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Snokes Death Forced Abrams Hand for Palpatines Return in The Rise of Skywalker

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by SWNN Probe, Dec 30, 2019.

  1. Maximillian

    Maximillian Rebel General

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    well so its been a while, and what was supposed to be me writing a treatment turned into me writing a script. I am 50 pages into it. roughly, and man its taking a while but I can confirm that its compeltely possible to write a conclusion to all 9 films without palpatine or a new, never before seen villain. After I have done it I will try to condense it back into a treatment coz like, no one is gonna want to read a first draft of a fictional episode IX. for the record I do write a lot and have done some script stuff before both editing and amending for feature films and I did write a sci-fi films script for Hollywood that never went anywere, well not yet. so I have more than 0 experience.
     
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  2. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel General

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    I think the problem with having Kylo as the main villian is they had also constantly teased him being redeemed, they have also regularly portrayed him as weak, trying to set up a trilogy finally with a main villain who audiences thought was going to turn good, who we had already seen our main hero defeat without training would it would have been problematic to create jeopardy for the hero's in that scenario.
     
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  3. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    You’re not wrong from that point of view. The problem is that he’s the last surviving Skywalker and 7,8,9 is supposed to be a continuation of the Skywalker Saga. So from a narrative sense, the story veers way off the original purpose (1-6) if the Skywalker Saga ends with the last Skywalker being the villain who was defeated by Rey Nobody. That sounds like a story that should have been told that shouldn’t be called 7,8,9 and set years later.
     
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  4. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    Ben Solo was an antagonist for exactly one movie (and the director of said movie ultimately retconned that portrayal himself).
     
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  5. Snazel

    Snazel Rebel Official

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    Don't buy this, "Kylo would not have worked, they had to bring the Emperor back" argument too much. Yes we expected him to be redeemed in the final act, but that redemption would have been more prolific, if he become all the more powerful at the start of IX. We get a BRIEF glimpse of this at the very start of IX, but the time Kylo goes, "hey lots of cool ships, sure I'll let you be my new boss Palpy", the film (for me) takes a nose dive.

    Again, I am happy many of you love IX and defend it.

    List all 11 Star Wars films in the order you prefer them and you realize there are millions of variations to that list (around 39 million I think). So the chance lines up with each other's point of view is slim to none in most cases. Let's all remember that as we discuss these things. I may disagree with bringing Palpy back, you may think it was a brilliant stroke that ties all 9 films together. That's cool because that's precisely what these forums are for.

    But yeah, for me, Kylo was right there as an outstanding villain to use and they blinked and went for fan service and nostalgia instead.
     
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  6. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I agree with this to a certain extent.

    The "Rian ruined JJ's plans by killing off Snoke" crowd seem to really downplay Kylo's potential as a villain (as well as perhaps overestimate Snoke's).

    That being said, I think the same could be said of those who think Palpatine was necessary for IX.


    Personally, my take is that Palps wasn't necessary for IX. Even with Kylo going good, you could've had him facing off against Hux, the Knights of Ren more fully, or even Pryde.

    But, at least in my case, I found it kinda fun. Like sure, it's kinda dumb in some ways, and not all that well explained. But that's classic Palpatine, isn't it? Kinda like how that's Kiss? I dunno, maybe I'm a sucker for that kind of thing.
     
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  7. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    The Last Jedi establishes Kylo/Ben as the co-protagonist of the Sequel Trilogy alongside Rey, and The Rise of Skywalker very much builds on everything that TLJ established, so Palpatine was brought back for more than just "fan service and nostalgia".
     
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  8. Snazel

    Snazel Rebel Official

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    Disagree. Kylo owns the galaxy pretty much after TLJ and brilliantly executes a coup to do it.

    Within 10 minutes he's back to running "fetch" errands for a character his "hero" grandfather gave up his life to destroy. All so he can score a few more ships?

    Again, it's cool you dig the film, but the idea that Kylo could not be used that a bigger "heavy" had to be brought in doesn't strike me as accurate. This was a decision that was made late in 2017, which to me, puts more fuel onto this idea that the Emperor was a last minute, last ditched attempt at fan service. It certainly was never the plan from the start as some fans are now contending.

    Again your mileage may vary, but to my mind, Kylo was supremely more interesting to develop. He gets utterly neutered by the end of the film.
     
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  9. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    You're entitled to your opinion, but it's contradicted by things that we know to be true due to BtS information.
     
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  10. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I think that brings up a good question, though.

    What did Kylo want?

    It's a bit strange how the film portrays it, but I don't think at any point are we to believe that Kylo is actually after the Sith fleet. Instead, I think the fleet plays a far bigger part in the story of The Resistance (and by proxy, Pryde).

    Kylo is, I think, far more interested with taking down the newly revealed threat that is Palpatine.

    It just kinda works strangely in the film, because the fleet is supposed to be this prize for Kylo, and he seems to have little interest in it.

    Yet, I think it still works well with the character's portrayal- Kylo wasn't crazy about Star Killer Base, he was more focused on Luke than the Resistance on Crait, and he now is more focused on eliminating Palpatine than he is with the fleet on Exegol.

    And even though the escalation of tech terrors gets kinda tiresome, I think it works well for the finale. Poe says something to the effect of "So this is how it ends" when the planet killing fleet is revealed, and that stuck with me. Star Wars began with the Death Star, a weapon capable of the heinous crime of destroying a planet. It now ends with an entire fleet capable of destroying every planet in the galaxy that shows signs of disloyalty. Even with their already overwhelming advantage in numbers and resources, this is a boon that the First Order would love to have access to, outside of Kylo Ren's own aims.
     
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  11. Snazel

    Snazel Rebel Official

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    Like what exactly? We already have JJ conceding the Emperor was an after-thought, a plot twist conceived late 2017. We also know that Rian staged Kylo to be the ruler of the galaxy by end of Episode 8 (he's the Supreme Leader after all). So I am not sure you can say that JJ "had to" bring in the Emperor nor can you say that "Kylo would not have worked at a villain". (Note I'm using the quotes to paraphrase).

    Again, these things come down to taste and subjective appreciation of art, but to my mind, Kylo was already there, sitting there ready to be used as your central antagonist after Episode 8, but they went for some fan-service and nostalgia instead. Which is kind of JJ's modus operandi, truth be told, this is the guy who inserts lots of meta-moments into his films.

    See the moment Khan mugs the camera to say his name in Star Trek II, a moment that has no meaning at all for the characters on screen, but registers deeply with fans. Chewbacca suddenly being awarded the medal in IX is another example.

    So knowing this is JJ's modus operandi, why is it such a sacrilege to say bring Palpy back was fan service? Nostalgia and fan service is JJ's bread and butter, not just in Star Wars, but in Star Trek, Mission Impossible, heck even 8mm.

    You may LIKE Emperor being back, just not sure I can see the argument that he HAD to come back, that he was always planned to have come back nor can I see the argument that there is no way Kylo would have been an effective villain.
     
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  12. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Which is why my argument is, if you want to bring him back, just make a special ep10 that is actually there to wrap up the saga and just let ep9 wrap up the ST with Rey and Kylo. Then you can actually build him up in 9 as a potential threat, or whatever.
     
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  13. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    1) Numerous people have confirmed that the idea of bringing back Palpatine had been a topic of discussion, offhandedly, since the beginning of development on the Sequel Trilogy as a whole, so you're wrong when you say that it was a "last-minute decision"

    2) Ben being a villain stopped being a viable narrative direction the moment that Rian Johnson submitted his final draft of The Last Jedi; his decision to kill Snoke and his ascension to the role of Supreme Leader was an ascending step on his journey as a protagonist, not as an antagonist, and Rian made no secret of that fact

    3) The fact that there is very much a narrative reason - and one that predates the Sequel Trilogy - underpinning Palpatine's return - which, again, has been confirmed to have been a topic of offhanded discussion since 2012 - disproves the cudgel -like accusation that it was only done in the interest of "can service" and "nostalgia"
     
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  14. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I don't know at what point they decided that this trilogy was going to be the end of the Skywalker saga. Not sure if it became the end of the Skywalker Saga as a result of the decision to return Palpatine, or that the PR disaster following TLJ prompted them to declare the end, and in the absence of Snoke, felt the best way to wrap up and begin the Fan Service Campaign was to bring Palpatine back and make her Rey's grandfather.

    I have made no secret that I was NOT in favor of the return of Palpatine. I do believe that killing Snoke did hamstring the story that JJ tried to tell. I would say though, if you could bring back Palpatine, I don't see why you couldn't bring back Snoke.
     
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  15. Adam812

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    I always figured that they made this the end saga for the sake of numerical poetry. We now have a trilogy of trilogies.
    I’m happy with that. Now we can move on to completely new kinds of stories. Love or hate the sequel trilogy, you can still look forward to fresh material now that the Skywalker stuff has been wrapped up.
     
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  16. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I guess I don't see what precluded them for telling other stories (whether they tied off the Skywalker Saga or not). I assume it was a marketing decision rather than some unavoidable chain of events in galaxy that coupled Luke, Leia, and Han's story with Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo. The new characters could have done just fine with no link to the OT whatsoever, arguably they could have been even better (since it would have sunk a lot of fan theories and shipping before they got out of port)
     
  17. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

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    Yeah have to say I honestly thought from the very beginning Kylo was going to kill Snoke. I expected it in TFA. I thought that he would have second thoughts before the end but honestly I thought he was and would remain the real BBEG of the trilogy. I think they brought back Palps because so many people objected to Kylo as the BBEG whether they wanted Reylo, or hated the temper tantrums, or just didn't see the unstable mess that Kylo was as a real villain.
     
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  18. SuperBenKenobi1992

    SuperBenKenobi1992 Rebelscum

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    I understand what you mean by this but tend to disagree. I was talking about Palpatine's return with my buddy the other day and i told him that i actually thought Palpatine was a necessary inclusion in the Sequel trilogy. it comes own to story writing. When you look at the Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter, even TV shows like Smallville, they all have a central goal that is achieved or conflict that must be stopped. in the case of Harry Potter its about protecting the world for the evils of Voldemort, in Smallville it was about Clark Kent's journey to becoming Superman. When it comes to Star Wars the central conflict of the first VI films was Palpatine. Before Palpatine can be considered superfluous to the sequel trilogy we have to understand that the sequel trilogy itself is superfluous without Palpatine. What I mean by this is that for all intense and purposes the Story was finished with Palpatine's demise at the hands of Darth Vader with the destruction of the second Death Star. Both which lead to the swift downfall of the Galactic Empire. Because of the way Return of the Jedi ends we don't need VII-IX. Unless of course Palpatine never died.

    If you were to break down the first two trilogies it would function as follows

    Episode I-III
    Anakin Skywalker, The Chosen One, is discovered by the Jedi and trained in the ways of the force. he is instructed down the path to bring balance in the force. However a cloud of darkness clouds the jedi and in their hubris they push the chosen one away, toward their Phantom Menace. The Phantom Menace who is revealed to be Chancellor Palpatine a trusted friend of Anakin. During the Clone Wars He leads Anakin away from his destiny and uses him as the sharp weapon that annihilates the Jedi order. From the ashes of the Clone Wars rises a new political power with the dark side at its help, The Galactic Empire.

    Episode IV-VI
    Luke Skywalker, a simple farm boy that intercepts a message from Leia Organa Princess of Alderaan is thrust a journey that leads him to discover the truth of his family. How his father is the evil right had of Emperor Palpatine, Darth Vader (Anakin skywalker), and his sister is the Princess of Alderaan. He learns of their strength in the force, learns from the Last of the Jedi, Master Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Master Yoda. And how he met his destiny by confronting his father and saves him from the dark side. together they overthrow the emperor and bring balance to the force, at the cost of Anakin's Life

    going into Episode VII we should have been introduced into a world of peace, balance and prosperity. This balance is upset by The Phantom Menace. a looming threat of the possible return of the Emperor. This begins with the fall of Ben Solo the son of Han Solo and Leia Organa and student to Luke Skywalker. He will struggle between the light and dark during this first film and be seduced by the end of it. He would follow Snoke towards the dark side. Snoke would be a servant of Palpatine whom would be teaching Ben through Snoke. it would be revealed at some point threw the trilogy that Palpatine wants use Ben to be revived. I have a little bit of head canon that Palatines goal with Anakin and then Luke was ultimately the same that at some point he was going to transfer his essence into Anakin and continue living on in Anakins body, and when anakin failed to be a suitable replacement he fixed his sights on Luke. Now he looks to Ben's fresh body for return and then wants vengeance on Luke (you could take it a step further and have a revelation that this whole time Palpatine has been Darth Bane and that is why Darth Bane set up the rule of two. remove threat of the sith train a student in the dark side and when they decide its time to usurp the throne he takes their body, waiting in silence for the right to time to strike at the other threat, the jedi. he'd take them out and become supreme ruler of the galaxy. after which he would be able to keep training apprentices and live on forever as the emperor, appointing his apprentice as the emperor just before taking there body.). In order for this to happen Ben must be fully consumed by the dark side. Enter Luke and Rey whom in this version of the trilogy would be the twin sister of Ben and the hero of our story. She would follow in Luke's footsteps and bring her brother back to the light. the final lightsaber dual being a clash of saber between the two on the brink of palatine returning using Ben's body. She would succeed and together they would finish what Anakin started and end Palpatine once for all by preventing his return. the final film could have been titled RISE OF THE PHANTOM instead to hearken back to the tile of the first episode

    This is why I actually agree with palatines return in Rise though. Because Rise essentially (albeit in an incomplete and messy way, mainly due to the nature of how these movies were written) fulfills this story. It is the Grandson of Vader and The Granddaughter of Palpatine working together to prevent his return. it caps the story and it doesn't undo what Anakin did in Return of the Jedi. The main problem is it should have been more evident during the entire trilogy. because now what we have is a disjointed trilogy where the films don't fully make sense at all points with one another. which is actually the main problem with the trilogy as a whole. It wasn't one vision from start to finish.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 19, 2020 at 10:01 AM, Original Post Date: Jan 19, 2020 at 9:53 AM ---
    Before rise came out i often said that the sequel trilogy functions better without Skywalkers. The problem is they needed not market it as the continuation of the Skywalker Saga then. Im all for brand new fresh stories that have nothing to do with the Skywalkers. but if you or going to market a new trilogy to be a part of the Skywalker Saga then make it that. I don't honestly have a desire one way or the other, I could take a million more Skywalker Saga films or some fresh stuff free from Skywalker influence. I just want the stories to be good and fit with what they continuing if they are continuing a story.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 19, 2020 at 10:05 AM ---
    The problem with adding and ep 10 is that it removes the symmetry, rhyme and rhythm of three trilogies so i completely understand them stopping at ep 9
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 19, 2020 at 10:11 AM ---
    \

    I'd be interested to read it. I tend to be in the camp the Palptine's return was necessary for the trilogy im interested to see what you came up with. I'd also like to note that to some degree we will all have differing opinions on what should and shouldn't be the case for the sequel trilogy based on how we are looking at what the product is and how much what we would like to see influences that perspective.
     
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  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    1. It is sloppy and incomplete because it was unnecessary and done as fan service in the worst way. You go into great detail on head canon. Which is the problem. It isn't explained or made to actually fit. It just is because JJ wanted it. That's not good.

    2. F the symmetry and rhyme when it makes for a worse story. That's bad story telling when you put that above the actual story. A good story should always come before that stuff.
     
  20. SuperBenKenobi1992

    SuperBenKenobi1992 Rebelscum

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    I actually think that the core issue these days is that nobody can seem to agree on what is good writing or a good story. I completely disagree with but i see the validity in your point. Two completley differemt stories could actually be equally great but if it doesnt resont with you as the viewer or its not what you wanted to haoped you will likely take issue with it. Star Wars has larfely been divides down the middle particularly with these laat two films. I think it is honestly short sides to claim something as bas sriting because you think it to be fan service. Its not fair and purely an implication of the writer thought process. But hey to each there own
     
    #80 SuperBenKenobi1992, Jan 19, 2020 at 7:55 PM
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020 at 8:45 PM
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