not at all.
    I'm saying that if you want to know how much creativity it took to make this script, give it a shot!
    It's really not easy, and took a high amount of creative skill to accomplish whether you like the story or not.

    No. He was let go because his story ideas weren't meshing with where the creative team at LFL and Disney had originally rough sketched out where things were heading in 9; he couldn't figure out how to stick the landing.
    Further, Trevorrow, in talking of things, also commends Abrams on bringing Palpatine back and thinks it was a crucial key element to solving the puzzle of 9's script challenges.

    "Bringing back the Emperor was an idea JJ brought to the table when he came on board, It's honestly something I never considered. I commend him for it. This was a tough story to unlock, and he found the key."
    -- Colin Trevorrow

    He also thinks well of the film and thanks Abrams for keeping some of his ideas around.
    "I'm grateful to JJ for embracing some of our ideas. It's exciting that fans will get to see the moments that felt essential to all of us."
    -- Colin Trevorrow
    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #22 Jayson, Jan 1, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
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  3. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    As I understand things, Treverrow and Lucasfilm parted ways primarily because he couldn't figure out how to craft a story for Episode 9 that didn't involve Leia, not because of any creative disagreements.
     
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  4. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    There appears to be both.

    Kennedy talked of some issues being an issue of not getting in direction of ending things where they had originally imagined, and cites the issue of him not being around during 7 like Abrams and Johnson to be immersed in the ideas.

    I think it was Abrams who also added that he struggled with Leia.

    And Trevorrow talks of not being able to figure out the key element to lock everything into place.

    Regardless of which notion you go with, it appears he couldn't find his creative footing - similar to what Ardnt expressed experiencing with 7.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  5. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    I believe that Michael Arndt turned in a finished draft of Episode 7 that Abrams and/or Kathleen Kennedy ultimately didn't like, which is why Abrams asked to work with Lawrence Kasdan and be allowed to rewrite the script.

    Treverrow, by contrast, couldn't actually finalize a script draft, as far as I know, even though Lucasfilm gave him a lot of time to do so and even hired Jack Thorne to help him out.
     
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  6. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    According to Kasdan and Arndt, Arndt couldn't finish the draft, and struggled with Luke, given Lucas' ideas - which were basically shades of what became 8.

    It was Arndt who told the new crew after the Disney purchas that the ideas and treatment he had written for 7 should be moved to 8 because he couldn't see how they could work for 7.

    Everyone agreed and 7 absented Luke and focused on Rey.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  7. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend
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    I can't really believe that Palpatine wasn't on the table at all before jj returned. Didn't Aftermath hint the involvement of him in some ways early on.
     
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  8. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    He was on the table ruminating, but to what level is unclear.

    Dome interviews seem to point to a more direct plan, while others less. It's a bit foggy.

    My bet is the general interest was there - a want, but not the exact plan or how.

    Cheers,
    Jaydon
     
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  9. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    But they could have easily worked with what the previous movie had established.

    Kylo as main baddie who has to be overcome by Ben Solo. Hux betraying Kylo and becoming the Supreme Leader etc.

    There was no need for Palpatine at all.
     
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  10. JediJarJar

    JediJarJar Rebelscum

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    I am torn apart.Palpatine as the main villain of all episodes makes sense but Kylo Ren as a next level villain too.:confused: i want to be free of this pain.
     
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  11. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    He was there as a threat to Kylo at first. Kylo went to take care of that threat but then learned something about Rey which deterred him from killing Palpatine. Along the way Kylo was redeemed. While Rey also learned a truth.

    His purpose was more for Rey than Ben. She along with the Jedi of the past got rid of the threat that if she had struck him down he'd been back full Sith force. But that didn't happen. She did something different.

    If Kylo had been the only ultimate threat which he was the bad guy and Rey just outright killed him. It would've went against what she seen in him. Which was good. Her sole purpose along with Leia was to turn him back. Even though she almost killed him, but not on purpose.
     
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  12. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    But did he?
    I don't think he did. It felt contrived, rushed and unnecessary.
    Kylo could absolutely be the sole antagonist and still get redeemed...that's what Hux could be used for.

    The true battle is about Ben vs Kylo. Light vs Dark. But in the end it's kind of the Palpatine saga not the Skywalker Saga.

    I like the chiastic nature of the films but there's a point where that is just a crutch not the reason.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 1, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 1, 2020 ---
    Something Rey didn't need to learn because it was essentially learned already: Her past doesn't matter. What path she chooses matters. That's handed to her in TLJ. This is just about adding a brand name to it.

    How does any of this change because of Palpatine? She still killed him then saved his life. She could have done the same thing without Palpatine and moved him to change with Hux the usurper taking control of the FO. Then Ben Solo shows up in the big battle telling her no one is ever really gone.

    Yes he was there more for Rey, but Rey was ultimately there to help Ben turn back. It just fell flat for me. Her being a Palpatine is still a joke to me and feels like JJ caving to dolts online who were mad we didn't just get a bunch of family reveals. Same with them making Finn force sensitive and Janna Lando's daughter (possibly, this seems to be a bit more grey but it's looking likely). I wish I felt as positive about Palpatine's inclusion in this as you all do, but to me it just screams "We couldn't figure anything else out" when surrounded by the context of other things in the film.
     
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  13. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    I'm with you in that Rey didn't need to be a Palpatine and it's one thing I didn't like. The other thing is Palpatine having a son. But I have no problem with Palpatine being in the movie.
     
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  14. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    If they had set it up in *some* tiny minuscule way in TFA or TLJ, I wouldn't hate it. But they didn't. It felt panicky to me. *shrug*
     
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  15. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    Ok. That's information that I wasn't aware of, so thank you.
     
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  16. Darth Chewie

    Darth Chewie Rebel Official

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    Which asks yet another question that intrigues me. Which story elements from Trevorrow did they keep? Must have been enough to give him credit on the story at then end of the film, much like Michael Arndt was given story credit for TFA.
     
    #36 Darth Chewie, Jan 1, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
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  17. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    They didn't think so. Hux didn't seem big enough of a threat to tie all three trilogies together with, which is what they wanted out of Palp.

    Thematically tie all three trilogies, push upon Rey, allow Kylo to save Rey.

    You could write a version where Hux is in place of everything, but LFL/Disney, Abrams, Terrio, Trevarrow, and apparently Lucas all thought the Palpatine direction was the right one to carry the gravitas needed in the conclusions.

    I keep saying this but it's only because I think it's the only way to know.
    If you think there was a better answer, give a swing at the script and try to beat it while sticking to the same requirements put on this film:
    Rey struggle to maintain the light.
    Kylo flip and save Rey, redeeming himself.
    Kylo and Rey have thematic mirrors of Vader and Luke - especially Vader's redemption.
    Cycle through all 8 prior films themes and mirror all of them in finale.
    Mold the story around recovered footage of Carrie Fisher for her send-off, and make her part of the Jedi pantheon.
    Tie all three trilogies together with this one film; not just end the sequel trilogy, but link all three trilogies together in a common loud thread.

    I'm not saying you can't.
    I'm saying it's really dang hard, and I'm not sure Hux is big enough. I never gave a ding about Hux more than the various officers in the OT who continued to be Vader's foils.
    It's not like Hux was ever Tarkin to Ren; especially by the end of 8.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  18. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    it's really not.

    they could have used the established trajectory from TFA and the EU:

    the FO taps into Palpatine's contingency which effectively brings the spirit and menace of Palpatine into the mix without having to have him be physically present. this ties into the themes of unfinished business, which includes Leia's never addressed failure to reconcile with Vader.

    once you have the FO meddling with Force magic, you have the established conflict of the ex-imperials who want to restore Palpatine's empire and the younger generation who thinks Sheev was an embarrassing failure that should not be repeated (past vs, present, generational trauma, etc.). also: technology vs. "magic" (again, longstanding theme).

    Hux and Pryde clash and the FO fractures into First and Final Order while not-so-Supreme Leader Ren is off chasing Scavenger, basically letting the galaxy go to seed because of his distraction. the result is total chaos on a galactic scale with choosing sides more complicated than ever. this motivates both Orders to start destroying each other's conquered planets, raising the stakes and actually motivating planetary destruction. otherwise why blow up planets? there'd be no one left to rule over. : o p

    instead we got Palpatine vs. Palpatine: a one on one battle (do we even trust the final outcome?) while galactic peace is restored and the villains of the ST (the First Order) is defeated/resolved somewhere off-screen. and instead of an integrated nine-episode saga, we're left with no more certain resolution than we had at the end of RotJ except that house Skywalker and house Organa are now extinct.
     
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  19. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Folks keep saying it's not hard, but you're talking about a bunch of professional writers who couldn't pull this off without Palpatine, and everyone of these professional writers and story tellers, and that would seem to include Lucas, agreed that Palpatine's return was a good idea.

    I'm going to wager that if we sit down and actually try writing the script, we'll run into the same problems they ran into, and the EU was thrown out early on - they only hen pick pieces here and there, and do their own thing (which, I'm quite happy with - I do not like the EU at all).

    I don't personally think that a left over contingency is anywhere close to the same as the personal presence of a demonic Hitler.

    Further, the themes and motifs that this appears to set up are not the themes and motifs that have been present in the past in form. The story has never been in a state of chaos. It's always been in a state of a soap opera battle between Palp and Skywalkers.

    Honestly, not having Palpatine in the film would probably been a bummer for me as the more I look at it, the less interesting everyone's alternate ideas get to me.

    I don't see how this messy chaos of a more EU style story would tie the three trilogies together in a personal sense.
    It all seems a bit vague to me to go about it that way.

    Rey battling against her lineage, Palp being back, Kylo dying in an act of salvation...all very personal relationships back to the other two trilogies.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  20. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i guess it comes down to personal preference, doesn't it?
    because none of this (what you wrote) is remotely interesting or resonant for me as a 42-year fan of this franchise.

    [​IMG]
     
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