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Space Battles - a lost art in SW movies

Discussion in 'General Movie Discussion' started by Lock_S_Foils, Feb 3, 2020.

  1. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    I will start this off with my opinion - bottom line - all of the best space battles in SW are either in the OT or the PT

    The ST's space battles were kind of "meh" for me, as a space ship junkie.

    So, for the future of SW trilogies - WE WANT EPIC SPACE BATTLES AGAIN!!!!

    th.jpg
     
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  2. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    There weren't even real space battles in the ST.

    The only time we see ships in space firing at another ship is in TLJ with Kylo attacking the command ship of the Resistance.

    So yes, I agree- the ST definitely lacks some neat space action.

    My most favorite space battle is still the 'Battle of Endor'.
     
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  3. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    R1 is the Disney era exception to this....

    In order of epicness, IMO:

    1. A New Hope - Death Star Assault

    2. Revenge of the Sith - opening sequence. ARC-170 engine noise alone is peak epicness

    3. Return of the Jedi - Death Star 2 - WEDGE: "Red Leader Standing By" .... nuff said ....also...of course....IT's...A....TRAPPPPP

    4. Rogue One - Battle of Scarif - More epicness from the Mon Cala

    5. The Phantom Menace - "I'll try spinning" nearly torpedoes this entire scene

    LARGE GAP....

    6. The Force Awakens - SKB.....Poe's low level flying pretty epic

    7. TLJ - opening scene - Resistance bombers interesting concept , nossa well done in execution

    8.TROS - More is not necessarily better. Although the best scene for stop motion identification of fan service
     
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  4. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    I forgot about that space battle. So, the ST is two space battle. But both are pretty meh.

    I agree. Furthermore you don't see much of that fight.
     
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  5. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    It may not be in space, but TFA's Falcon chase is one of my favorite space ship fights of all time.

    Second and possibly tied is the ending Falcon space chase in Solo...my god that was jaw dropping. The Falcon barrel roll slapped a TIE fighter! Whaaat?!

    I really liked the Falcon chase in TROS as well. It was a nice spin on the idea and had plenty of sparkle and punch.

    TLJ's opening had one hell of a go at it. We really see Poe just flat out rocking it like an ace.

    And TFA's dog fight on Takodana was just gripping fun. It was really interesting to see one interplay with the ground fight. We were never left to sit for one second, constantly spun back and forth between the two.
    It was interesting watching the X-Wing form dictate the camera into a hand-off to the ground fight dictating the camera. Like a Spielberg hand-off shot, but now between a spaceship and people on the ground. That was insane!

    There's no big armada fights, except in R1 and TROS at the end, true. But I've had some of the most shocked amazement and excited thrills from the ST's spaceship fights.

    I know a lot of folks loved R1, but the space battles didn't do anything for me. They looked pretty, but something just wasn't hooking me.
    It felt very PT in that way. The PT had these really great designs and screen packed space battles, but it was lost on me. It was just...stuff. I just watched ROTS yesterday, and that opening battle is pretty, but I feel like I'm watching a video game cut scene. Not because of the graphics. No.
    Just...I don't know. It's just a bunch of stuff. There's no connection to the kinetic energy of what's going on. Everything is on equal footing and no real narrative tangent is in the action.

    The OT dialed it in better. There always was a direct narrative tangent in the spaceship action - there was a kinetic grasp of the flow. It was specific to one ship's character and molded around that. In ANH you had the X-Wing merged with Luke as an identity and the Trench Run was all Luke in focus of its narrative and moved around the idea of the David vs Goliath theme. Luke in a little X-Wing vs the giant Death Star.
    The X-Wing governed the form of the camera. Straight. Sharp angles. Narrow. Speed.

    ESB had the snowspeeder which again focused around Luke in a David vs Goliath motif, but in a different way. We're seeing the snowspeeder's style and form lead the kinetic energy of the scene. All swoops and arcs, unlike the the X-Wing of the Trench which were narrow sprints and sharp turns.

    ROTJ was an all out everything gets thrown at the screen, but it's centered around the Falcon through it all and it's all shot in a way that form fits to the slit and thin design of the Falcon. Everything's a narrow passing just fitting through. You never quite feel like you can see above well enough - like you need to lean forward and try to look up. If ANH was informed by the X-Wing form being a thin and narrow needle shot through a thin trench, ROTJ's camera during this battle is being informed by the wide, flat, and narrow Falcon. You really feel like "pull up" is on your lips almost always. It's very horizontally governed with limited vertical space in the narrative flow of the camera, and when the vertical happens, it's a lumbering show of the underbelly. Like, "Oooh Here We..Goooo".

    In the PT...I don't really get this. There's big battles and really cool ideas like the ship on ship canon firing homage in ROTS which was really cool, but it's a throw away scene that's not the focus - it's just one in a blur of many scenes of neat ideas thrown together. The scene isn't moved and defined by big shop personality and ship on ship canon fire. It's just one cool thing and then moved past.

    Our focus in here is Anakin and Obi, but their ships don't define the battle. They could have been flying in anything really. It was a bunch of spinning around each other and felt more like they were just flying through a battle on a Sunday afternoon before Tea Time.

    TPM's space battle wasn't much better. It just kind of happened. It didn't really flow around the form.
    Compare it against the pod race. The pod race is woven around the form and kinetic sense of Anakin's pod racer. The whole way through that you feel that kinetic sense directly gripping the lense of the camera. His pod owns the camera and determines the manner in which the camera behaves and acts and dictates how we're shown things. It's like we're in the trench run again.

    A lot of the space battles in the PT don't do this.
    They don't have a ship govern the form of what we're shown and how things move relative to the camera. It's a bunch of cool looking stuff on screen, but it's also just a bunch of cool looking stuff. The kinetic story telling isn't there in the same way as it is for the pod race.

    There is one space battle that does pretty well. Obi-Wan vs. Slave.
    That did pretty well at dictating the camera from the form of the ships and their styles. It's a tad muddled in a few spots but that's because it's letting each ship dictate the form according to which ship is taking the lead role at the moment and we're tossed back and forth between both taking the lead. But it still does it.

    R1 kind of mostly was more like PT space battles with OT ships. However, R1 was more kinetic than the PT was generally by the camera feeling more personal. Like we're watch dog fight footage. So it connects pretty well in spite of not having a sole narrative form dictated by a ship and its form and behavior.

    TROS finale battle is pretty much formless. It's not so much a space battle as an absolute clusterf***. I get the feeling that was the point though. It was more about the massiveness of everything than about a ship dictating the form.
    I don't see this as a space battle.

    The rest of the battles in the ST and Disney era are just as kinetic and top notch as the OT and the PT's pod race.
    There's a very driven sense to all of them where the ship absolutely informs the way the shots move and flow.

    That, to me, has been the big success.
    There's not big giant space battles galore like the PT, but there's still space battles and they're as visceral as ever.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #5 Jayson, Feb 8, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
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  6. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    I have to disagree on this one. The hyperspace jumping heavily violates the established traveling in the OT and PT. Making a jump to hyperspace isn't easy and you have to rely on math and map reading.

    "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"
    - Han Solo, ANH

    Yeah, it may be fun to see the Falcon jumping to different locations in seconds, but it's pretty stupid if you look at it by the help of canon. This jumping wasn't portraying Poe's skill but pure luck.
     
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  7. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    I don't care about that stuff. Never have. Never will.
    I care about the effectiveness of the shot and scene.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  8. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    But if a scene or shot is considering the rules of its world, then it's much more effective.
     
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  9. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    I don't agree.
    Firstly, you're putting your head into an imaginary encyclopedia while watching a movie. Already things are off foot. I don't watch this way. I'm very visual. If it works visually, I'm good.

    I don't care about rules. I never stop and say, "Bull! That can't happen!", about a film.
    Physics in films is slippery at best.
    I grew up watching Zorro, Lone Ranger, Original Star Trek and eventually Next Gen, Dukes of Hazard, A-Team, Knight Rider, Air Wolf, He-Man, and GI Joe...to name a few.

    Rules?
    lol No one followed rules. They made s*** up, in about a week or less, that looked cool and went with it.

    Star Wars especially did this.
    Until the 90's, there was no such thing as what could or couldn't happen in Star Wars.
    The only conversation about that was between two 8 year olds playing with action figures yelling at each other over whether what one of them did was fair because 'There's no way Han would do that!'...'Yahuh, Buttface!'

    The whole EU thing spit out this trend of nitpicking some made up reality and Lucas basically always said 'That's nice children. Pardon me while I do wtf I want'.

    Who cares?
    So Han said it was impossible?
    So did Rey when they landed. Something like 'You can't do that' ... 'Well..we just did.'

    And it was shown all over as basically how Han said it, if you care about it, they plopped up in really bad places by doing that and it was a really bad idea no one should attempt.

    Han did a similar thing in TFA when popping so close. Hell, Han's always been the hot dog doing psychotic shots.

    It fits fine for me, and was a great one-up of the ANH Death Star escape TIE chase, which is a challenge because it was already one-upped by TFA with Rey and Finn's Falcon/TIE chase.

    Ultimately, for me, if you're ever stunting a scene or shot because of some made up universe rule, you're doing cinema wrong.
    The only rules that matter are narrative and cinema rules and even those should be pushed upon.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #9 Jayson, Feb 8, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
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  10. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    If Star Wars went by rules then Han shouldn't have been able to use a lightsaber and other random things I could bring up.

    But I liked the space battles in the ST. They didn't have to be like the OT or the PT. Or have any at all. It's also ok if you didn't like them.
     
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  11. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    @Jayson,

    It looks like, you don't really differ between in-universe rules and reality rules. Example for breaking rules: ships making noises in space. In reality they wouldn't do that, but they do in SW.

    This is one is okay for me. It was a clever idea to bring the viewer closer to the action. And this was always the case for the characters. But the jumping around in space is known to be impossible for characters and the viewers.
    => Rules are broken in both worlds.

    Yes, rules are to be broken, but this is referring more to the technical and narrative making of movies and not to the rules of the universe in which the movie is set in.

    On paper this hyperspace jumping sounds smart. But if you think about it there are several problems.

    1) it's deadly
    At first Poe decides to make a hyperspace jump through an ice wall. But running into things at the speed of light shouldn't end very well. Just look at the consequences of the Holdo move.

    2) the plan is ridiculous
    The TIE fighters follow the Falcon through every jump and Poe only manages to lose them because the TIEs get hit by random objects or structures. This doesn’t happen to the Falcon, mainly because of luck. Poe is basing his entire plan on hoping the TIEs get taken out by random debris.

    3) as mentioned before- the lore
    It has been highlighted time and time again that hyperspace jumps require careful calculations to avoid running into things at lightspeed, which usually results in a quick death. Now using random coordinates completely takes certainty of safety.

    You have no idea where you will come out, which is incredibly risky.


    Long story short- this shouldn’t work. But it does because JJ needed an excuse to show several location in a flashy and cool way. But he didn't care about lore or the rules of the universe in this movie. He wanted to make a brain less spectacle. That's it. Of course, you can like it. It's fun after all. But personally I wanted better.


    This one is nonsense. It was never established that a non-force user can't handle a lightsaber.
     
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  12. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    This is a nice example, yes, I agree.
     
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  13. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    Nah, it really isn't.
     
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  14. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    giphy(2).gif
     
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  15. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    As you noted, I don't separate different types of rules.

    Also, my prior examples, especially Star Trek OS, broke their own rules regularly.

    If you tried to figure out warp speed in the OS...good luck!
    It was horribly inconsistent.

    Further, I've lost track how many times the holy prime directive was violated without anyone batting an eye.

    How many shots can the ship take before it's in danger? Mmmm...however much is needed for the threat in the script.

    As to SW...Lucas openly made up whatever as he went. He openly stated multiple times that he was bound by no such rules and the only rules he cared about were what the narrative needed for a good story.

    Then there's Han in ESB defying an in universe rule being told to him by C3PO regarding asteroids.
    By the odds spit out by 3PO, Han should have never, ever survived that and he was clearly relying on a pile of luck to throw debri at the TIE's and hoping he would just squeak through.
    This is a 99.97% chance of death.

    This is the scene they are refraining in TROS.

    Setting: Chased by TIE's after escaping Imperial domain.
    Rule: You can't navigate an asteroid field and survive.
    Han: Yolo!

    Setting: Chased by TIE's after escaping First Order domain.
    Rule: You can't hyperspace hop and survive.
    Poe: Yolo!

    Me: Gobbling popcorn in front of my favorite Saturday matinee serial.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #15 Jayson, Feb 9, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
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  16. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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  17. GingerByte

    GingerByte Jedi General

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    Explain how Pre Vizsla, Bo Katan, Sabine Wren, Moff Gideon, Han Solo, Chewbacca, and countless other non-force sensitives have used lightsabers in canon then?

    @Jayson I have to disagree with you man. The Disney Star Wars films have done nothing but undermine the whole hyperspace line in ANH; R1, TFA, TROS all have the heroes pulling off these 'impossible' tasks with zero consequences. We had seven films and a TV series worth of heroes doing their best to stick to these rules out of fear of death. You can't just have some 'nobody' like Poe pull off a move not even a better pilot like Han Solo or a Jedi would dare. As @NinjaRen said, pre-existing rules matter, as soon you start breaking rules anywhere and everywhere, suddenly there are no stakes. There's stakes in TCW and the OT when the heroes are trying to escape the overpowering villains, and they can't do anything but flee until they can plot a safe course. Now, there's zero tension because everyone who has ignored the in-universe rules have come out fine.

    You say Lucas never made himself beholden to rules, but that's not exactly true. Sure, he broke previously established rules, but he put in the time and effort to come up with a reason as to why it worked in that case, and only that case. Abrams just adds it in with zero regard and forces the story group to try and rationalise it. Do I even have to mention two awful examples in one film alone: faster-than-hyperspace laser and a shield you can only pass through at lightspeed? :rolleyes:
    In other words, the ST has taken one of the few high fantasy elements of SW, and diluted it into mindless drivel. This'd be like Gandalf teleporting the Eagles to himself out of nowhere in LOTR, instead of risking death waiting days for his message to be passed on and for them to arrive.
    Just because C3P0 says something doesn't guarantee its accuracy. He's well-known to be a melodramatic worrywart, not to mention he's a protocol not an astromech or fighter droid.
     
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  18. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    A) I don't care.
    B) I repeat: I don't care

    If I did....and I really don't...

    C) Poe isn't a nobody, even if you don't like him.
    D) C3PO saying something is just as valid of a rule as Han saying something.

    E) Caring about this stuff is beyond rediculous to me.



    All I said was that I enjoyed the ST spaceship battles. They were better than the PT by miles for me. The one of Poe jumping hyperspace was cited for disagreement and the reason cited for the disagreement was that it broke the in-universe rule regarding hyperspace jumping.

    To which I firstly say, I do not care, and secondly say, so what - rules are broken anyway, and Han also defied rules repeatedly.

    Now, I'm really going to circle back to what I really think instead of getting bogged down in this endless and fruitless debate of the imagination.

    I do not care about the rules of any universe.

    What I care about is whether it looks cool, engages me, and follows narrative rules, or defies narrative convention in an amusing way.

    Does this scene do these things in some mixture?
    Yes. It looks cool, engages me, and doesn't break narrative convention...which means the first two are the valuable bit. It looks cool and engages me.

    That is my measuring stick.
    Kinetic impact, camera governed by the ship design and behavior.
    Said otherwise, looks cool and engages me.

    Yes. This scene does that.

    Also...the story group has final say on all ideas. The scripts all pass through them for sign off first. This has been mentioned several times as a side comment variously by Abrams, Johnson, and Kennedy.
    So if you really care...I do not...this stuff all ran past that group before being shot.

    But...I really don't care. That such a thing as the story group exists is just silly talk. People should not be stuck in the world of 8 year old squabbles during pretend time, and I guarantee Lucas never asked them for permission if he wanted to do anything, and Lucas cared far less about the universe than fans do. He cares about art and message. He's been repeatedly clear about that.

    And even if he did care like fans do...so what?
    I still wouldn't care. This kind of stuff is why I'm not a Star Trek "fan" and don't have interest in their forums.
    If this is what Star Wars is to become as well...then I'll stop considerring myself a Star Wars fan.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #18 Jayson, Feb 10, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
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  19. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    @Jayson,

    Deus ex machinas are not fun. If you make your own rules, then you have to play after your own rules. Don't create a law that for one scene doesn't apply while it applies for others. Follow your own brand of logic. You know why?
    Firstly exactly as @GingerByte said, it kills the hype and reduces the stakes. Secondly, if you break your own law, then viewers/readers will be caught up in thinking about how this wasn't possible in an other scene or situation (just look why we are discussing).

    Rules/laws are tough to create, yes. Mainly because they have to be self consistent. If laws/rules of your world conflict themselves, then your readers/viewers will ask themselves whether the story is worth further thought or not. And by my experience and teachings I know people lose interest if you're not consistent, because your viewers/readers love to understand the fictional world which they're invested in.

    As are fan of writing you should know this: deus ex machinas are lazy.
     
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  20. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    Like it always take ten shots and the shields are down!? But it is never that simple, there are always more variables than the number of shots (what systems are running in the background, where exactly does the shot hit the ship etc. etc).

    Good example. And remember the debate about the TLJ's falling bombs-how exactly does the process of dropping bombs work in zero gravity, out of orbit. Didn't take long before Rian Johnson himself addressed it in an interview, because it was important to him, that people understood that they’re Maglev [magnetic] bombs and existing rules do matter.

    Like @NinjaRen said, pre-existing rules matter, as soon you start breaking rules anywhere and everywhere, suddenly there are no stakes.

    This.


    Yeah, Lucas vs Disney SW is like the Eagles in Lotr vs. the Eagles in The Hobbit movie.
     
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