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So...planetary shields are pointless now, right?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by Unseen, Dec 25, 2015.

  1. alex

    alex Rebel Official

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    So much I want to reply to :)

    I kinda agree with you. Star trek 2 had to ignore the "we can teleport anyone anywhere at any time" as it could solve almost every problem. To me, the fractional refresh rate isn't that bad. They established that it could only work for shields that cover the whole planet, as something protecting a base would have a constant shield.

    For me, a stupider issue that will prolly be ignored is Han jumping to hyperspace from within a ship. How are tractor beams any good if the captured vessel can just jump out? Couldn't you destroy any death star by jumping an A-wing into the reactor core? I might make a separate thread on this.

    They basically blink the shields on and off to save energy. If it protect against bombardments and landing of ground troops, that's pretty useful.

    The death star is much smaller, and thus they could keep a constant shield turned on.

    I think we have to accept that there are different types of shields. Remember how the AT-ATs could walk though shields in ESB? Why doesn't this ruin ROTJ for you?

    Everyone breaks at different points. That's fine too. For me, it just has to make sense within the set up universe.

    Jumping past the shields isn't bothersome to me, because they made it clear it wouldn't usually work with other types of shields.

    It bothered me that the movie "wanted" has adrenaline give people super powers that bend space time. If they said the characters had magic, I would've like it more.

    Han jumping to hyperspace from within a vessel bothers me, because it creates future story problems and goes against the previous treatment of hyperspace.

    p.s. I know you were trying to make a point, but PM me if you are interested in learning about different types of shielding. EM shielding and acoustic levitation lays the ground work pretty well.

    Great point. They aren't pulling up from lightspeed, they are pulling up from freefall.


    I'm on your side. I've always thought of it as a computational issue too. I've always thought of it as a combination of raw processing power and Han's willingness to make "we aren't sure this is safe" jumps. Like maybe the safest route is 20 parsecs long with each jump having 100% chance of sucess, but he'll run the navicomputer on an uncharted shortcut and make jumps that are only 80% safe.
     
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  2. ArynCrinn

    ArynCrinn 1030th Lieutenant (Jr Mod)

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    Realistically, if shields blocked stuff travelling at, or faster than, the speed of light - you probably wouldn't see beyond them. There would have to be an intentional design limitation in order to allow light and other stuff pass through, so as to remain aware of external activities.



    Not a great analogy, because when you are stopped at a traffic light, it doesn't actually affect the distance you travel to reach your destination.

    If you have to travel a distance of 1 parsec, equal to about 3.26 light-years (31 trillion kilometres or 19 trillion miles), it doesn't matter if you are stopped along the way or not, because you still need to travel 1 parsec (unless you start getting into crazy relativity with curved space-time and stuff like that).

    It's better to think of the Kessel Run as a courier job where the destinations being delivered to are other couriers making deliveries. The only way to locate the other couriers, is with GPS. In order to make the run with a shorter distance, you need a faster GPS so you can get moving before the next courier get's even further away.
     
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  3. bkb

    bkb Rebel Trooper

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    Nah, that was a serious review. Mike loved it, Jay liked it and Rich think it was OK. That last part was a joke on that small but loud group of keyboard warriors who is spread all over internet and Jay sarcastic yell "to many plotholes" imitate them.
     
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  4. KiraRey_KyloRen

    KiraRey_KyloRen Rebel General

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    I hate when people don't get the science of planetary shields correct.
     
    #44 KiraRey_KyloRen, Jan 5, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2016
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  5. Light Savior

    Light Savior Force Sensitive

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    People ....ask Dr.Who.He must know about this things...:rolleyes:.

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Reivax

    Reivax Rebel Trooper

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    I'll try giving another example I thought of after I got off my work shift yest...this morning...

    Think of train robbers on horseback. Who is the best train robber? Who has the fastest horse? Who has the best riding skills?

    The train is at full speed on a stretch of 15 miles between towns. The only way to be successful is to complete this before the train reaches town.

    Now imagine this:

    Bank Robber group #1:
    -Rides up next to train.
    -Boards
    -Successfully steals all the 'loot' into saddlebags
    -Loads the saddlebags onto their horses...still at full speed
    -Gets on horses and leaves

    Completion Distance: 14 miles from boarding the train to complete the robbery and leave

    Bank Robber Group #2:
    -Rides up next to train.
    -Boards
    -Successfully steals all the 'loot' into saddlebags
    -Loads the saddlebags onto their horses...still at full speed
    -Gets on horses and leaves

    Completion Distance: 12 miles from boarding the train to complete the robbery and leave

    As you can see...time doesn't matter in reference to a clock, but rather in distance.
    While the group who completed it at 14 miles is, of course, still successful, it is still bragging rights to have done it in 12 with that much wiggle room.

    In SW's case, it is bragging rights over piloting, speed of craft, being good at smuggling, and more.
    Now assume it is several trains going different directions, different speeds, and on windy and unpredictable tracks. Having to plot which time and order to rob them, changes in speed, and efficiency of work are all huge factors on how short a distance this can be completed.


    ___________________________________

    When dealing with light speed, it is also interesting to note that time and distance are relative.

    Light Year...a unit of astronomical distance equivalent to the distance that light travels in one year

    Parsec... equal to about 3.26 light-years (31 trillion kilometres or 19 trillion miles) in length.

    Time recorded is also different from inside the vessel than it would be from outside....turns out Einstein's theories were correct, when this was tested with 3 atomic clocks: 2 in jets going different speeds, and one controlled variable clock stationary on the ground.

    I find it all interesting at least...
     
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  7. eeprom

    eeprom Rebel General

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    Cool theory, but no. Parsecs are a measure of distance used in observational astronomy that assume the viewer is on our planet’s surface. They’re a product of how luminous bodies “arc” across the night’s sky. On a starship, in the void of space, there’d be no parallax, no arc, no parsecs. There, you’d likely instead judge interstellar expanses using ‘light years’.

    Either ‘parsec’ means something different in the Star Wars universe than it does in ours or (much more likely) Lucas just used that word because he thought it sounded cool and didn’t care what it actually meant.
     
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  8. Duke Groundrunner

    Duke Groundrunner Rebel Official

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    Live on a Starship.
     
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  9. Grand Master Galen Marek

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    Off course there is that option, the galaxy is full of the disused ones from the past wars.
     
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  10. eeprom

    eeprom Rebel General

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    The canon novel “A New Dawn” introduced baradium bisulfate. It’s an explosive that’s combustible enough to implode a moon (provided you had enough).

    If my understanding is right, they wouldn’t need to drop out of hyperspace. They’d just run right into the thermal oscillator at light speed.

    To clarify, I’m not suggesting the Resistance actually do this. My only point is that introducing a wrinkle like this to the plot opens you up to issues like this. If the Starkiller shields are vulnerable to hyperspace entry then why not devise an attack that specifically exploited this? Not a big deal, just a bit of a head scratcher for me is all.
     
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  11. Talon Karrde

    Talon Karrde Rebel Official

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    Nice try.
    But if you want to use that route to try and torch this film in my eyes you need to remember that the Rebels in 1977 had access to the same stuff.
    "They shut down the main reactor!" Ok so we know from just that one line of expository dialogue that it's possible to rig the main reactor on a starship to blow. Once the Rebels have the Death Star plans, you just rig up one of those spaceships to make a jump to lightspeed into the Death Star's main reactor chamber, set off your wildcat reactor explosion(Halo term there) and blam-o! End of the movie.(epic fail)

    And everyone in the audience is stone-faced. Star Wars 1977 becomes any old, forgotten science fiction bomb, not the beloved space opera film it is today.

    You see, Star Wars is more about setting your plot up for moments like this:


    Not moments like this:
     
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  12. eeprom

    eeprom Rebel General

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    I’m not trying to “torch this film”. I simply take issue with this particular plot convenience. The loophole with the shield only exists in the story so that they could have Han and Finn where they were when they were. They wanted to echo ROTJ with Han disabling a shield generator and ANH with the antagonist killing his former father figure in front of the protagonists.

    It seems to me they were more interested in creating familiar callback moments than working out the details (like R2 waking up*). That’s entirely their prerogative of course. The vast majority of the movie going audience certainly doesn’t care either way. Ultimately, none of this truly matters, but bellyaching about inconsequential story elements is largely what forums like this are about :)

    What if Starkiller never had a shield to start with? What if attacking the ‘thermal oscillator’ on two fronts was always the plan? What would be the difference? Why invent a situation to excuse a story element that didn’t really need to be in there in the first place? Just for rhyming stanzas?

    *R2 being offline was a callback to him getting shot in the head during the trench run during ANH. His fate was unknown until he reappeared during the medal ceremony at the end looking all shinny and new. R2 coming back online was supposed to evoke the same general feeling of relief for the audience.

    Trouble is it doesn’t wind up making a tremendous amount of sense. So why have it in there at all? Why not just have R2 operational right from the start? Again, why invent a situation to excuse a story element that didn’t really need to be in there in the first place? Just for rhyming stanzas?

    I don’t know if I’m making any sense. Probably not.
     
    #52 eeprom, Jan 6, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2016
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  13. ArynCrinn

    ArynCrinn 1030th Lieutenant (Jr Mod)

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    But they couldn't just destroy it... they needed to provide Finn, Han, and Chewie with a chance to rescue Rey.

    They probably shouldn't have ever had Rey get captured in this movie.
     
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  14. Talon Karrde

    Talon Karrde Rebel Official

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    The shield angle of Starkiller is designed to convey that the FO has built a better mousetrap. The shield is no longer reliant on an external source, which was main weakness of Death Star II. The FO is also well aware of the weak point, so they put a giant armored plug over it.
    And, as lousy as her dialogue is, that's why Phasma isn't too concerned about lowering the shields. They're well prepared for the Resistance to try and pull a Yavin stunt.
    What they weren't prepared for was the second coming of Christ so to speak..
    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Light Savior

    Light Savior Force Sensitive

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    Really ....This thread is to DEEP for me.I will put my sneakers on and go jogging.See your around the forum guys...:).

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. eeprom

    eeprom Rebel General

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    I thought DS2 only had a shield because it was under construction and vulnerable. Plus the generator on Endor’s moon served as a lure for Palpatine’s trap.
     
  17. MarsPhoenix

    MarsPhoenix Sith Psychiatrist

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    Star Wars movies were always labelled as Sci-Fi movies... I always seen them as Fantasy.

    People are complaining about shields, and parsecs and gravity and Star Trek stuff.

    What about the Force? Force Lightning, objects moving with the power of the will, ghosts.
     
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  18. Talon Karrde

    Talon Karrde Rebel Official

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    Nothing you just said is necessarily untrue. In fact, you just reminded me of yet another improvement in the mousetrap: no locals.
    [​IMG]

    Now, I have EGtV&V so I'm well aware of those millimeter wide vent tubes the Empire meant to install.
    Nonetheless, those were the defenses at the Battle of Endor. And it would be recorded as such in the Imperial Archive the FO reconstructed. And initially they succeeded in holding off the Rebel attack.

    And any surviving accounts would have come from Star Destroyers that escaped the battle so more detailed specifics about Palpatine’s plans may not have survived the battle, including the actions of a legion of his best troops. I mean, Luke Skywalker is referred to as a myth and he was on DS2.
     
  19. Unseen

    Unseen Rebel Commander

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    You don't get it.

    I'm just saying that now future writers either have to make shields obsolete, or ignore this convenient JJ solution.

    Much like future Star Wars movies have to ignore the magic blood of Caucasian Kahn.

    My point is JJ focuses on cool ideas and cool scenes, not plot, motivation, and consequences.

    People can label me a troll, but the shield thing is just one of several magic plot trick that will just have to be ignored.

    TFA is made up of cool moments, but as a film it is pretty rough
     
  20. techsteveo

    techsteveo Rebel Official

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    Fear not. Han says their shield has a fractional refresh rate which which prevents anything traveling slower than light speed from getting through. So if that's the case, I'm sure there are shields that don't have that issue. Besides. Most shields are there to deflect an enemy bombardment from larger capital ships, not small vessels. Lastly, I think we are to believe that not many people or ships could pull off that maneuver. The Falcon is one of the fastest ships when traveling through hyperspace, which also means it's the perfect ship to get through that shield.

    Now, suspend your disbelief and enjoy the fact that Han, Chewie and the Falcon are probably the only ones that could get through.
     
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