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STAR WARS Ranking Based on Competitive Picking

Discussion in 'General Movie Discussion' started by Jayson, Jul 3, 2020.

  1. Matsemitsu

    Matsemitsu Clone Commander

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    Well, who would have thought that these words would ever be spoken in a forum such as this? And I love it. This little thing here is of course not representative at all, but I do draw the conclusion from this that especially TLJ fares much better in people's heart of hearts if a rigorous method like this comparative ranking is used. Clearly, it seems to beat many other SW films in a direct matchup.

    This also makes me muse about how the OT and ST are and were received in their respective time. The first one (ANH/TFA) is the exhilarating adventure that is hard not to love because of its sheer energy and forward narrative momentum. History-making commercial hits both. The second one (ESB/TLJ) is much darker, character-oriented and perhaps controversial. I'm not old enough to remember first hand, but I'm sure (and the "Secret History of Star Wars" book confirms this in part) that ESB was not the runaway "Best SW ever" success immediately. It certainly wasn't with critics at the time - and the fans? You can't tell me that after SW had established itself with ANH and its particular style of storytelling, that splitting up the team, going dark and philosophical, and ending on a downbeat cliffhanger went over super well with ALL the fans at the time. The final one then (ROTJ/TROS) is in a way a return to the style of the first (new Death Star to be vanquished; main characters operating as team once again; in the case of the ST, also same director) except cranked up to 11 for the big triumphant ending. Critics deride it (in both cases), it is accused of recycling ideas and being mostly food for a merchandising machine, and it commercially performs more on the level of entry #2 than entry #1, although Jedi did that better than Skywalker. And fans seem split. Remember the early internet days when people still posted things like "100 Reasons why Return of the Jedi sucks"? You don't see that all that often anymore. Hardly anyone, I dare say, considers Jedi to be "the best", but for many it's a, if not THE, sentimental favorite.

    I guess time will tell how the opinion on the ST will shake out long-term. But I do find the parallels in reception to the OT rather interesting.
     
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  2. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Nailed it.

    And Hamill has mentioned that he's glad they didn't have the internet when ESB came out.

    I've met a few older fans (I'm 41, so I mean folks in their 60's+) who really don't like ESB because it changed the narrative from being about how anyone, even a nobody from nowhere, can better theirself and stand up to tyrrany to one about magical royal blood and specialness.

    Now...where have we heard that before?

    One of the fun social experiment things about this saga is that because its stories are cyclical, and it took generations to come out with each addition, if you have the time for history, or a good memory, we get to see the same social behaviors being cyclical as well. :)

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #82 Jayson, Jul 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
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  3. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    Great. This is news for me. Actually I did know that a lot of fans and even critics didn't like TESB back in 1980.
    But that some fans dislike the movie because of nobody Luke from ANH was later revealed as the son of a great jedi master is news from me and it matches perfectly with what happened to Rey in TLJ and TROS transition.
     
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  4. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    The first time I heard this I was in my young 20's hitching a ride and the old guy brought it up.

    And if we stop and think about where America was in 1977, what was going on, what had happened over the past 20 years, what memes (proper use of the term) were socially circling around...

    Vietnam, government corruption, journalism taking on the government (which was a huge thing), the dying of Americana, a redefinition of "family" to be more what you find than what you inherit, cities falling apart to ruin, the rise of the military commercial industry as a distrusted evil, general dystopianism, elitism, a widening gap between the rich and poor, urbanization, a rotting ruralism (which itself, ruralism was part of Americana ... seriously 4H Club used to be huge), a shifting from collectivism to individualism, a battle of balancing technology and spirituality, and a lacking of a positive common social identity (negative common social identity, sure, but what everyone stood for rather than against...not so much)...

    Star Wars 1977 hit all of this without directly saying any of it.

    And if you're from this moment in time and walk in to Star Wars, and only Star Wars, on May 25th, what do you see?

    You don't see a magical saga.
    You see, basically, Midnight Cowboy in space against a backdrop of basically Midway with an insert of The Great Escape all wrapped up in Flash Gordon trimmings on steroids.

    And that Midnight Cowboy tangent is the part we don't readily notice today.

    We see "the heroe's journey", but back then what we think of as the "heroes journey" was just a really common 'country boy/girl in the big city' story. And those were really common at the time as many folks could relate to some degree with them as the US urbanized.
    Lucas may have meant to make a Heroe's Journey (who knows!), but what the audience would have understood the image as of a naive country boy from a dying, desolate, and dried up farmland region running off to the bright lights of a corrupt and fast paced bigger world filled with danger and evil while fighting to hold on to those core rural "noble" values which ultimately become the key to him overthrowing the power of tyranny is...well...basically Midnight Cowboy.

    That identity was completely blown to pieces with ESB.

    It's hard to do, but ANH reads very different if you can fool yourself into forgetting the rest of the films exist.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  5. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    @RockyRoadHux , A New Hope #1.....makes my heart happy!
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 20, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 20, 2020 ---
    @Jayson , is there an analytical or statistical term to describe this type of poll?

    Is it possible to set up another one of these on another topic? I went to the app where this resides and it seems you can't just set one up.

    Survey Monkey does not let you do this sort of poll....
     
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  6. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    It's an item tree analysis (ITA) employing a variation of lexicographic preference theory in a rather clever way.

    I doubt you'll find polls using those rather technical terms though. Most polls don't talk about their technicals on the front side (unless you're shopping for a polling engine perhaps).

    But yes, they are running a complex lexicographic logic on the back end.

    You could build an ITA on survey monkey that functions basically this way using sound ITA methods to design good clarification and competition in the questions (comparisons), but the inferrence on the answers is where the real gold is, and that's the lexicographic preference theory bit and I can't point out someone that does it open ended such that you can build a poll of any kind and it would build the competitive output based on the test results.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  7. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Jesus... @Lock_S_Foils
    You opened a can of worms here.
    I started trying to research the site, company, registrant, anything to make contact to read a white paper on their methods or ... anything, and holy cow. It's like the black ops of a site.

    There's no visible registrant, and it's locked down beyond almost anything I've ever seen - even the secondary layers are redacted. The only thing I got was Canada for nation of registrant. Which means nothing.

    Searching for the company yields nothing.

    There's zero on the site itself.

    It's really bizarre. Like...why?
    Kind of makes me wonder if they are training their algorithm that they will then turn around and sell as a comercial service and so they've locked down everything from visibility to protect their ip and identity?

    One thing is certain. Their slogan at the bottom "It's Science!" is wrong.

    This isn't anything like science. If it were science, we would have everything we want to know about who is involved and how it works. This is commercial analytics.

    Weird.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  8. Matsemitsu

    Matsemitsu Clone Commander

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    If I only knew how to do it, this would get the "great post" award from me as well. (But I really can't figure it out how to do it, haha.) All of what you say here is proof that those who complained after TLJ that "SW shouldn't be political" got it wrong what SW always was. Being political is about themes that resonate in their time or culture. I wonder how many people actively picked up on the fact that the Empire basically represents the Vietnam War era US government and how the Rebels are counterculture kids to an extent. Oh well, but that might be a topic for a different thread.

    Again, great insight. I wonder though, Jayson, since you and I are the same age: was ROTJ your first SW experience too?
     
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  9. Addi Ras

    Addi Ras MASTER TEA MAKER
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    @Matsemitsu you can start to rate post once you have posted 30 times you can also create threads at this point as well

    @Jayson thank you for this fantastic thread
     
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  10. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Yep. "ROTJ in the USA!" as one might sing to a certain song.

    I was so young seeing that, that I only somewhat can see it in my mind anymore.
    Indy & The Ark sticks out more, but mostly I can't see that film in my mind at that moment either, just the ride home after the movie was over. I recall it because it was when I realized what a movie was, and that the characters were real people pretending because Indy was Han and that had totally blown my mind away (for those scratching your heads on the conflict of dates here, I was a military brat and the theater on post regularly played old popular releases as well as new releases so in this way I happened to see ROTJ and Indy & The Ark in the same year...also...new releases were always late because we lived in Kodiak...in the 80's...soooo yeah - months late to a year late was normal...let's just say as a kid, there was a movie place, it played movies, and I had no idea why it played what it did...I just thought they all played movies this way when I was a kid).

    Cheers,
    Jayson
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 20, 2020, Original Post Date: Jul 20, 2020 ---
    You're welcome, and while we're taking a moment I'd like to thank everyone who has participated because it really would not have been possible without you.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  11. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    @Matsemitsu Ahhh you youngsters, keeping this old guy young.....anyway....greetings!!
     
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  12. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Hey, come to think of it...you might have been there first hand during that first critical shift from ANH to ESB, right smack in the middle of your teens.
    Do you have any recall of the view of ANH before and after ESB?

    I've heard recall from others than ANH was viewed one way prior to ESB, and then there was a bit of a knee jerk with ESB that disrupted the view of what Star Wars was about (at least to some number of people).

    Thoughts?

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  13. Matsemitsu

    Matsemitsu Clone Commander

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    Same here. A movie theater in the small village we spent our summer vacation at. They usually had movies that had been out of circulation for a while, which is why I'm guessing I must have seen it in 1984. And for Christmas Eve that year, my normally law-abiding Dad bootlegged a VHS copy of ANH and that was my first time seeing that. That crummy copy was the one I would watch pretty much every time school was on break. It didn't have the "episode IV" opening yet, which is why for years I believed that I must have missed three episodes between it and ESB, you know, "episode V". Ah, truly wonderful the mind of a child is. :)
     
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  14. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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  15. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Resident Sand Hater

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    412FC19F-3A51-4145-95AF-D6882E215A26.jpeg
    This is basically spot on for me. :D
     
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  16. Flyboy

    Flyboy Force Attuned

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    I don't expect nor want these new results to be added to the table, you've already done enough work with that. I did this mostly for me because my opinions on almost every Star Wars movie have changed in the past few months, but I figured I'd share the results anyway.

    These were the results when I first did this back in July:
    [​IMG]


    And these are the results today:
    [​IMG]

    The most noticeable thing obviously is a 4 position jump for The Rise of Skywalker. The Force Awakens has also jumped to the #1 spot. In all honesty, TFA probably should've been #2 in the original rankings but there always used to be a part of me that felt weird to put it above ANH. How I went about this was simple, when the poster for each movie popped up I imagined them as if they were blu-rays... and then I picked the one that I would rather watch, far less cerebral than the first time. I'm pretty confident and content now in saying that the ST is my favorite Star Wars.
     
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  17. TK-1204

    TK-1204 Imperial Special Forces
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    Way late to the party on all this, but I was intrigued and gave it a shot. Was honestly kind of surprised with the results, but am satisfied with them.

    upload_2020-10-2_20-56-53.png

    As a disclaimer: I don't dislike any of the films, and will happily watch any of them.
     
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  18. steakfromjakefarm

    steakfromjakefarm Rebel Trooper

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    This was hard for me, because my top 3 are pretty much tied, but otherwise it's mostly accurate.
    Star Wars Films - Result
    1. Revenge of the Sith
    2. Rogue One
    3. The Last Jedi
    4. The Rise of Skywalker
    5. Attack of the Clones
    6. Solo
    7. The Force Awakens
    8. The Empire Strikes Back
    9. A New Hope
    10. Return of the Jedi
    11. The Phantom Menace
     
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  19. Jedi Master Wysk

    Jedi Master Wysk Rebelscum

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    result.png
    The Force Awakens and Rogue One are interchangeable.
    So are The Rise of Skywalker and The Empire Strikes Back.
     
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  20. Darth Chewie

    Darth Chewie Rebel Official

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    Very accurate for me...

    Star Wars Films - Result
    1. The Empire Strikes Back
    2. The Last Jedi
    3. A New Hope
    4. Return of the Jedi
    5. Revenge of the Sith
    6. The Force Awakens
    7. The Rise of Skywalker
    8. Rogue One
    9. The Phantom Menace
    10. Solo
    11. Attack of the Clones
     
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