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Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker General Movie Discussion

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Trevor, May 31, 2019.

  1. p03

    p03 Human/Cyborg Relations

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    Kylo was always meant to die

     
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  2. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Resident Sand Hater

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    My boy Ben never had a chance. ):

    upload_2021-2-5_13-52-6.png
     
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  3. Phantom Menace

    Phantom Menace Rebel General

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    Overall the movie had it’s issues but it wasn’t completely terrible. I was happy with the end to the saga and it was notably better than the previous movie TLJ, which in my opinion was horrible.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 10, 2021, Original Post Date: Feb 10, 2021 ---
    It was meant to be. It was Kylo’s time to be put to rest. But I hated the fact that they kissed before he died. Didn’t think that was a good move.
     
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  4. DarthSkywalker03

    DarthSkywalker03 Rebelscum

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    I agree but that’s just the touch of Disney magic I’m afraid. It was inevitable that there was going to be multiple kiss scenes But to me personally I think the movie could of been better and it could of been worse. I am overall satisfied with the Sequel trilogy and don’t have loads and loads of issues with them. I would only have issues with some of the carefree writing. But apart from that I think they are pretty good movies and can watch them over and over :D
     
  5. Phantom Menace

    Phantom Menace Rebel General

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    Agreed. They are all pretty good and I'm able to enjoy them. TFA is one of my favorites anyway so the sequel trilogy is good. But it's obvious that the last two movies had some issues.
     
  6. DarthSkywalker03

    DarthSkywalker03 Rebelscum

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    Yes they did for sure. I am grateful for the sequels though because they are gripping films and I think they do a lot for Star Wars even if they are controversial films !! :D
     
  7. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    I don't see the problem with the kiss. If it's ok for Admiral Nelson and his Hardy then it's ok for Ben and Rey.
     
  8. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    There's a version of the kiss where it works, but I think the moment made it bizarre. The scene asks you to switch into different emotional gears every five seconds. It's like, "Rey's dead! No wait, she's not. They're kissing?! Now Ben's dead!"
     
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  9. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    It's all the same gear for me. High.
     
  10. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel General

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  11. DarthSkywalker03

    DarthSkywalker03 Rebelscum

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    I do agree with you to be honest. I thought it would’ve made it a lot more emotionaly gripping if they just stared each other in the eye as tears flowed down there faces. Even without dialogue it would have been immense! :D
     
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  12. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    There's no win here.
    They kiss: folks talk about how it would have been better if they hadn't.
    They don't kiss: folks would have talked about how they should have.

    There are scores of folks who earnestly love the kiss and quite a number who were waiting for it.
    In one view, the ST was a massively long repressed romance tease about star crossed lovers in all the trappings of a melodrama from Shakespeare or a Jane Austen novel.

    Conversely, as many read that, they'll roll their eyes and groan as such ideas aren't anywhere on their map of interest.

    Even if the idea is that the romantic thread would have been more intense being more stoically British in tonality, all those waiting for that kiss would have been very frustrated given that, to that mind, it's somewhat like saying it would have been more intense to have not gotten a bite of the food you've been worked up to want. It would have come off as a tease without a finale, and then we'd be hearing about Abrams' "mystery box" problem from that angle.

    So there's no win.
    Either way you go with this, you're going to get it wrong and right at the same time.

    I guess the flipside way to look at it is there's no way to lose?

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  13. DarthSkywalker03

    DarthSkywalker03 Rebelscum

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    Yeah for sure I agree you can’t win with the discussion but you can’t lose because so many people love that they kissed and people also dislike it. I have said before it is part of the Disney magic as-well which is a thing of beauty in its self. I had no problem with the kiss I think it belongs in the movie period ! :D
     
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  14. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I personally just found the choice to be irresponsible and in poor taste. But that’s because I read the interrogation scene in TFA as an explicit rape allegory. So, for me, a story promoting a victim falling in love with her victimizer, without ever bothering to address the victimization, is pretty gross.

    But I guess plenty others saw something entirely different than me and didn’t have that same hang up.
     
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  15. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel General

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    The 'rape' allegory only works if she were passive. But that is not the case at all.
    But as the film goes on to show.. . Rey resists and shows her disgust and contempt for him and resists him.:


    (2:08)


    (1:57)


    And this extends into the TLJ. She only begins to change her mind about him, as she gets to know him, when they touch hands and she sees that his story is not as cut and dry as she thought. Also if you're going to compare TFA interrogation scene as a rape allegory, you would also have to say that Rey raped Kylo. Since Rey also invaded Kylo's mind as well. And it would have applicable to all other characters who have used that force power throughout SW.
     
    #915 Veronica, Feb 11, 2021
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  16. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Struggling against your attacker means you haven’t been victimized? That’s a rather bewildering and horrifying interpretation.
    Yes, he’s someone who feels he himself was once a victim. That’s how he’s able to justify his predatory behavior to himself. Her sympathy to that genesis makes sense enough. “To forgive is divine”, as they say.
    He didn’t simply “invade her mind”. He stalked her. Terrorized her. Incapacitated her. Abducted her. Bound her in a windowless basement. THEN he invaded her mind - in order to forcefully take something from her she didn’t consent to. “You know I can take whatever I want." “And now you'll give it to me."

    And what motivation is given for his desire to dominate? “You're afraid that you will never be as strong as Darth Vader.” Yep, fear of inadequacy and impotence. The chief motivator most commonly attributed to victimizers. They feel powerless in their own lives and so they exert power over others in order to compensate.

    I get it if you don’t view the same material the way I do, but can you honestly not see where I’m coming from here?
     
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  17. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I think it's dangerous to take our sensibilities of cultural noramlities into a melodramatic epic.

    Almost all of Shakespeare is a vile defilement of our sensibilities today, but we still watch these incredibly screwed up situations by our standards as if they're sacred in quality - when in fact, they're very well crafted smut by our standards today. If you made a modern version of what he was doing, and I don't mean prancing around all ninny with a modern styling (*stares are Baz Luhrmann*), but actually created the kind of thing he was writing - you'd be looking at something like an R rated Star Wars where you not only are right that he rapes her, but that she's fighting him back in some twisted manner by seducing him to the light side, having sex with him, and taking his essence of life during sex as her revenge, which she then uses to go kill her grandfather now that she has the power of the good and the dark raging inside of her.

    Oh, and she would actually still love him - even though she killed him by sucking out his essence during sex, and he would realize what she's doing and go with it out of guilt and shame. Shakespeare's some f'd up stuff that makes any melodramatic epic extremely screwed.

    Anywho, the point was that melodramatic epics are anything but sensible.
    So that translates two ways: 1) probably don't read "rape scene" if you think you see one unless someone explicitly yells "RAPE" in a melodramatic epic and 2) even if it were a rape scene and someone said a line that reads as "rape", I wouldn't *looks - * consider *- over -* that * - at - * out of * - Luke & Leia - * line * - kissing - *. Melodramas are screwed up family dramas that have some real odd crap in them - crap that doesn't make sense when you break it down to what a person would really do emotionally and morally. Almost all of the Greek epics are just really screwed up...the story of Oedipus leaps to the forefront.

    The only thing Star Wars doesn't give us is a Greek style ending (well...and it's kind of playing in the kiddy side of the pool by Greek epic standards of "hardcore" crap happening).
    We're always getting a YIPPIE! ending and to be honest, that's what makes it really, really rare. Melodramatic epics don't have happy endings. Soap operas don't have happy endings. Sagas don't (usually) have happy endings.

    But Star Wars does.

    In all reality, the more I've studied and considered things over my life regarding Star Wars, the more I see it as a sci-fa Jane Austen story than a sci-fa Greek epic.

    Think about it? Jane Austen's stories are about people in families who have to come to terms with their place in esteemed lineages while figuring out their own self and mind, while also struggling to hold onto, repair, or make a relationship with another character who is either an antagonist they find is actually endeared, or a friend whom they find is actually to be poised at odds with them.

    That's...Star Wars. If ever I've heard of anything being Star Wars, that's...Star Wars.
    Jane Austen ... "IN SPACE!"

    Which...um...well...Austen *clears throat* doesn't have *quote* rape *quote*...
    She has, and I am quoting here, "power-assertive seduction that people in the twenty-first century would call rape" - (Jane Austen Society of North American).

    Oh...yeah...I can totally see how "power-assertive seduction" is different than "rape".
    6ccedb434eb65daeef32600a97df37a4.gif

    Either way you look at it - point is - people in melodramas do things that make us squirm in our seats.

    It ain't going to come out pretty.
    I mean...my read of things was that regardless of the rape interpretation or not, the idea of Rey having any love for Ben is F***ED UP.
    There isn't a world where I would teach my daughters that that kind of relationship is healthy or to be admired in anyway at all!

    It's about the most toxic of relationships, even if they never get romantic. Just the way he treats her - even if they were only pals by the end, teaming up to kill a bad man and then Ben died - oh sad - and nothing ever sexualized happened.

    It's just a really F'd up relationship. Same thing with Luke, really. That relationship with his Father is F'd up! For that matter, Han and Leia's is pretty screwed up.
    "I love you" "I know"?
    Go F*** yourself buddy! Grow a pair and become a real man who can actually commit and say I love you! And stop negging each other all over the place - try being supportive for once!

    Anyway, yeah - I don't think anyone should look at Star Wars as a shining example of how people should have relationships with other humans.
    These people are archetypes that represent ideas that we think are worth noting, but the actual way they treat each other....not so much.

    Kind of the same deal with Jane Austen.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #917 Jayson, Feb 11, 2021
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  18. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    That’s precisely why Star Wars exists in the first place though. It’s a morality tale intended to convey lessons of ethics and philosophy that George Lucas wanted to impart to impressionable youths. A more cynical minded individual wouldn’t be wrong in labeling it ‘propaganda’.

    The views presented in the films are absolutely intended as didactic and promoting a particular world view. I’m really not sure how anyone could argue the opposite. He’s outright said this. The resolutions we see in character and situation are to be seen as endorsements by the storytellers. That’s the point. The young audience is absolutely supposed to view the exploits, what lessons the characters learned, and then put them into practice in their own lives.
    Me either. But it’s about compassion. Like the injured snake she encounters in the cave. It’s a fairly straight forward metaphor. The snake is absolutely a threat - a real danger. But it’s only truly vicious because it’s secretly hurting. Her approach isn’t to match violence with violence, but to recognize its pain and heal it. That’s the dynamic (I feel dumb using ‘dyad’ now) between them. He’s striking out in pain and she’s trying to heal the underline wounds rather than strike back. I think it’s a beautiful sentiment.

    When that starts to cross streams with romantic affection though, and compassion becomes confused with amorous, that’s when I have to step back. That’s when it gets muddy and icky for me. I just can’t advocate that message.
     
    #918 eeprom, Feb 11, 2021
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  19. Veronica

    Veronica Rebel General

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    And I also find it bewildering and horrifying that you equate Ren’s invasion of Rey’s mind as an allegory to rape which is defined as:


    unlawful sexual intercourse or any other sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object, without the consent of the victim. An act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation:


    None of this happened in the film. Also if you are going to start equating Ren’s invasion of Rey’s mind to sexual assault. Then that should be applicable to all instances in SW where that has happened.







    In what film or source material does Ren justify his actions?


    Yes it would, since she probably sympathizes with him given the fact that she knows exactly what being rejected and mistreated feels like. And how it can cause people not behave well or nicely.



    And indeed it is . Which is a theme of much of the ST, that people make mistakes and they can correct them. And the wrong that people do is not always attributed to lack of character.


    He did the exact same thing to Poe. Is this rape as well?





    I honestly don’t understand what you’re talking about. I thought that the context of the scene and the exchange was pretty clear:



    Ren is trying to get information on where the map is and interrogates Rey ( Which he also did to Poe). Then there is a brief exchange about each of their deepest fears. Trying to present his tactics as evidence of pure evil does not help, given the fact that the Jedi have done the same

    Yes. I get it that you don’t like Kylo Ren and are angry that your hero Finn didn’t get prime billing. Which is fine. But sticking to the context/facts of the film and not colouring it with your own personal prejudices or hyperbole to make a point helps.

    But that’s up to you. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
    Thank you.
     
    #919 Veronica, Feb 11, 2021
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  20. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I never said otherwise.
    I said that you probably shouldn't take your world view into a melodramatic epic.
    I didn't say you shouldn't take the melodramatic epic's world view out of it and examine how it makes you think about life.

    For instance, you saw a melodramatic epic's relationship between two juxtaposed characters who repeatedly contest each other in diametric manners which hyperbolically positions softness against harshness and you walked out of that and thought about how much you despise rape and could never agree with someone becoming intimate with someone who raped them.

    That's not what the story said.
    That's what you read of it.

    What the story said was that a split-personality of the forces of nature (Dyad of the Force) fought with itself repeatedly and hurt itself repeatedly until it forgave itself, saved itself from death and darkness, and embraces itself.

    That's what was shown because the show made them a Dyad, which they explain as being two parts of a whole - a central point in the Force.

    That's not the same thing as two people falling for each other in a rape relationship. Not even close. How do we even begin to comprehend the concept of a Dyad kissing itself?

    We're basically talking about the Holy Ghost beating up, hauling around, interrogating, and trying to kill Jesus and then the two joining up to beat Satan and then Jesus and the Holy Ghost kissing each other afterwards as the Holy Ghost dies ... but not really because there's this other dimension of reality and it went there-ish sort of and so they're really not torn apart or anything, and actually since they're really two parts of a holy duo mono-personality, they never really were apart to begin with.

    It's like looking at that and saying we're looking at a rape scene because the Holy Ghost crawled inside the mind of Jesus against his will.
    I'm not saying that mental invasion can't be representative of sexual violation - it most certainly can do that.
    But when you're talking about two halves of the same person - Tyler Durden and "Jack" - what exactly is the definition here?

    You kind of get into the weird position that Christianity gets into with God, Jesus, and the crucifixion where because of the whole triune thing, you get a logical result of God birthing himself to kill himself to save people from himself while begging himself to free himself from the plight of dying a death he won't remain dead from.

    I mean...the Dyad is one in the same person in the Force, like Christianity's Holy Trinity where "Three in one".

    So...the Dyad raped itself?

    That's more translatable than the forces of nature fought and hurt itself repeatedly until it forgave itself for who it had become (Ben), and who it had been (Rey) and saved itself from death and darkness, which it then found lead to the ability to love and embrace itself in spite of its own evil, because in itself it found there was still good?

    I think it's interesting that your idea of compassion has a stopping point.

    That said, I find it a bit hard to convey compassion when we're talking about two people who are part of the same person. I guess there's "compassion for the self", but I don't think that's as big of a message as "forgive your darkness; don't fear or hate them".

    Which I see the main thrust as being - not compassion.

    Compassion is what you have in Dr. Who repeatedly beaten as the thematic drum - he's not making out with his enemies, or having intimate touchy moments that cause Hammill to exclaim that they got the closest thing to a sex scene in Star Wars when they touched hands. He's not helping because people have good left in them - he gives people a choice between two options (with neither usually being death) rather than just killing them because he's adamant to a fault that every life deserves its right to live and is only mistaken in its venture with life, rather than being evil.

    If Rey and Ben - since they are one in the same - walked out and gave Palpsy an option to live when they openly had the upper hand and in spite of all of Palpsy's sins, did so...that would be compassion.

    Failing to be able to resist helping the other person who is Force genetically connected to you as a cosmic other half of our soul?
    I can't see that as compassion.

    That's becoming OK with darkness rather than running from it or trying to carve it out from yourself. Accepting that it's there and moving on to become better in spite of it.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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