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STAR WARS Ranking Based on Competitive Picking

Discussion in 'General Movie Discussion' started by Jayson, Jul 3, 2020.

  1. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Alright everyone, I've updated the data, and given the report a major overhaul.
    The primary data engine has been changed to a more point scoring approach (again, to avoid unintuitively playing golf), and I fixed a few minor underlying Tableau oddities with percentages (any of you who work with Tableau are likely familiar with table calculation oddities when asking for a percent of a subset within the window...yeesh...meanwhile, over in excel...um...already done before we started).

    Also, as mentioned, a new flavor dimension has been added for emotion. That is; is the film an upbeat or downbeat film?
    For example, ESB and Rogue One are downbeats, while Solo and ANH are upbeats.

    The idea is whether the energy of the film is exhilarating or pondering - regardless how excited one may be. This is in regards to the overall tonality of the story.
    A good instance of this is ROTS. ROTS is a downbeat, because the ending is a tragedy. Even though it ends with one of the favorite saber battles in the saga for many fans, the overall story is not one of triumph and victory, but of suffering and loss.

    And that's more or less the two basic flavors Star Wars comes in: (1) Triumph and Victory (2) Suffering and Loss.
    Or said otherwise, (1) Upbeat (2) Downbeat

    I will come back when I have more time, but holy cow there is some really fascinating perspectives with this layering added on.
    Try it yourself. Go click on the RANK filter (yellow drop down), select a rank level, and then click on Upbeat or Downbeat side of the on the SCORES BY EMOTION pie chart and check out the differences between how much weight dark and light shows are pulling at each varying rank (or set the RANK to ALL and see the effect on the whole).

    NOTE: Something screwy is going on with the tableau public's width parameters so the page is rendering out off center and too far to the right periodically.
    To fix this, I will be making a dedicated page on my website to embed this properly without the wonky tableau portal sizing going off (Tableau has been updating their online design and presence and more than one thing has been going a bit askew lately).

    In the meantime, you appear to be able to bypass the issue by entering fullscreen mode in your browser.

    Anyway, yep. Check it out!

    https://public.tableau.com/profile/...nkingByCompetitiveTest/Dashboard1?publish=yes

    Cheers,
    Jayson

    @Addi Ras, @Angelman, @blame182, @DarthSnow, @Embo and His Pet Anooba, @Flyboy, @General Kenobi, @Josh, @MandoChip, @Matsemitsu, @Meister Yoda, @Messi, @NinjaRen, @oldbert, @Olivia Kenobi, @RockyRoadHux, @Rogues1138, @RoyleRancor, @Sir Puke, @SKB, @Stavross, @Too Bob Bit, @Use the Falchion, @Veronica
     
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  2. oldbert

    oldbert Guardian of Coffee Breaks

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    Very interresting is the distribution of the rankings for the ST because there you can see the two modes of fan types.
    Especially the strong "dislike fraction" of some of the fans sums up with the "average fan fraction".
    I think the social media century motivates people to "post out loud" what they don't like, but it's not the same in the positive direction. We tend to show negativ emotions freely. Oth we often feel a little bit a shame and weak if we do the same with the positive ones.
    Sheeve is right then, ".. I feel your hate, it makes you stronger, use it...."
     
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  3. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I don't know about that, actually.

    Firstly, we're talking about a closed set of community members here and not general populations or open polling on social media.
    But mostly because when you break the numbers down what you see is that AOTC takes the cake at being on the bottom, and TROS comes up second.

    That said, when you look at the whole picture of all ranks, the ST takes up second place after the OT.
    When you flip it to Upbeat shows, the ST increases its distance from the rest of the non-OT pack.
    Look at the hardest rank to get into: Rank 1.
    In Rank 1, the OT just dominates over every other series, but when you look past that, the ST continues to dominate the second place in Rank 1 with both TLJ and TFA coming in.

    The top tier films are the OT, Solo, TLJ, ROTS, and TFA.
    The PT doesn't even have a second film placement currently in Rank 1 at all. It's pretty much ROTS that carries the PT almost entirely - nearly accounting for half of the value points for the trilogy. HALF.

    The ST doesn't have that. It's spread out more.

    What you do have with the ST is almost identical to the OT, just at a lower rate because the OT takes so many top tier votes (legacy is king after all).
    The OT has ANH and ESB nearly tied and ROTJ bringing up the rear.
    With the ST, you have TFA and TLJ storming off the lead near each other and then, once again, TROS bringing up the rear.

    The difference here is that TROS brings up less than ROTJ by about 5% withinside the trilogies respectively (which...isn't really that much of a difference).

    AOTC and TROS, do, however bring up the lead in the 11th Rank - absolutely.
    And I think there's a rather simpler explanation.

    AOTC is a confused ending emotionally. There's a victory, then Yoda says it's not a victory and the music gets all somber, and then there's a wedding and the music just hard shifts into a weird upbeat sound that jars with the prior downbeat music - you're left a bit bitter sweet.

    TROS is similar. Yes, they whoop everyone's arse and Rey triumphs, etc..., but Ben dies and there's a huge chunk of fans who really liked him and killing him off either just doesn't work, or needed to be done differently. The tonality has the same issue here - triumph, oh, wait, Rey's dead, here comes Ben, Yay! he saved her, oh..wait, Ben's dead. Then there's a reception party YAY! Medals & hugs! And finally we're staring deeply off in the sunset alone - no party last scene.

    PHHHEW!!!! That's AOTC's emotional waffle flipping on steroids. It's going to be more complex and more complex emotional endings resonate less strongly across the board - just like music, really.
    If I end a song with really complex chordal dissonance, then there will be those that love that ending, but it won't nearly be as attractive as an ending that hits the root and 5th degree of the root in a big finale.

    How you end really is the crowning rule of how you'll be remembered, and both AOTC and TROS kind of end in a "....mmhmm? - hmm..." rather than a "HURRAH!!!" (or ESB, which ends in a " - *gasps for breath* WAIT! What happens next!?"

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  4. oldbert

    oldbert Guardian of Coffee Breaks

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    I refer to this graph.. with a look on the ST without the others

    Screenshot_20200716_082510.jpg

    I am not very good in statistics, but I see a peak between rank 9 and 11.
    I know we should have a much more bigger population for a representative specimen ..
    .. so it's more speculation than hard facts. You see I'm part of the system:)
     
    #64 oldbert, Jul 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
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  5. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    ;)

    Now watch what happens when we filter down additionally to TROS (keeping your filters, but adding an additional filter of TROS).
    Capture.PNG

    You'll spot that it's accounting for the dominant amount of the 10 and 11 slot (approximately around 75% for 10 and for 11 each).

    So it's not a lot of general ST, but more specifically TROS that the lower scores enter in.
    If you zero in on TFA and TLJ, you'll see a general leaning toward the higher ranks and middle with only a slight tick in the bottom.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  6. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Quick update: I added a FILM FILTER.
    Though this is above the "FILM SERIES RANK AVERAGES" section, it affects the entire workbook.
    I just put it there so that it was easy to click on a film series from the FILM SERIES RANK AVERAGES to filter down to a series, and then use the FILM FILTER to filter out or down to a specific film.

    Filtering down to a specific film was already something that could be done, even after already filtering down to its series.
    However, if you wanted to look at things without a certain film - that was much harder.
    Let's say you wanted to look at ST, Stand Alone, and PT without the shadow of the OT.
    Easy. Hold CONTROL KEY on your keyboard and click on ST, STAND ALONE, and PT in FILM SERIES RANK AVERAGES.

    However, let's then say you wanted all series except for the OT, but also wanted to filter out TROS to see what the ST looks like without TROS involved among other non-OT series'.
    Previously this kind of nested negative filtering was impossible.

    So now you can examine more abstract and organic trains of thought.

    NOTE: I just threw this on real quick and dirty - I haven't had a chance to check the results on the tablet or phone, so if it's missing or fugly, I'm sorry. I'll get to it later.
    Capture.PNG

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  7. oldbert

    oldbert Guardian of Coffee Breaks

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    I should have known it better, because I'm one of the people whose ranking activity led to the TROS results :D
     
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  8. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    That's kind of the cool thing about this data, compared to online "ratings" data.
    No one is actively giving any film poor points.

    Everything you do is based around picking the film you like over another. So you're always giving the positive value.

    What that means is the stuff at the bottom isn't necessarily hated (though it can be), but it definitely means it is less attractive.

    It's sort of like a dinner plate - most folks eat in priority of what they like the most to the least, but that doesn't usually mean that the last thing they eat, or the least thing they eat, is hated. It's just that potatoes aren't usually going to win over a steak out of the two. ;)

    So the data we get is more gentle in its negatives, and a bit less hyperbolic.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  9. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    This is, quite possibly, one of the coolest things ever. And amazing at how close this competitive ranking came to the "off the top of my head" listing.

    movie rankings.PNG
     
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  10. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Updated! :)

    (ALL: also fixed the width issue, but still haven't migrated the film filter to tablet and mobile.)

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  11. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend
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    ESB on 9th. How could that happen :D I thought it's supposed to be always No. 1
     
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  12. Matsemitsu

    Matsemitsu Clone Commander

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    Huh, interesting! I had never looked at it quite that way, but there may be something to that. In fact, my main gripe with TROS, a film I overall enjoyed a lot, if less so than the other two sequels, was that the ending felt 1. a bit been there done that: Tatooine sunset was after all also the final image of the PT and 2. more importantly, I felt the saga couldn't end on this particular note, but needed to address the matter of the Jedi coming back. I always imagined a coda scene in which Artoo "tells" the story of the saga to a bunch of new Jedi far into the future in a rebuilt Jedi temple, thus making clear what the achievements of the Skywalker family were to history. Something like that would've given the movie a more triumphant ending than the rather contemplative scene we got.

    And sure, the ending of any film influences what mood we're in when we leave the theater, and therefore how we're going to rate the film.
     
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  13. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Dashboard Update:
    1) Fixed the mobile and tablet versions to add the Film Filters.
    2) During the previous update, I forgot to mention that I reverted on a component of the primary engine: I removed the weighting by film count in series (total rank score divided films in series). This is because, while valid for one very nuanced way of looking that things (comparing one specific thought of series weighting), it absolutely trashed the individual film ratings leaving it that way in the engine. I decided that it wasn't really that much of a great difference on the whole for the distance it was putting between it and the real data (ideally, you want as little artificial factoring of data as possible), so I cut it. Overall, I think this paints a more accurate picture. Sure, we can at times say, "Yeah, but there's only two films in the Stand Alone series", but quite honestly if we were a few years later, we would be saying it the other way around..."Yeah, but there's only three films in any Trilogy while there's five films in the Stand Alone series". So overall, it's fine to leave it raw I think.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 17, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 17, 2020 ---
    You know...3PO's story telling to the Ewoks is one moment that I don't think has been refrained. R2 doing that at some point would have been a nice touch. Unless you count the 42 year celebration kid's puppet show?

    That said, I think a bit more abstractly. I don't think you have to change much about TROS to make it pick up speed and strength in the ending.

    NOTE: trust me...I'm fully aware that playing armchair filmmaker is WAY easier than being a filmmaker, and hindsight at a distance from being inside the project is always easier to see other opportunities. With that out of the way...

    Move Rey's Tatooine sunset scene to before she decides to "go for it".
    For example:
    Rey & Kylo fight - Rey kills Kylo as Leia Dies
    Rey revives Ben
    Ben talks to memory of Dad
    First Order blows up planet
    Rebel camp receives news and First Order broadcast calling for surrender
    Rose to Poe, "Leia made you acting General, What now?" - Beat, push in on distressed Poe
    - Cut to -
    Rey on Tatooine sunset scene (yes, no xwing on the farm, but meh...this scene was never about optomism originally anyway, so having ben's Tie there instead somehow still would work - cut out the burying of the sabers thing...it's nice, but...eh - it's not essential - no Leia and Luke Ghost here)
    -Cut to-
    Poe's self-doubt as a leader scene by Leia's death bed and chat with Lando
    -Cut to-
    Rey on Ahch-To scene - learns from Luke to stay with it (makes the Tatooine scene seem more ponderous like Luke's was - which then makes it seem like she went there to think about what to do next, and arrived at the idea of "f--- it, I'm quitting and hiding like Luke did" when she shows up to Ahch-To...sort of ties it a bit).
    Rebel Camp gets Rey's beacon and Rey flies towards the Emperor (everyone's had their down beat, introspection, turned to the past for advice, and now is buckling up to dive in).

    Everything from here runs the same - same death dosey-doe that Ben and Rey had before, except ...

    We get to the final celebration - keep as is, but chime an ROTJ refrain (stick R2 projecting animated reenactments for some alien kids if you want).
    Rey walks off while everyone else celebrates and somberly reflects on Ben's death.
    She sees Leia, Luke, and Ben standing there as Force ghosts smiling at her. She smiles back.
    Finn walks over and calls to her.
    Rey snaps her attention.
    Finn cranes his neck and asks what she was looking at. Rey says nothing. Finn says he could have sworn he saw something.
    Rey looks quizzical and starts to ask if Finn's feeling things, but cuts herself off unsure. Finn shrugs and says, "Apparently?"
    They smile and head back to the party.

    Quick shot of Chewie thrusting Han's medal in the air and screaming.

    Roll credits. Fanfare.​

    >>What about Rey's yellow lightsaber? Make that before she goes to the final - she could have done that on Ahch-To off-screen and just shown up with it all "Gold leader standing by" style angry faced. What about Luke's lightsaber, what about Leia's? *shrug* Meh. Does that really need an answer right now?
    >>What about "Rey Skywalker" moment? *shrug* Shove it into the dialogue between her and her grandfather. There's effectively a "Round 1" and "Round 2" styling to it, she could have been defiant as "No, I'm a Skywalker" as a rebuttle to be being called a Palpatine and to take her place, which would have given Palps an opportunity to say that she can die like them then, and since there's still a "Round 2" moment ahead, that gives the "I am all the Sith" vs "I am every Jedi" thing still time to shine.

    That would have made the film's ending more single-threaded instead of back and forth so much; a bit less emotionally confused.
    Don't get me wrong, I love this film. EVERY Star Wars has clunky flaws in them that could be improved - an Edgar Wright film they are not (as in, very tightly tuned and excruciatingly specific to their exact layout).

    But I think this is an example where you don't really have to go changing the core story around, or even much of the actual footage at all, to strengthen the ending tonality to a single thrust.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #73 Jayson, Jul 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
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  14. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    @Meister Yoda As I have said very recently in other forums, I break many molds
     
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    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    result.png

    This was super-accurate, although I don't normally combine the Saga and Story movies into a single list and the positioning of TESB and AotC and TPM and RotJ sometimes fluctuates relative to one another (sometimes AotC will be ranked above TESB and TPM above RotJ) based on my mood.
     
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    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    I respect your opinion but have to ask, what about ANH you don’t like enough to make it your most unfavorite SW movie?
     
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    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    Just because ANH is ranked last, it doesn't mean I dislike it, because I like all of Star Wars.

    I still have my favorite individual stories, though, and ANH just ends up on the bottom of the pile sort of by default.
     
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  18. Matsemitsu

    Matsemitsu Clone Commander

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    Which makes me think that TLJ actually had an ending more like what I envisioned for the end of the saga than TROS had. Alien kids, reenactment, them being inspired by the heroic deeds of the Skywalkers, it's all there. In TLJ though, it felt out of place for me as we weren't done with the actual story of the Skywalkers yet (plus the small nitpick question of how these kids would've even learned of what Luke did on Crait). The Rey Skywalker scene is strangely self-referential by comparison.
     
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  19. Old Jedi

    Old Jedi Rebelscum

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    I did this a few times but this probably comes out pretty close to being the most accurate - although I admit 2-6 can all get shuffled in my mind on any given day. ESB at #1 is a certainty and the bottom 4 are movies that I genuinely don’t care much for other than they are SW - so they are still watchable. Very fun exercise - really love just seeing all the movie posters again - which are all great as well (ESB also my #1 movie poster!) 80FE6C07-6897-47C7-B343-0FC58FE364A8.jpeg
     
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  20. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Got your data added to the set.
    Thanks for participating! :)

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    All,

    ST still remains the leading runner up series after the OT. The Stand Alones - as a series - come up third for average rating, but for total points the PT still beats the Stand Alones (but if you remove AOTC - the lowest PT film - then the Stand Alones and the PT are tied for points).

    At any rate, the breakdown of points is OT, ST, PT, SA.

    If you remove the OT from the pool, and focus just on everything post-OT, then the ST just spanks everything else by a long shot.
    It accounts for 42% of all points. The PT comes in next at 33%, and the SA rounds it out at 26%.

    The post-OT top films continue to be TFA, TLJ, and ROTS.
    TFA has regained the lead over TLJ, but this is so close that they just toggle back and forth with almost every new tester's data.
    Basically, TFA and TLJ are like ANH and ESB - both rather well loved.

    In fact they're almost equal to ROTS, but ROTS drags behind them by a bit (usually by almost around 2 percentage points).

    Solo continues to lead over R1, but they have equaled out over time so that Solo isn't quite so far ahead of R1.

    Interestingly, when you strip out the Downbeat films, and only look at the post-OT films and series', then even though the Upbeat and Downbeat films are 50/50 split for points, the ST just dominates the Upbeat sector of the points spread.
    However, the SA (having only one title in this set - Solo) averages better points than the ST, because the ST has TROS dragging the average down.
    That said, the difference is basically negligible because they are effectively equal (the SA and ST, at this level of filtering).

    Interestingly, TROS, as much as everyone tends to drag their feet at appreciating it (commonly ends up in the bottom ranks) still out performs TPM, which remains the only Upbeat film of the PT.

    Filtering down to just the post-OT, but not filtering for emotion, TLJ absolutely slaughters Rank 1 & 2.
    TFA does the slaughtering at Rank 3, and the SA's start to catch up by the middle ranks of 4 and 5, but TROS - interestingly - swings back to rule the 6th rank by quite a bit. However, the SA owns the 7th and 8th rather easily before the rest of the ranks on down are almost entirely owned - soundly - by the PT (yep...the PT is basically king of the bottom ranks).

    What's really out there and wild is that AOTC...AOTC! ... it comes in SECOND place in Rank 3!

    Even though it's total points and average ranks are low, it's really fascinating to see it come in second place in post-OT films on any of the top three ranking positions. It's basically tied with Solo at Rank 3.

    Really wild results when you drill down.

    On the whole, however, things pretty much continue to follow the trend. OT, ST, SA, PT for averages, but OT, ST, PT, SA for total points.
    With the top 6 remaining pretty much what they have since the beginning: ANH, ESB, ROTJ, TFA, TLJ, & ROTS.

    Which is funny, because that means you could have a pretty nice Star Wars party with our testing group by marathoning ROTS, ANH, ESB, ROTJ, TFA, & TLJ in that order and have a chronological story, and everything in the top 6. lol

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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