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OFFICIAL NEWS Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker General Movie Discussion

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Trevor, May 31, 2019.

  1. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    ^That's still not evidence that the "majority" of the Star Wars fanbase hated TLJ.

    It also doesn't even begin to measure the actual popularity of the film amongst audiences because only a very small percentage of the people who saw the film are going to have cared to go online and share their feelings on it.
     
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  2. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
    1030th Commander *** (Mod)

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    For the thousandth time: The Rotten Tomatos audience scores are garbage. We know that they were manipulated by internet trolls; we know this, RT knows this and has acknowledged as much, all y'all know this, and to keep dragging up these demonstrably faulty data is either borderline stupid or a troll move.

    For the last time, please disregard audience scores from sites with weak/non-existing voter control; and that goes for all major pop culture hallmark franchises, including SW & MCU, by the way.
     
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  3. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    This subject has been beaten to death, but every source you mention is an online poll which are easy to manipulate. Anyone can vote, multiple times, and it's not a representative sample of age/sex. The companies Hollywood uses to measure what audiences think... ComScore, PostTrak, CinemaScore are pain millions to get this stuff right. The Last Jedi scored very well when the poll was controlled for people who actually saw the movie. There were also other less known surveys done 6 months and 1 years after that showed no change in what people thought.

    No one who analyzes this stuff logically can come to any other conclusion than the movie was loved by critics and audience, but a a tiny minority really hated it. However, the internet inflates opinions especially when in regards to a huge IP like Star Wars.

    Sorry, I'll get back on topic now.
     
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  4. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I also could care less what critics say.

    My enjoyment is dictated by my opinion, not aggregate data collected by others.

    We put waaaaaay too much critical importance on the analysis of what is pretty subjective entertainment. Star Wars is great, and I absolutely do not use this in a derogatory way, but it's a popcorn flick. It has been from the beginning. Doesn't mean that we can't have greater lessons in it, but Star Wars is primarily entertainment.

    I don't need someone to tell me I'm having fun wrong.
     
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  5. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Worth noting, not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, that Metacritic is acurately sampled and weighted for critics, however it is not the same for user reviews. This is because Metacritic's critic reviews (what it was designed for) yanks multiple samples out from media sources, analyzes them for targeted elements that it then converts into a value that gets added to a pool of critic reviews that (and this is important) were not solicited or self-elected.
    So if I wanted the Cinemascore equivalent (which is the best option for theater audiences) for critics, then Metacritic is a really good choice.

    Further, if you had to pick an online source for reviews, then you want IMDB's ratings as they correctly weight the reviews coming from their reviewers, and they have tighter restrictions and requirements for users before they can make reviews, and regularly moderate their user base community (not just in reviews, but in all aspects of the services provided to their user accounts). This quite heavily deters a lot more bad actors from entering the review pool. While not a proper sample pool since users self-elect to leave a review, the good news, again, is that they bother to properly weight those reviews, so while you can't say that IMDB is a fair representation of the cross sample demographic response to a film in general, what you can say is that for fans of film in general (which is IMDB's primary target audience; not the general audience), the reviews are a good representation of the real and typical opinion of a film.

    So, in summary.
    General Audience? Cinemascore
    Critics? Metacritic (and ignore user reviews)
    Cinephiles? IMDB

    And, fin. The rest are, so far, effectively noise and garbage. Hardly better than a 4chan discussion on a film (and far less entertaining).


    Notes:
    • Cinemascore has some holes, but every sampling method has holes and its holes are fairly small, and they've been at it for a long time. The downside is...they've been at it for a long time, so innovatively moving with the times doesn't seem to be their forte, and causes room for others like ComScore to elbow in.
    • ComScore could be good, but they are a challenging resource as they are not very reader-friendly and often you can end up waiting for a media outlet to report what ComScore has collected. Compare against Cinemascore where you can simply go to the site, enter a title, and immediately see a result. ComScore is easier to see pages about their services than it is to see their results (for readers).
    • PostTalk falls into the same bundle as ComScore because ComScore now owns PostTalk, so...tomayto/tomawto.

    If you want a detailed breakdown of how we know this, see this thread right here where we analyzed all such services and broke them down in comparison.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  6. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    Going by CinemaScore's metric, The Rise of Skywalker is actually the least-liked film in the Skywalker Saga (and the least-liked live-action Star Wars film period), since it received a B+ compared to the A minuses given to all 3 films in the Prequel Trilogy (which refutes the perception that general audiences hated those movies, BTW) and Solo and the As given to The Force Awakens, Rogue One, and The Last Jedi, but said B+ rating is still indicative of an above-average positive reaction.
     
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  7. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Jedi Commander

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    My takeaway from all this is: like what you like and don't worry too much about what other people do or don't like.

    I would guess Disney/Lucasfilm have a much better idea of the reality of the situaiton than most of us do, or could. They have hard data, usually involving money, and it's part of their business to know. And also not to tell everyone else!

    I love all the Star Wars, that's what I know. :)
     
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  8. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    And I think this is pretty fair and accurate, honestly (and I love TROS, mind you).

    The reason is that TROS is a film that almost immediately demands multiple viewings to tackle what the hell you're even watching for a lot of the general audience...and not in a "What a twist!" kind of way either.

    There's just a ton of stuff flying at you constantly, and there's little time given to breath in the film. As soon as one moment happens, another picks up, and frequently before one moment has really concluded another is already picking up.

    The most infamous of this is Chewie's death, with second place going to the threat to escape run of the Falcon and subsequent damage which encompassed a few minutes of screen time, and was recouped in all costs with neck breaking speed of the next scene.

    To be fair, this is nothing new to Star Wars.
    A New Hope was repeatedly remarked upon as being far too neck breaking in speed by multiple critics of its day, and some even called it effectively a whirlwind or blender of parts salvaged from other movies and thrown together in a blur of special effects.
    And time has always been a very slippery subject in the films.
    For example...
    How long was Luke at Old Ben's? How long was Luke on Degobah? How long did it take to repair the broken hyperdrive on Queen Amadala's ship?
    [​IMG]

    Even if you, as a die hard fan (because you're on this forum), have an answer you either dug up from somewhere, or derived, the point here is the general audience...didn't get that memo.

    It's one of (out of many) reasons that I've often compared Star Wars to mythological and religious texts because one thing they all have in common that's not related to themes, mythos, or any grand concept...it's just that they are all really terrible with time being made clear.

    The difference is that when A New Hope came out, the special effects were absolutely breath taking and never before seen.
    Ever.

    Not like that. There were definitely people showing up just for the spectacle, regardless of what the story was. Don't get me wrong, the story was also a big hit for the zeitgeist of the times, but I mean...come on...no massive Beatles Mania level frenzy would have happened if the spectacle was as awesome as Logan's Run.
    Let's stay accurate here, Logan's Run was a big hit with special effects and won an award for it, but you didn't see people running out immediately to rewatch it, or dress like it.

    And while a bunch of the reason Star Wars clicked right was the special effects, it was time that made those special effects simply viscerally overpowering.
    After the exciting opening, it took a bit for the show to get moving (by today's standards, but back then...about par for the course), but once it did get moving (Mos Eisley) it rocketed moment to moment by comparison to other films of its day, and you were constantly tossed back and forth between multiple narratives in different locations that were all working over time to coalesce together in the finale.

    The whole film (thanks in large part to editing) is metaphorically a toggle back and forth between two cars that will eventually crash into each other but start out at separate parts of the city.

    There was a ton to pay attention to, and the special effects made it even more dizzying because you barely had time to reflect on the amazement of the last one before you were jerked into the next one. Even down-moments like Luke talking to Ben shoved jaw dropping moments of disbelief in the form of special effects right in your face when Luke lights up the saber.

    Shock and awe was absolutely a huge part of what made Star Wars so exciting and addicting.
    Now, Empire slowed down a lot, but it doubled down on the split narrative approach, and Jedi picked up the pace a bit and let the double narrative slack a tad.

    The prequels are...well...I would say they're hard to exactly pin down because they are somewhat impulsive - sometimes being ridiculously fast paced, while other times they wax and linger. Time expands and contracts a lot in the prequels whereas the originals mostly contracted in the first film, then expanded in the second, and contracted in the finale once again.

    TROS does a lot of the same thing as A New Hope did.
    It just rockets in a whiplash one after the other through everything with hardly any time to breath between impactful moment to impactful moment.

    In 30 years, I'm sure it will seem nothing of note and may even seem a tad slow (just based off of history).

    HOWEVER, there's one big hurdle that I think stands right in the way of this approach being as gut punching and seductive as it was for ANH....special effects.
    Today special effects are everywhere to the point that audiences are almost entirely jaded to them as a spectacle.
    If you're leaning on special effects as the sparkly thing to capture the audience today, you better have one hell of a trick up your sleeve...like...really massive.

    Because today there's this guy named Michael Bay who just basically takes the Time and Special Effects cliff's notes from Star Wars and puts them on cocaine as his go-to move for making films...which, you know...the sequel of Transformers also grabbed a B.
    Even the first one only grabbed an A out of the gate.

    The point isn't that these are crap movies or not. The point is that a part of this is surely down the fact that you can't as easily wow audiences with special effects, so if you throw a bunch on the screen and whip through scenes like a Spin-The-Apple ride piloted by existentially bored teenagers, that doesn't guarantee that shock and awe that it once did back when Star Wars (A New Hope) first hit the screens.

    Plus, now if you want to see something again as a general audience, you can just file it away as something you'll catch once it's available for streaming. There's no demand upon you to go right back to catch what you missed.

    As a result, if you slam a bunch of stuff together, and even further if a bunch of that stuff is rather nuanced references and tie-in's to things that not everyone really grasps in the general audience (pretty much all of the weight behind the lore of Palps and all the Jedi voices, or spice smuggling, as just a couple quick examples), you can easily create a sensation of the film, while being pleasant enough, was on-the-whole...well...a blur.

    And the general rating for a good blurry movie is, yeah...well...I'd say it's fair to say in the B to B+ range for a good one.

    It was a super bold move to go that route. I think, for the most part, it works, but I think for the full effect...no. It didn't.
    The full effect, for reference, is Star Wars hitting the screens for the first time.

    Trying to duplicate that approach today (as TROS so definitely does) is well...kind of turns out like what Jedi probably would be taken as today if Star Wars was only just now coming out and some other thing had done the culture shock in Star Wars' place back then.

    So, yeah...B+ makes solid sense to me. I've heard plenty of people complain about the films' pacing and lack of time to carry emotional weight through, so definitely.

    Anyway...

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #868 Jayson, May 12, 2020
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
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  9. kuatorises

    kuatorises Clone Commander

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    The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, two of the most criticized movies in the franchise, have an A- at Cinescore. Christ I did a search for The Clone Wars - the movie, not the show - just for fun. It has a B- according to Cinescore. You might want to not use that site as a source.
     
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  10. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Those scores are pretty accurate representations of the theater going general audience's opinions on opening weekend for the films. Do you really think the general audience had much more than a B+ in their experience of TROS?

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  11. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    Why? Because they don't reflect your stance on those films?

    No Star Wars movie has ever been as poorly received as some very small, yet very loud segments of the fandom want to believe or want others to believe.

    Furthermore, positive CinemaScores have translated into Box Office success for every Star Wars film other than Solo and the animated Clone Wars film, the former of which suffered because of a lack of dedicated marketing coupled with a release date just 6 months after the release of The Last Jedi, and the latter of which suffered from a lack of clarity as to what it actually was coupled with a lack of dedicated marketing.
     
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  12. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    There are over 500 members of my extended family. I also work with over 75 people in my company. I've asked them the same question. Most of them think the sequels started out great (TFA) then just got worse. Only 1 coworker I know thinks the sequels are the best. Like wise in my extended family only the younger members think the sequels are the best. Also I know this is not a scientific poll & only about half the people I know saw the sequels.
     
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  13. Oliver Hodges

    Oliver Hodges Clone Trooper

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    I really think that TRoS is the best of the sequel trilogy. However, the sequel trilogy is just bad in my opinion. I mean, Leia as a Jedi is a little out there. I think she was a better character as a soldier/diplomat. Not trying to be sexist or demeaning or anything, but Leia's traits really don't apply to jedi. That said, the sequel trilogy is just a little dull.
     
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  14. DGC

    DGC Rebel Commander

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    In Rise of Skywalker, Palpatine tells Ren, concerning Rey: “She is not who you think she is.”
    In the Force Awakens novel, when Ren sees Rey retrieve the lightsaber with the force, he says/thinks “it is you.”
    So, who did Ren think that Rey was?

    sorry if this is the wrong thread, but this has been bugging me lol
     
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  15. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend
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    Actually I've always taken it as "Oh it's you, that nasty girl that took the droid and stole my fathers piece of junk"
     
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  16. Grand Master Galen Marek

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    It was a great finale to this sequel with many memories to remember as the Original Trilogy does as well.
     
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  17. JCooper1995

    JCooper1995 Rebel General

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    Regardless of what I think of TROS as a movie or what I think of it as the ending of Star Wars...when Sheev shoots the lightning in the air, I can't help but geek out. Ian McDiarmid delivered in this one!
     
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  18. Old Jedi

    Old Jedi Rebelscum

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    As has been noted by several posters...

    There is only ONE movie rating that matters - your own.

    There are parts of TROS that I think match up with the very best of any SW movie, there are parts of TROS that I think are pretty awful. Overall I really enjoy TROS.

    I’m pretty sure they will make more SW movies and I’m also pretty sure I’ll love some of them and think others are awful. I will still love SW.
     
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  19. Grand Admiral Kraum

    Grand Admiral Kraum Force Sensitive

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    I wiped the sequel trilogy from my head canon due to TLJ (sucks because I loved TFA)

    But I have to say.. The Rise of Skywalker is severely underrated.
     
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  20. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Give just 7,9 a try as your ST canon. Pretend it was a time jump between TPM and AOTC where things happened, but happened offscreen. Leia is training Rey so Luke must have died after she trained with him. Kylo is Supreme Chancellor and meets Palpatine so one of them had to take out Snoke. There you go, you skipped Episode 8. ;)
     
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