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Snoke's plan...

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by ITG, May 30, 2016.

  1. GingerByte

    GingerByte Guest

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    Sidious didn't fight her with ease. He bested her when she possessed Dooku, as she had none of his skill with a lightsaber, but she was able to deflect both Palpatine and Dooku's lightning with relative ease when she regained her corporeal form. She sacrificed herself to save her son Maul, remember. Windu was having a hard time fighting her in season six of The Clone Wars, and she was only 'killed' when they used her own 'soul harvester' against her.

    It's a little hard to learn from your mistakes, when the very man you're fighting can see into the future :p.
     
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  2. Rieekan

    Rieekan SWNN Hawkeye
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    Well, she was beaten multiple times ok. The Emperor wasn't that good at his foreseeing things. I bet he didn't see Vader coming.;)
     
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  3. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I think one of the errors for this trilogy was in making the FO a repeat of the Empire. I'd personally have liked to have seen a group lead by Snoke that resembled today's terrorists that sought to destroy democracy.

    Anyway, I think the ideas about Force witches etc should just be left to the stuff outside the movies. I don't think it fits into the saga and it is shown quite clearly how the Sith were the pinnacle of the dark side and that no other group of dark side wielders matched up to them. So Snoke has to be both beyond these cults and the Sith in some way.

    One word about Luke and why Snoke should fear him is that Luke is the son of the Chosen One. The One who brought balance (unexpectedly for both the Sith and Snoke it would seem) and Luke has the power to do what his father did. He should rightly be feared by those on the Dark Side. He has had thirty years to learn the Jedi ways and with his potential has likely become one of the most powerful force wielders of all time.

    Back to Snoke - some speculate that Snoke uses both the light and dark side. That he is attempting to cultivate both sides in Kylo Ren. I don't buy that for a second. He is a dark sider. You can't be a master of both light and dark. To master the dark requires anger, aggression, hatred, selfishness. To master the light requires compassion, selflessness and love. You have to choose which side. This is why those that are on the path and dabble between the two, such as Kylo Ren and TESB Luke, pale in comparison in a battle against those who have mastered the light or dark. The fact that Kylo Ren was surprised to find that killing his father weakened him rather than empowered him shows his conflict. It shows that there is light in him and that he hasn't gone over to the Dark Side. There could be something in the idea that Snoke wants this so Kylo can't ever be his rival but it certainly isn't Snoke's philosophy in regard to his own power. Snoke is a Dark Side through and through and I would bet 1000 Republic Credits that he relies on the Dark Side to survive.

    However, this isn't to say that Snoke doesn't use the light. I don't mean that he physically uses the light side but rather manipulates it or those that do use it for his own means - he Starkiller Base being a perfect metaphor for this - he pulls in the light and uses it as a weapon on itself. I think this relates back to what I was originally saying about causing an endless war. When the galaxy is in a state of war, the Dark Side is strongest. "Evil is everywhere" as it says in the crawl of ROTS. And when there are dark forces attacking the galaxy, then the light must rise up and fight back - thus be at war. And then even the light is adding to the darkness - it must win before the darkness drowns out the light. This is where the Sith failed. The light in Vader wasn't extinguished and he was able to destroy the Sith. Snoke wants to, at ALL COST, destroy the only person who can stop the Dark Side again - Luke Skywalker. Once Snoke has done that he could likely keep the galaxy in a state of perpetual war or reign over it with evil as the Empire did. Either way, without Luke in the picture, darkness wins.

    Where as Palpatine simply used the Dark Side to try and conquer and reign over the Galaxy, Snoke is first seeking to conquer the Dark and Light side itself - manipulate them and those that use them to ensure the domination of the dark and thus his own eternal and unlimited power. Sidious was massively overconfident - seeing Yoda's survival as irrelevant. Not going after Kenobi properly. Thinking he had utter control over Vader. Thinking his Imperial forces faced no real opposition. Snoke isn't making that mistake. He has observed events for a long time and is now manipulating people into ensuring that the dark side cannot be stopped. He's likely never been that interested in ruling the galaxy as we know he has been around yet never made a move. He was happy for the Sith to rule (and take on the risks of that) as long as the Dark Side remained dominant. This in turn empowered Snoke. But when the Sith fell and the force balanced once more, Snoke had to act and bring himself into the light - and that is his vulnerability. He is clearly physically quite weak and vulnerable. He never wanted to make himself known to those that could destroy him. But alas he had no choice. All the main dark side players were erased by Anakin.
     
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  4. GingerByte

    GingerByte Guest

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    Yes, you cannot belong to both sides. This was shown in The Clone Wars when Darth Maul noted that Obi-Wan was becoming unbalanced and weak, because of his rage whilst using the light side.
     
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  5. Fuzzball

    Fuzzball Force Sensitive

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    If that's the case, and Snoke was a perfect-being beforehand, then why did he hide in the shadows pre-ROTJ if Snoke was at full power? Why would Snoke be comfortable with Sidious controlling his fate? Snoke had 20 years to challenge Sidious, when the dark side was in full bloom and he was at full strength, but he just sat back and allowed himself to eventually get ****ed up without any intervention? That either means Snoke was always a coward or has always been weaker than the main players and will never live up to them.

    I prefer Snoke injuries/wounds preceding Sidious becoming the Emperor. That way, Snoke has a reason for not challenging Sidious or the Jedi outright whilst retaining some dignity as an aspiring dictator.

    Definitely. However, Kylo's viewpoint on the galaxy (likely influenced by a lecture from Snoke) is very Sith/Vader-like.

    "It is the task of the First Order to remove the disorder from our own existence, so that civilization may be returned to the stability that promotes progress. A stability that existed under the Empire, was reduced to anarchy by the Rebellion, was inherited in turn by the so-called Republic, and will be restored by us. Future historians will look upon this as the time when a strong hand brought the rule of law back to civilization."
    Either this is part of Snoke's plan or he is stringing Kylo along. I believe it's part of his plan and he wants to subjugate the galaxy under the control of a stronger leader. I don't think he wants an endless war, but certainly until the Republic and the Jedi are eradicated.

    And come on people, we all know what Snoke's next plan is - Starkiller Base II.
     
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  6. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    That's the big question.
    My original view was that Snoke was/is Plagueis and his injuries (of which he was still healing from) meant that he couldn't physically take on Palpatine at that point and that he required the strength of the Dark Side which was empowered by the Sith Empire to survive. Now, it could simply be that this remains the case, without him being Plagueis and that this is why he took a backseat. It seems clear to me that Snoke is vulnerable. We have been told this and it's apparent in TFA. So the reasoning remains the same - he is very powerful but vulnerable and this is why he was content to let Sidious do his thing.

    It all depends on how old Snoke is and how he got these injuries. The fact is, if he predates Sidious then he has at some point failed in taking over the galaxy and has had his butt handed to him by someone. At least in making him Plagueis he could've been defeated by Sidious himself (maintaining the strength of his character) but then allowing him [Snoke] to become something else. Eitherway, it doesn't really matter. Snoke IS vulnerable. Snoke IS physically damaged. But he must've been healthy at some point. And this is what is important. Why didn't he strike when he was at full power before? If he has had nothing to do with Sidious then he must be ancient and was defeated long ago. Or he is someone like Plagueis. Eitherway, he didn't mount a challenge vs Sidious in a time period leading up to ROTJ because he is vulnerable.


    This might well be the case. We know for instance, that an Empire doesn't really bring peace to the galaxy but keeps the Force out of balance (as the people are oppressed and living in fear). Sounds to me like Kylo Ren is falling for/using the same justifications as Vader did for the Empire. Long term, you're probably right, a new Dark Side Empire would suit Snoke. There isn't really anything to suggest otherwise. But right now, the only real objective is to destroy Luke/The Jedi. That's where Sidious failed. He created his Empire and ignored the threat of the Jedi. Snoke is going after Luke at all costs first, even risking his Superweapon. Causing a new galactic wide war on top of this (bringing utter chaos) is a sure way of empowering the dark side and spreading evil everywhere.

    So yeah, I think I would probably take back the idea of an eternal war in the truest sense of the word. But I do think that Snoke favours whatever keeps the Dark Side strong (and the Jedi dead) over how best to maintain his Empire/FO. Simply, the top priority is destroying Luke and ensuring the Dark Side dominates forever.

    Just a side note - considering what we saw in Rebels with the weapon on Malachor and now the talk of something ancient on Jakku, I am wondering whether Snoke felt he could sacrifice SK Base anyway as other planets provide similar opportunities for super weapons? You say, "Starkiller Base II", I say "Starkiller Bases II-X..."
     
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  7. oldbert

    oldbert Guardian of Coffee Breaks

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    No more plans from the old man huhh? :D
     
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  8. Jack_Forest

    Jack_Forest Force Sensitive

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    Snoke... That's a name I haven't heard in a long time.
     
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  9. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend
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    But you will, when he's back in IX (pwned)
     
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  10. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    I wish that.

    I think he maybe will appears in a flashback scene. But this time with a red robe.
     
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  11. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend
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    Or with a purple saber
     
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  12. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    I don't see Snoke wielding a saber.

    Snoke (and Palpatine in the OT) are to powerfull and arrogant for that, they prefer to use lightining.
     
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  13. Fuzzball

    Fuzzball Force Sensitive

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    Since you revived an old thread that's been dead for over two years @oldbert, is it possible you could use your great sorcery to revive the old man Snoke as well?

    I'm asking for a friend.

    [​IMG]


    I also have to say reading this thread back, well done to you, @NinjaRen and @FN-3263827 for your on-point Snoke predictions. I should've known he was a goner too. Well played, you guys!
    [​IMG]


    On the other hand, the Snoke predictions of myself and @master_shaitan weren't so on-point. :oops:

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. oldbert

    oldbert Guardian of Coffee Breaks

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    I don't know @Fuzzball if Snoke is the right one for a comeback as he doesn't seem to be the ideal candidate for a Force Ghost (thinking of Yodas odessey during the last episodes of Clone Wars) and I cannot see any other return that really makes sense for IX.
    I am afraid I am not able to provide that extra amount of sorcery that would be required here :)
     
    #54 oldbert, Nov 6, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2018
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  15. Fuzzball

    Fuzzball Force Sensitive

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    Help me, @oldbert, you're my only hope. :(

    If you can't save him, it's going to break little Fuzzball Jr.'s heart

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. oldbert

    oldbert Guardian of Coffee Breaks

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    Awww. A mixture of Garfield and Chewie :)
    I am sorry. I am better in switching of tractor beams on Death Stars (or SKB II ?) :D
     
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  17. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    'Come on Plagueis ol' buddy, don't let me down!'
     
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  18. Fuzzball

    Fuzzball Force Sensitive

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    Hang in there @master_shaitan!

    [​IMG]

    Whilst you're here, I've got some speculation for you (because I know how much you like speculating)... :D

    I don't know if you're aware of the ongoing Vader series by Marvel Comics, but it was revealed in the most recent issues that Vader built his castle on top of an ancient Sith cave so he could resurrect Padme from death.

    He designed and built Fortress Vader with the help of a dead Sith brought back to life named Momin. Momin was able to preserve his consciousness within his mask for centuries after he died, but Vader granted him a physical body to possess so he could aid him in building his castle. Basically, Momin had achieved a form of immortality.

    [​IMG]

    Whether Vader is successful in "saving Padme from death" is yet to be concluded (at least in terms of the comic series), but it made me think about Snoke's connection to all this.

    Strangely, Snoke's ring was made out of obsidian from Vader's castle, and was also inscribed with glyphs of the Dwartii—connections to Vader and Sidious respectively.

    Snoke's fascination with Vader seems to border almost on obsession (dare I say he could be a bigger Vader fanboy than Kylo).

    Did Snoke possibly seek to harness that power from the Force locus in some way?

    I still believe Snoke has some deeper connection to Vader and Sidious that we haven't learnt about yet. I'm not saying that it will have anything to do with Ep IX, but who knows what plans Snoke would've had if Vader had still lived?

    With Snoke now, it's not a case of what his next plans are, but what his plans actually were in the first place.
     
    #58 Fuzzball, Nov 7, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
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  19. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    More interestingly still, the Dwartii are mentioned in the Darth Plagueis novel and Palpatine kept bronzium statues of the four Dwartii Sages (as seen in his office) - which by the way, originally belonged to Darth Plagueis...
     
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  20. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend
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    One ring to find them...
    ... That's why they need a hobbit in IX to sneak into Mordor Mustafar and destroy the ring in the fire where it was made.
     
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