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So how will they use old footage of Carrie Fisher

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by KeithF1138, Aug 6, 2018.

  1. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel General

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    You're right about TLJ - I don't know how I forgot that!

    I did say episodes 1-8, so I wasn't including Rogue One. Also, you could argue that a dream is different from a flashback.
     
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  2. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    What does this have to do with how will they use old footage in Ep9?
     
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  3. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Excellent question. It will probably be as much CGI as real (if not moreso). But they know CGI'ing her would be an unpopular thing to do, so they are going to promote the "we are using old footage" aspect and hide the extent to which they use the CGI.

    In my opinion, this is a wise move. I like the fact that they will be able to maintain the integrity of the storyline.
     
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  4. Adam812

    Adam812 Rebel General

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    It could all be Finn's dream when he is in his coma.
     
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  5. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    If someone needs to see a film that handles the angle of a dead mother pretty well, you should go and see Mamma Mia: Here We Go Again! This film is all about honouring the character of dead mother and how her lives affected all the people around her. If that's the way they'll go with Leia in IX, I'd be more than happy.

    PS. If this would involve also a scene with Carrie Fisher singing some heartfelt message at the end of the film a puddle of tears would be guaranteed.
     
    #25 Pawek_13, Aug 10, 2018
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  6. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    I'm still wagering force ghost. Did I already say that in this thread? At first I was thinking, only a force ghost at the end of the film, but now it seems they're saying they're using multiple instances of footage so I'm wagering Leia will have died between VIII and IX but will have a role as a force ghost during the events of IX. Probably appearing to Rey, maybe Kylo. Also at the end of the movie. Maybe that's the first time we'll see Ben Solo smile in this series.

    VIII established that Leia knows some force abilities, presumabley taught by Luke. Luke knew the force ghost ability since he went force ghost at the end. It's simple enough to have Leia been taught that by Luke sometime prior. Also force ghost Leia would be way easy to put into a scene with the rotoscoping force ghost effect able to cover any otherwise telling signs. It all seems the most natural and easy way to go about this.

    But if it's actually Leia in the story, still alive? I'm interested to see what they're planning. Pulling that off would be quite the feat.
     
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  7. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Leia isn't able to become a force ghost, because she's no Jedi. Btw we haven't seen Luke go force ghost yet...

    I would hate seeing Leia as a force ghost. Only the best trained force users should be able to do this.
     
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  8. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    I'm not sure why that would follow. Force sensitive people use the force all of the time before becoming Jedi. Anakin was using the force as a kid, so is broom boy. Luke, Leia and Rey all use the force; Luke and Rey both before they are Jedi. Leia uses the force and isn't a Jedi. Doesn't seem you have to be a Jedi in order to use a force ability. All you need is the belief and maybe some teaching to refine it helps.

    That's true but he did disappear at the end of VIII. The only characters that have just, vanished like that, are Jedi who become force ghosts. Otherwise why would Luke vanish in the same manner as Kenobi and Yoda?

    I wouldn't mind it at all. It's already shown she can use the force and her brother is a teacher who knows how to do it. Apparently. Unless his vanishing was something completely different than Yoda's. But I'm not seeing any reason to suspect it was something different. Looks like he pulled a Yoda to me. I'm willing to wager the greater audience would have no problem with it. I wouldn't even think twice about it if Han showed up as a force ghost at the end of the movie, along with Luke and Leia. I'd wager most wouldn't care, because of the rule of cool* - if something fits a narrative theme to provide a cool moment, the rules can go hang. Besides, the "rules of force ghosting" seem generally non-existent as it is so there's not much there to even be concerned about.

    *https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool
     
    #28 metadude, Aug 10, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
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  9. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Well, nobody taught Anakin to do it. According to George in the ROTJ commentary, it was Obi and Yoda that gave him a boost. So . . . plausible, I guess. I’d still rather not see it though. Just keep it simple and stick with the one ghost that was already hinted at.
     
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  10. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    Yeah but "keep it simple" is pretty much what I'm saying. The simplest way to deal with Carrie Fisher as Leia would be as a force ghost with a few poignant appearences. True that nobody taught Anakin how to do it, but like I said, the "rules of force ghosting" are pretty much, unruled as it is. Who taught Kenobi and Yoda? Qui-Gon? Who taught him? Who taught that person? In the end, to me, the answer is, who cares, just do what the story wants and don't worry about having everything about the force explained in minutae. This is how we got midichlorians, you know?

    Also, the point of TLJ was that the force doesn't "belong" to the Jedi. It dovetails into the situation perfectly. Especially after showing Leia using the force in VIII. I guess maybe you could throw in a line or something that would explain it all to placate the staunchly pedantic: these appearences occur near a force tree, oh that's the explaination. That object is a nexus that's the ticket. Love works in mysterious ways, that's it. Or, if it were me, I drop the line "It's the will of the force" let's see the extreme rules-lawyers rebut that one.

    On top of all this, who wouldn't want to see Luke, Leia and, yes, Han together at the end of the movie, smiling in an echo of RotJ. It would restore what some people thought was lost. Toss Lando in the end scene (still alive) smiling at the celebration and there you go. Anyone who would complain about that, is heartless. And doesn't understand the role of poignancy in storytelling.

    But kidding aside, I'm sure that the writers would handle it in a way that even "I would hate to see it" would walk out of the theater with a changed mind. Unless they're heartless. Then they're going to hate everything anyway, so, Kobayashi Maru.

    But, like I said, maybe the do keep Leia still alive at the beginning of IX and use the footage in a way in which she's still alive. If so, that's going to be, interesting. I would much rather see force ghost Leia, than alive Leia in a bit-part couple of scenes only to die offscreen midmovie. That seems a strange choice to me, at least initially. I just can't imagine how they'd do this. I guess we'll find out if it's to be that way.
     
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  11. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel General

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    Let's just hope it isn't like this. :)

     
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  12. Angelman

    Angelman Jedi General

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    I do not believe we'll see Leia as a Force Ghost, at least not prominently. She'll appear, I think, in politicking scenes from TFA (i.e. her trying to convince the New Republic that the First Order is a very bad bunch), reconceptualized and tweaked to fit the Ep.IX narrative. This should, with some attentive writing, be quite easy to pull off :)
     
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  13. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    I was really speaking more to the scripting process rather than production. I mean, the simplest solution, from a technical perspective, would be to not have her in there at all. Presumably, something in the narrative required Leia be present and they aren’t just throwing her in there just to be in there.
    Agreed, which is precisely what I’m speaking to. The idea of a ‘spectral Leia’ starts at the destination, with a concept, and then requires you work backward to find a way for the story to accommodate it. I just don’t see the point on its surface.
    The issue is really more about characterization than anything else. Leia, although being a Force user, is not associated with the Force in a traditional sense. She represents the political aspect of the plot. She has had moments of intuition and a near death experience that coaxed an impressive display of ability, but having her serve as a pseudo-psychopomp wouldn’t be in keeping with her character and established role in the saga. It’s just not her thing the same way it is Luke’s. It would be strange for that to be her principle contribution in the story.
    Hell, why stop there? Why not cap this nine part shebang off with a group selfie of Luke, Leia, Han, Anakin, Padme, Shmi, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace and whoever else? All cheesing at the camera right before it irises out for the last time? Honestly, I wouldn’t be angry at this. But a modest apparition is drastically different than a functional role in the story.
    I’m not saying “No, never! It would be a betrayal!” or whatever. Just that it wouldn’t make much sense for the character.
    Or they don’t kill her off at all. Leia lives on in the universe ‘til some indeterminate time. That would be fine too, I think.
    "AH, MY EYES, THE GOGGLES DO NOTHING!!"
     
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  14. Boushhdisguise

    Boushhdisguise Jedi General

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    They can manipulate dialogue using her voice. Much like they did for Alec Guiness in TFA. Body double if need be from the back. I'm sure they will make it work. I love the idea of Leia still being alive in IX.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 12, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 12, 2018 ---
    Dream? on the surface that doesn't seem appealing at all.
     
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  15. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    If they do use CGI, they would most likely either use it for DI (color correction) or to re-insert her digitally into other scenes like what they did in the prequels when certain actors weren't available at the time and just shoot them on a blue-green screen and insert them directly back into a shot seamlessly later .
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 12, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 12, 2018 ---
    She COULD be a force ghost but it is something that is learned to heavy jedi training and teachings, which is something she never received as far as we know...and I do not believe that Luke truly died unless it is set in stone by something in the canon moving forward
     
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  16. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    I agree with you here. It seems relatively clear that JJ had something in mind that requires Leia. Something that can't really be re-written. The only thing I can think of is that they already knew they wanted Leia as a force ghost, at least along with Luke (if not even Han) at the very end of the story. To me, the idea of the force ghosts at the end of RotJ was to convey that basic idea that, the past is still there in spirit. In this trilogy, that's Luke, Leia and Han. I can see JJ et al saying, we really need Leia's force ghost at the end like we planned, it just won't be the same otherwise, and we just can't rewrite it. So they opt for the unused footage. Another one or two scenes prior would dovetail into it alleviating any possible jarring of just that one scene.

    I can't imagine anything else that would require using unused footage. I can't imagine anything that JJ would think, I've simply got to keep Leia live in this movie, who else will do such and such without Leia being alive? But, force ghost? That's another story. That makes sense to be something that would put him in the situation of necessity of using the footage.

    Because force ghosts at the end aren't really about "Who has the force" it is more about saying "the past will always be with you in spirit". It's about the audience receving that visual cue that Luke, Leia and Han aren't "dead" but will always be a part of the spirit of the story. The generation that passes the baton, lives on in spirit with the next generation.

    Bear in mind that any use of unused previous Leia footage will have to be written around. That makes a difficult problem of backward engineering for any use. To me, again, the reason for jumping through these hurdles would have to be something absolutely necessary. I presume you would agree that, for sake of argument, if JJ et all originally intended for Leia to appear as a force ghost at the end of IX, allowing Ben Solo to see her, then that ending wouldn't suffice without her, and to maintain that ending, something would have to be done; of the calibre of, repurposing unused footage.

    I can't think of anything else that would call for that. It's possible that that's what will happen, sure. But the logistics of Leia being alive and running around in IX is such a tremendous feat that I can't fathom why JJ would bring that upon himself.

    Again it would really not be about Leia's characterization, it would be about the idea that the ones who came before live on in spirit. It's the basic desire of human being to know that the people that helped them and have passed on, aren't really dead. Why did the force ghosts appear at the end of RotJ?

    I honestly wouldn't mind that, but Luke, Leia and Han are the only ones really involved with the story here, and of special relevance to Ben Solo. Those three characters caused audience reaction to their deaths. It would bring catharsis to the ordeal, along with that for Ben. Think about the ending for Ben if he never sees his father again, or his mother, and we end the story. Now think about him seeing Luke, then Leia and Han appear and they smile at him. Two very difference conclusions, one without catharsis, one with it.

    Sure; could be. But if Leia lives, then surely she's in the end scene? Surely she's there and greets Ben? Or Rey? Thin about how difficult that would be to pull off in a film with repurposed footage. Unimaginably difficult. Unless we don't even have Leia in the end scene celebration which itself would be a thousand times more bizzare than any force ghost would ever be.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 12, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 12, 2018 ---
    Bear in mind that when you say "something that is learned-heavy Jedi training teachings" I don't know that is true. Remember all of the EU is gone. Where do you get these "rules" and how certain are you they can't be ignored as, not true? If we just go by the movies, we really have no idea who can be a force ghost or, why it even happens. I recall I think Clone Wars, Qui-Gon said something about it being about love. Love provided the impetus. And that's not even in the movies. I really dount the general audience would question anything at all about either Han or Leia appearing, and would in fact be comforted by it, and gain catharsis from it, right along with Ben.

    Also, I alluded to the "rule of cool" above and the ramifications of it, and even though this wouldn't specifically fall into that category the idea is the same. I don't doubt for a second that if the writer's wanted Leia and even Han to appear as force ghosts to provide what they thought was the "truest" ending to their story, they would do it without hesitation because what serves the story outweighs any "rules". Sure, this might cause the most pedantic of fans to cry out "foul!" but that small fraction being disgruntled would be insignificant to the integrity of the story itself being maintained. If the writers feel this is where the story wants to go, that is where it will go.
     
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  17. Rellum

    Rellum Rebelscum

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    They don't need to go full CGI on any new wardrobe, they can just get a plate of a double wearing the new threads and comp them in. But if you are not spending money in a studio film you are not doing it right so they will probably go full CG apart from whatever we can see of Carrie.

    Yes they can alter dialogue as long as it is not too different and of course that can always use a double for reverse over the shoulder shots(looking from behind Leia to who ever she is talking too.)

    They can age her footage, de-age her footage or just retouch it for what ever reason( retouching, aka photoshopping, way harder on moving footage), maybe change her expression. Once they use real footage of her I would guess they would be allowed to use digital doubles for action shots as well.
     
    #37 Rellum, Aug 12, 2018
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  18. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    the "rules" stem from what we learned in the PT (which is canon) where you have to train pretty much your entire life, and very heavily, in order to achieve your full potential power and obi-wan, yoda, qui-gon, and Anakin took years of heavy training to learn the force ghost technique...NOW, if you wanted to counter that with the thinking that Anakin learnt it after his death just like Qui-Gon Jinn did, then there is a case for Leia being able to do so although I think that Anakin did it by learning through the years since he was never ultimately a bad guy and was also the chosen one...also only force users can become ghosts...I could maybe give Leia a pass but using Han Solo to serve the story would be simply ridiculous
     
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  19. Cunir

    Cunir Rebel Trooper

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    Maybe theyll just do that thing where they show a close up of her face on a monitor, and have other people talking to her from a completely different place. That way she can keep appearing throughout the entire movie, and it wouldnt matter so much where her original scene was shot.
     
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  20. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    I remember J.J. showed someone 4 hours of footage from TFA. Then they said they are using unused footage from TFA. So I assume there are signiciant things that never made the cut that will work. But what that is I don't have a clue
     
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