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Snokes Death Forced Abrams Hand for Palpatines Return in The Rise of Skywalker

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by SWNN Probe, Dec 30, 2019.

  1. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I think so, yes. You don't. Different views. That's Star Wars for you.

    Works for me for multiple reasons. It's always been the Skywalker and Palpatine show.

    I never could take Hux seriously. He's a foil and that's all I ever saw him as. He was never a Tarkin

    I don't think the true battle is Ben vs Kylo. It's both Ben vs. Kylo and Rey vs her lineage, because this is a mirror of both the PT and the OT.
    Rey resonates Luke's story, while Kylo resonates Anakin's.
    It's not one without the other - peanut butter and jelly.

    It's not the Palpatine saga - it's always been the Skywalker and Palpatine show.

    Be that as it may, and I'm quite sure the writers felt it was a crutch constantly, it still has to be maintained for this Saga - that's its tick-tock heart beat, and always has been since day one.

    Not to me. Maybe to you.
    Rey learned before to put her value in her own self, regardless of her past, but she never pushed that to a challenge - she learned to resolve that idea and learned the lesson, but she never stress-tested that resolve in 8.

    That's what 9 does - it puts her resolve to the test. Without 8, Rey has no merit in resolving her independence in 9; if you just from TFA to TROS with Rey, Rey doesn't have built power to deny her lineage; it comes off far weaker because she has never bothered to be self defined like she did in 8.

    8 was a choice. 9 was a test.

    If she wasn't pushed to the test like this, exactly what's left for Rey? Flip on the kick-arse-take-names switch and go, because without the lineage challenge, she has absolutely no internal character struggle left.

    JJ didn't cave to dolts online. They really barely have time to sit around reading people's opinions online.

    Abrams very openly said he wrote what made sense to write; not what fans wanted or didn't want. He had solid reasons for his story decisions whether you like them or not; they were not just pathetic attempts to placate to fans.

    For example, everything you just outlined would have been a terrible story to me, and I'll never take Hux seriously.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 1, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 1, 2020 ---
    Yes, because as an equal fan of the franchise since the beginning of my life and the beginning of the this long saga, this works for me very well, and the other ideas I've seen really, really don't.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 1, 2020 ---
    Must have been quite a bit, yeah.
    I always thought it was odd that Arndt was given credit on 7, but not on 8, when the treatment he wrote for 7 was what became the core spine of what became 8...not 7. He asked them to move his treatment to 8 because he thought Lucas' idea of just jumping into a reclusive and grouchy Luke who no longer believed in the Jedi cause, while also trying to introduce a young female lead of the story just didn't work - you needed to separate the two introductions because of how big Luke's presence is, and how complex his grouchy story is. Anyway...always weird where Arndt got credits.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  2. Maximillian

    Maximillian Rebel General

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    I’m going to try and have a go at this. Writing a detailed treatment with perhaps scene by scene bread down but not all dialog, it would take too long. My feeling is that J.J always considered puppet master palpatine to be a viable option for the story when he wrote TFA. And when he came back on board he just did what he would have done and mostly ignored the interesting threads that Rian introduced in TLJ. Namely, that perhaps cyclical war is not the answer. That theme was really interesting and could have provided a conclusive end but TROS does not tackle it at all. So I will give it a go to write a treatment that hits those goals whilst avoiding palpatines resurrection and Rey palpatine. I however did always thing since TFA that she would be a palpatine. Coz of the fascility she is in in her vision from the saber. I assumed palpatine had made her out of other jedi blood. Hence the voices/power.
     
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  3. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Cool. That'll be a fun read.

    For what it's worth Abrams says without what Johnson did, he wouldn't have been able to write 9 the way he did, and credits Johnson with giving Luke a full arc and Rey proper fuel needed for her story in 9.

    In other words, where some folks see 9 to reject 8, Abrams doesn't at all, and thinks 9 continues the topics raised in 8, especially for Rey.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  4. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I've been thinking about this more, and I know we see things differently, but the reason I have a hard time following this is...

    Well...when did we see anything like this in the PT and OT?
    When was a salvation and atonement, love, and loss wrapped around the generals of the military as the personal conflict?

    Can you walk me through how these ideas chiastically link to Anakin and Luke's story arcs for Kylo and Rey respectively, because that's where I'm having problems.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  5. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

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    why do we need to see something like this before? why not see something new?
    if i wanted something the same, i'd just watch the OT again.

    just because you can make chiastic connections in previous Star Wars movies doesn't mean you have to in this one.
    chiasmus is a device for storytelling, it's not the story itself.

    but for the sake of argument: Ben's story should have been a reverse of Anakin's. Anakin died. Ben should have lived. the battle of the First and Final Order could have resulted in the defeat of the Final Order after an alliance with the Resistance (two factions united to fight a greater common enemy instead of fighting each other): it's inverse in the sense that the fate of the galaxy relies on the galaxy itself as a collective and not just on a spitting match between two powerful characters. and, in fact, there's your inverse of Luke ~ this is a movie that's touted as being about the "trio" and hope and family. would have been nice to see that trio and the family actually working/fighting together instead of having pretty much the same final battle split as RotJ.
     
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  6. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Apparently JJ never wanted Snoke to be killed off, he wanted to use him as the big bad in IX. But this is another story.

    IMO there are several interesting plots to tell without using Palpatine.

    Just so, I'm thinking of Kylo who is trying to discover the powers of Vader and Snoke. He's looking everywhere and is burning resources of the FO like crazy to do so. Furthermore he's more interested in finding Rey than winning the war. Obsession is the key point here. In TLJ it was set up, that Kylo wants to destroy everything. "I'll destroy her and you and all of it." this wasn't touched on at all in TROS.

    Hux (and the FO council) doesn't like this obsession. In his opinion the FO should try to defeat the Resistance and bring order to the galaxy once and for all.

    This is enough conflict in regards of the FO. => Kylo is obsessed and Hux wants to take over. And to make a long story short, Hux will succeed by the help of the KOR. So, you see we have enough evil counterparts for Kylo. We don't need Palpatine.

    A betrayed Kylo would be especially awesome because he then lost everything. He lost the FO, but he can't go to Resistance. Who is left? Rey of course.

    Kylo's journey to find what he seeks should be the main focus of the story. But the 'twist' is that he's actually looking for a way to overcome Kylo Ren => to become Ben Solo again. Without knowing it himself.

    People think Palaptine was needed because without him Kylo can't be redeemed. But they don't realize that Kylo was redeemed without Palaptine in TROS. Palaptine had nothing to do with it.


    So, there are two main reasons why Palaptine was brought back:
    1) fanservice (especially for pleasing the fans who were lost because of TLJ)
    2) to allegedly tie together the whole saga

    Number 2) is one of the biggest problems of TROS, at least IMO. There was no need to tie the saga together. First they should have focused on tying together the ST.
     
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  7. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    JJ was an executive Producer on TLJ. He could've said no... but he didn't. Hell, he supposedly like the script so much he wished he directed it.
     
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  8. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    What else should he say? That he hated it? It's just business talk. I would assume JJ wouldn't care about Snoke after TFA because he wasn't supposed to direct IX.
     
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  9. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    He could've said nothing.
     
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  10. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    But he has to promote a movie. Saying nothing is bad marketing.
     
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  11. bferr1972

    bferr1972 Force Attuned

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    My thinking is that if it's Rey versus Kylo and Palpatine, Rey doesn't stand a chance. It takes an intervention from Leia, putting her thumb on the scale in Rey's favor. Now, with Rey and a redeemed Ben fighting together, the movie has some of that vigor of the Praetorian Guard battle from TLJ. And if Leia is going to be tipping the scale away from anyone, who better than Palpatine?
     
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  12. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    This. Suddenly the marketing for tros had shifted and it was all about tying all the 9 movies together, they were thinking too big (bringing back Palpatine for example) instead focusing on the ST with their new, superb characters and a new original story.
     
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  13. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    Palpatine (1000 years of Sith Lords in one) still not dead, never will be. Force Projections are dead. Palpatine is immortal and can only be weakened for periods of time.

    he can only be replaced by a powerful Darkside apprentice.
     
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  14. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Wrap up the ST in ep 9. Then drop a tease for a special ep 10 stand alone film to wrap EVERYTHING up.
     
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  15. Chairman Kaga

    Chairman Kaga Rebel Official

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    I'll be honest, even though it makes a certain sense to use Palpatine to tie all 9 movies together, I was disappointed. After TLJ I was looking forward to Rey and Ren realizing the true nature of the FOrce isn't wholly light or dark, but both sides in equal measure.

    Luke was trying to teach Rey that while the Jedi had a noble intent, their dogma led to their downfall. In Legends, the Sith who were redeemed realized their passion could coexist with the ability to Not Be Evil, and the Being Evil always led to ruin.

    Johnson's story SEEMED to be pointing to actual balance of the force, that both would accept they could exist as either light or dark force users but expand their consciousness to step outside the dogma and be force users, and not just Jedi or Sith. I liked that idea a lot. Instead we got basically a rehash of ROTJ, but one that made far less narrative sense.
     
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  16. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    Heck most of the actors are still here. They should rewrite and reshoot all 3 movies to clean this mess up. Star Wars is worth it and they could make some more billions on rewrite releases.
     
  17. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    To me, this is the wrong saga to ask that of. It's never been about something new.
    I remember as a kid reading Lucas and Kasdan both talking about how they were both fascinate with the thought of whether we can ever truly be free from the imprint of our parents upon us, or if we were stuck in the same moral cycle as them; bound to make the same moral decisions, and even if we choose differently, if we were ever really free from the cycle of those moral choices, or whether or not we're just swinging back and forth.
    The "sins of the father" motif was to them very much what this Saga's heart was.

    That cyclical trap of a sort of Hindu and Buddhist style karma, doomed to repeat the same patterns until you can fully break free from the pattern - not just choose the opposite, but fully break the cycle entirely, and only then reach nirvana - the bliss of permanent rest without reincarnation.

    So, to me, this was the main thing I was concerned with going into the ST. If it hadn't shown signs of hitting this same message and getting onto the same tangent, I would have stopped watching at TFA and never come back. I was pleased to see those same elements in TFA, and am very happy that they continued the Skywalker saga's ontological moral imperative all the way to the end.

    Actually, I can't speak for Lucas, but I can't help but think he wouldn't agree here since he is a real fan of pure cinema, and that is an art form where the form takes precedence over the content - the content serves the form, and the form is the message itself.
    It's why THX is the way it is, and it's one of my favorite films Lucas made - even over Star Wars in many respects.

    For the Skywalker saga to not have a chiastic form, again, I would have just walked out. Something that I've never done to a Star Wars film (even when I was bored watching Rogue One), so I'm glad that didn't happen, because I would have just walked out of the theater if I had walked in and TFA, a Skywalker saga episode, didn't have the chiastic form that has been there since ESB, and I can argue since ANH (though it's harder to paint that purely as chiasmus as I don't think Lucas had his chops fully fine tuned until after it due to the massive troubles involved on ANH and that he only got about 25% of what he wanted out of that film).

    Ben's story was the reverse. That he died isn't the same as not being a reverse.
    In the PT, Anakin died and Vader was born.
    Vader saved Luke, and Luke had to burn him to set his spirit free.

    In the ST Kylo died and Ben was reborn.
    Ben saved Rey, and was already at peace with death and his spirit was free, so he did not require a funeral pyre to be set free.

    Anakin's damnation was his passion. Ben's salvation was his passion.
    Anakin turned dark to try to bring life back to Padme and failed; haunted for ever by this failure.
    Ben turned to the light and brought Rey back to life; in happiness for the rest of his life by this success - short as it was.

    The Palpatine move was really nice because it brought Palpatine into the "sins of the Father" motif whereas before he was just sitting on the sideline of that thread - he became the outer gear to the Skywalker's inner gears, and ultimately lost, because Ben ended the cycle the only way that cycle can end - permanent death, and Rey killed her Palpatine by switching to being a Skywalker; choosing a different karma than she inherited.

    Luke didn't do that. "Like my father before me".

    In this respect, I agree with Abrams that Palpatine, when you look at things this way, ends up being kind of inevitable.
    The Skywalker saga is a three act play of struggling for freedom from the cycle of inheritance.

    Act one, the PT, is one where the cycle is born.
    Act two, the OT, is where the cycle is perpetuated and fought against, but not broken.
    Act three, the ST, is where the cycle is broken, stopped from continuing further.

    To me, this was brilliant and I will hold this as one of the great works of literary art for quite a while.

    This was never a story about Ben, to me.
    This was always a story about Palpatine and Skywalkers, and going in I was always trying to figure out how in the heck they were going to continue the inheritance issue without Palpatine, as the first two trilogies are defined by the relationship between Palpatine and Skywalker - that's its soap opera engine.
    Rey could be from whatever, but I really was hoping Palps to show up somewhere and tie this all together, and I couldn't figure out how Rey was going to be made to make sense. When Luke said, "You went straight to the dark", that's when I started wondering about the Palpatine angle as that would make everything click in the overall theme and arc of the soap opera play.

    I actually wanted something I knew we weren't going to get. I wanted both Ben and Rey to die after joining to save everyone from a threat they both realized was bigger than their disagreement at the last minute.
    Because that to me would be the perfect Greek tragedy ending that brings true karmic balance to the end - everyone dies; no rebirth possible. Inheritance ended.

    I got 95% of what I wanted. Ben and Rey both did die, and Rey, though she survived, was reborn as a Skywalker by choice; not by blood. Which metaphorically ends the cycle - she is not "Like her 'father' before her". No longer defined by her inheritance and free from it.

    That's actually a lot closer than I thought I was going to get, and a lot more brave than I expected because killing the Skywalkers is bold, and I love that, and it would have been more bold to kill Rey, but this is America and I'd be a fool to expect that they would end one of the most famous franchise stories in cinema history with every lead character and family dead. Again, we're America, so there has to be some thread of optimism at the end. Someone has to live.

    Reading through some of the more recent responses, I see that there are those who really didn't want this kind of story out of the sequel, and I'm sorry for that.
    But I'd be lying if I sympathized too much there, because while I'm sorry they didn't get what they wanted, I'm really thrilled beyond delight that I got what I had wanted and was hoping for.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #57 Jayson, Jan 2, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
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  18. Snazel

    Snazel Force Sensitive

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    There was a perfectly good villain established at the end of Episode 8, his name was Kylo Ren. Bringing the Emperor back felt more like a gimmick, like KISS bringing their make up and dragon boots back, despite the fact they are 60-something and balder than a tomato.
     
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  19. The Last Jorgny

    The Last Jorgny Rebel Official

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    I was actually expecting them to double down on "Supreme Leader Kylo Ren" as the main villain after they killed of Snoke. I thought killing Snoke in the middle chapter was a brilliant move because it could allow them to focus more on Kylo/Ben as a character in the last movie. I like TROS, but was initially dissapointed that they didn't go that route. The strength of Kylo Ren as a bad guy was always how conflicted and broken he is, compared to Vader. Maybe they had difficulties finding out how to use him as a main villian and redeem him in the same movie?
     
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  20. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    That was exactly what they have said was the issue; they needed a large enough, and personal enough threat to bounce Kylo and Rey against and unite all three trilogies in one pass.

    Kylo can't do that. He's going to be busy spiritually marrying Rey as he dies.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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