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Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker General Movie Discussion

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Trevor, May 31, 2019.

  1. Lord Phanatic

    Lord Phanatic Vader's Black Squadron
    1030th General **** (Mod)

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    That first shot of Palpatine. I was like......yea definitely forced. Horrible. Nothing refreshing or surprising. He looked less like Palpatine and more like a zombie from the walking dead. The clone excuse? Poorly executed. Hated it.
    The fight between Ben and the knights of ren? Absolutely lame. The knights of ren were one of my biggest let downs of the trilogy. So much potential thrown in the trash.
    Finn. Wow. Such an original character. Ex stormtrooper turned good who may be or not be force sensitive......such a tease that led absolutely nowhere. He could have began a stormtrooper rebellion which would have been amazing if it we're written by.............yea . I could go on and on which is in itself a shame.
     
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  2. p03

    p03 Human/Cyborg Relations

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    Ben vs Knights of Ren was complete Marvel and not just Marvel, bad Marvel. Worst action scene of the whole trilogy.
     
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  3. risastór

    risastór Clone Trooper

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    -
    Disclaimer- NOT a huge star wars guy, saw the original in 77 as an 8 year old boy, was memorized, saw empire strikes back and was captivated, loved the hot headed Luke's journey, his trial, set backs and was still pretty cool, return of the jedi was meh, was a teen by that release and just did not hit the same.
    the re release was meh, i did not mind most of the re tooling, but han shot 1st

    the prequels were awful, laughably bad, problem with prequels or origin stories, no suspense, no matter how awful the scrape hey put characters in, you know they survive because you have sen the movies that come later.

    I absolutely love Daisey Ridley as an actress and bear that in mind as we delve forward. She deserved better and I do not blame her AT ALL for the utter mess the 3 sequels were. That was writing thing not an acting thing .

    The force awakens, not original, poor idealistic kid on a desolate sand box, yearning for more, by chance got mixed up in adventures that almost followed a new hope exactly. Rey a non trained scavenger easily defeated a guy trained in the force and fighting, per the cannon al jedi's need training and trial and error to hone their mastery of the force, not rey, she discovered she had the force and was instantly THE most powerful force user ever, and therefore did not need training, and was never really in any jeopardy. The male characters were all bumbling idiots and Ford looked like he'd rather havea colonoscopy performed by captain hook than be there.
    the other 2 movies were even worse.


    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 15, 2021, Original Post Date: Mar 15, 2021 ---
    --
    100%
     
    #963 risastór, Mar 15, 2021
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2021
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  4. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    Thread bump.

    I started watching The Skywalker Legacy documentary last night and go about halfway through it before I absolutely had to stop and get some sleep, and it reinforced two things:
    2) I should've been less harsh on J.J. Abrams back in 2014 and 2015 because he absolutely gets everything that makes Star Wars what it is even if he doesn't always verbally convey the depth of that understanding
    2) I should have stayed away from spoilers for TRoS ahead of its release because doing so would have made my first viewing of it and my appreciation of its narrative choices all the more impactful had I not known about them beforehand and formed preconceptions about them

    TRoS remains my favorite Star Wars film - period - and my favorite installment of the Sequel Trilogy, and I will forever lament my own lack of willpower and the way I got sucked into - and contributed to - the whirlpool of toxic fandom behavior both in 2014 and 2015 and prior to TRoS' release because it tainted the level to which I should have appreciated both JJ Abrams' individual contributions to the Sequel Trilogy and the way the overall narrative scope of the trilogy ultimately unfolds.
     
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  5. Crusifix

    Crusifix Rebel Official

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    There was no plan, and we were left with a mess.
     
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  6. Viper78

    Viper78 Rebel Official

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    There was a huge amount of pressure on JJ Abrams to reintroduce Star Wars especially after the Prequel Trilogy and I for one think he did a fine job. I loved TFA and although there were a few things about it that could have been changed (Starkiller base, Rey meeting Luke at the end of TFA) there was nothing that stopped my enjoyment of this film which I currently have 4th on my list behind the OT.

    The main issue with the ST was how quickly it was made, had they taken more time and released films every 3 years instead of 2 then perhaps JJ Abrams might have been involved in the writing of Episode 8 and originally Episode 9 instead of being burnt out after TFA and not wanting to go straight into Episode 8 without a break. Not having JJ involved in the writing for Episode 8 and continuing his vision hurt the ST badly.
     
    #966 Viper78, Jul 6, 2021
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  7. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Lawrence Kasdan contributed a good bit to TFA. I'm curious how things would have developed if he'd stayed on.
     
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  8. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    JJ signed on for one film only. He had no intention of doing episode VIII. The episodes after TFA were not supposed to be his vision (until he came back for IX following Carrie's death and Treverrow's departure).

    However he was still executive producer of VIII. So it's not like he was completely disinterested in it. The deal was always that the next director makes their movie. Not that the next guy makes JJ's movie or makes his movie from JJ's vision. TLJ for me is a great follow up to TFA. I guess I wasn't trying to pre-empt what the follow up to JJ's film should be.
     
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  9. Viper78

    Viper78 Rebel Official

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    I'd forgotten about Kasdan, I agree it would have been great if he had stayed on but I think the lure of Solo would have ruled him out.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 6, 2021, Original Post Date: Jul 6, 2021 ---

    It is true that JJ only signed for one film, but was that due to the trilogies intense release schedule and the reason why they went down the route of having a different director for each film? I'm sure I saw an interview around the time of TFA release that he said he was done with the trilogy due to being burnt out making TFA. Realistically with the 2 year gap between films he would have had to begin Episode 8 while finishing TFA so I can't blame him for not wanting to take that on.

    I suppose it depends if you think the ST was a success or not, I didn't and I think having a 3 year gap, more time with JJ more involved in the writing Episode 8 would have been better.
     
    #969 Viper78, Jul 6, 2021
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  10. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Story goes: he was burnt out after two consecutive and demanding Star Trek movies. He wanted to take a break from blockbusters when Kennedy brought Episode 7 to him. He made an exception basically. There’s no indication he was offered to captain the whole trilogy. But if he was in a different place at the time . . . maybe so.
    It was always the deal to fill the Hindenburg with hydrogen. Maybe not such a good idea in retrospect though :D
     
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  11. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    It seemed to be working fabulously until they got close to their destination.
     
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  12. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    ^ When viewed objectively, there's absolutely nothing wrong with intending each film in the Sequel Trilogy to have a distinct directorial direction and individual narrative crafted largely independently.
     
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  13. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    [​IMG]
    Some things, are just not meant to be....​
     
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  14. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    While I completely and utterly disagree with you on TROS, I'm glad you enjoy the film and that it's your favorite of the ST.

    I always say that TFA was good for the franchise and an incredibly clever (if not genius) move, but bad for the story now that we see the full picture. Going through the Hero's Journey allowed new fans to experience the joys of the classic Star Wars tale, while also giving it a new twist with new characters. The characters and the feelings of nostalgia can be the focus for older fans also.

    But it's bad for the story since TFA basically had to do a hard reset on the story of Star Wars so far in order to function. It's not necessarily the same as Aliens 3 and killing off Newt (spoilers I guess), but it's not too different either.

    True, but there's a difference between what looks good on paper and what looks good when put in action. Honestly, ideas and stories are pretty cheap. How well they turn out depends the skill of the storyteller and successfully they can convey said ideas. That's why some writers fail, or some successful writers get criticized for their prose.* It's not the story in question, but rather the skill of the writer. The same goes for the ST round-robin sort of storytelling. Yeah, on paper it sounds fantastic and fun for the creators and exciting for the audience...but then the reality that you have no true control of where the story goes before you or after you sets in, and that can lead to dissonance if the two aren't seen as handled well by the audience.

    There was nothing wrong with Kennedy's idea to have that sort of "passing of the baton" style of directing...until the films themselves came out...and we saw how well Marvel succeeded when they didn't do that.**

    Heck, in many ways, Kennedy's idea weirdly has had the opposite effect of Lucas' PT. For the PT, the story and intent are appreciated, even if the movies themselves aren't seen as good. (YMMV on this.) Meanwhile, JJ and RJ's movies can be seen as good, bad, or otherwise, but the intent behind the change of directors is a point of criticism, not praise at the attempt. These differences may boil down to consistency, or may simply be a byproduct of sexism within the fandom in all honesty, but I'm just here to point it out, not pinpoint what it is.

    But the ST, like the PT, will be subject to time. Maybe - and I truly hope - this will help soften the hearts of fans towards the ST, including my own. Maybe someday, we'll get a few good television shows around the ST time frame that help reconstruct and retextualize our view of the ST itself, not unlike Clone Wars and The Clone Wars (and now The Bad Batch) did for the PT.


    *Like how I felt when I tried Twilight, or how my friend felt about The Way of Kings. (Now, to be fair to her, she primarily reads children's literature since that's the field she wants to write in, and her dad's negative feelings towards Mistborn didn't help. Epic Fantasy also isn't her thing, so she's not going to feel positively about something that doesn't function in the same vein when it doesn't live up to the hype in her mind.)

    **And granted, the opposite spectrum of planning everything out doesn't always succeed either. Snyder's DC movies were more or less all planned out post-Man of Steel, and that did not go as intended.
     
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  15. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    Two things:
    1) Letting individual storytellers come in and offer their own largely independent contributions to an ever-unfolding narrative is how the majority of the Legends EU was created

    2) The notion that the Sequel Trilogy should have been narratively structured like the MCU is a fallacious one
     
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  16. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    And do you remember how utterly complicated and annoying and how contradictory the Legends EU got at times? Films and books are separate franchises. Treating them the same is a fallacious thing to do. Books go through levels of revisions in which other authors can beta-read or see changes in order to modify their own work. It's easier to change a line or character motive in a book in relation to another book than it is to schedule a second round of reshoots, change entire set-pieces and dialogue, cut characters, and move whole arcs. One is a part of the process, the other is a logistical nightmare.

    Not to mention that the Legends EU could have different layers of canon, something that the Disney Era has gone out of its way to avoid. Heck, the whole High Republic Era has been planned with a beginning, middle, and end, as if to prevent it from ending up like the ST.

    Some of the Rebels Recon videos actually talk about the time-lag between movies and shows, and books. Two specific points come to mind:
    The first has to do with Hera's father's characterization. In the book Lords of the Sith, Cham is a hardened rebel and leader. He's an extremist. However in Rebels, Cham is a lot softer of a character, leading to fans questioning the difference.* Filoni talks about how the show's dialogue and animation is done so far in advance that the book came out before the two could be reconciled.

    The second time is with K2-SO and his whole line of droids' design. There was a design used in Rebels for the same type of droid, but was different. Filoni talked about how if he had known about the design used in Rogue One, he would have incorporated it into his show.



    As for the second point, the MCU is one of the few comparable franchises to Star Wars. They're peers in a lot of ways now, despite the generation gap. It's not bad to look at one and say "how did they get that right, when we messed up?" or "how did we get this right when they messed up?" It's called learning from others. Besides, I made an asterisk about how planning doesn't always work out, just in case you missed it. The ST's biggest problem isn't the different directors, but the feeling of consistency as a whole. The PT, despite all of its flaws, feels consistent. The OT, despite all of the behind-the-scenes trials and troubles, feels consistent. The ST does not feel consistent within itself. Yes, TFA and TLJ flow together, but then TLJ takes everything that TFA stood for and breaks it down. And then TROS comes along and retcons TLJ (and parts of TFA) in order to tell its own story.* (Not to mention walking back on character beats in order to do its own thing.**) Even if this was planned - which, we know from RJ's comments on how the trilogy was out of his hands post-TLJ, Trevorrow's treatment leaks, and Daisy Ridley's own words on Rey's heritage - it didn't feel planned, and that's the most important part.

    But if you don't want to look at the MCU, we can also go with the Fast & Furious franchise. It's had five directors, nine movies, and has been around for over twenty years at this point. It's seen actors come and go, its genre change, and has had a lead actor die in the middle of filming, something that even Star Wars didn't have to deal with. But it's still doing fine, despite all of that. And even if F9 has had a fractured reception, it will still be in fine shape for the final two movies...of which F9 is a sort of prequel or first part to, because they sat down, talked about the ending of the franchise, and how to get there. Not to mention that the actors know where there character is going to go in any which installment. Vin and Co have long - as in multiple hour-long - chats with their directors about the motivations, struggles, and directions of their characters. You don't hear about JJ sitting down with his actors and hashing out the story. They somehow do the "found family" theme far better than Star Wars has ever done it.

    If the MCU has been super successful at something I think Star Wars could learn from, then I'll mention it and compare when and potentially how to do that. Likewise, if and when Star Wars does something that the MCU (or the superhero genre as a whole) should learn from...like, say, how to have actually good animated shows that flesh out the universe nowadays...then I'll mention it.

    I guess to tie this all up, the changing in directors to me is exciting not because I want them to tell a story that the other parts don't have control over, but because I get excited to see how they tell that story. Get the ideas solid beforehand - that's the easy part. Then excite me with how you share them.


    *The same actually happened with Saw Gerrera too. I think for him it was chalked up to "he isn't as hard of a character yet," but even that doesn't fly given his characterization in Jyn Erso's YA book.
    *Retcons as a trope aren't bad. Vader being retconned to be Anakin Skywalker is one of the best ones out there. But they, like any plot twist or recontextualization, should be used to add to the story, not take away something else from it.
    **And just for fun, let's do an MCU comparison of one specific point:
    In TLJ, Kylo breaks his helmet, kills Snoke in a shocking betrayal, and then becomes the Supreme Leader. In doing so, he is not only the Big Bad, but also has done what Anakin when he first became Vader couldn't do, in overthrowing Palpatine and taking control of an empire. Within the first few minutes of TROS, Kylo has regressed. He's being subservient to Palpatine and rebuilding his shattered helmet. But why this is the case, and what consequences this entails aren't brought up.
    At the end of Iron Man 3, Tony Stark has given up being Iron Man and is ready to settle down with Pepper. Come Avengers: Age of Ultron, he's Iron Man again without any explanation. However, in Captain America: Civil War, it's then explained that Pepper left Tony because Tony couldn't stop being Iron Man. There was always another excuse, another fight, another battle...and it wore on her and him. And then the movie factors in the lack of Pepper's presence (and more importantly, Tony's guilt, trauma, and backstory) into the current storyline.
    Or, if you want, we can look at F9. F9 introduces Jakob Toretto, little brother to our main hero Dominic Toretto, as the Big Bad. He has accomplices, but answers to himself and no one else. But in introducing him, we get an expanded understanding of the Toretto family, and a closer look at Dom's past, including the day his father died, to his time in jail, to his relationship with the prodigal brother.

    And even with Jakob as the Big Bad, they still find a way to put him in the "you are forgiven and potentially redeemed" category, without sacrificing his characterization.
     
  17. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Yeah. But when viewed through the various notions of ownership that fans tend to hold it..... Uh oh. Here come the waterworks. ;)
     
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  18. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    I disagree.

    A lot of the arguments you present here have been disproven by JJ, Rian, and others directly involved with the production of the Sequel Trilogy, as well as by official BtS documentation as presented in various forms.

    I would also question the wisdom of bringing up Colin Treverrow's ideas for where to take Episode IX given two key factors:
    1) Based on the need for Star Wars to appeal to more than just the established fanbase, there is little chance that the proposed script that leaked onto the Internet several months ago would have actually went into production as submitted

    2) His inability to create a workable story following Carrie's death, even though he was given months in which to do so and was even given assistance from prolific screenwriter and playwright Jack Thorne

    The Sequel (or Age of Resistance) Trilogy cannot be judged based on what-ifs and what was done with other franchises, and must be judged solely on how it ultimately unfolded based on the evidence available to us both in terms of what was presented onscreen and what has been presented to us in terms of BtS materials and creator comments, and when judged based solely on said evidence, its overall level of consistency is on par with that of the Age of Republic (Prequel) and Age of Empire (Original) Trilogies even though it was approached in a much different fashion, creatively, than either of those Trilogies.
     
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  19. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I solidly disagree in terms of consistency, especially when it comes to TROS. That's where the real crux of this lies, btw. TFA and TLJ are internally consistent, if not a little jarring to many fans. But TROS actively goes out of its way to reverse things in TLJ. Again, Snoke's entire purpose, Kylo's whole arc, and Rey's backstory. All of these are backtracked on for unexplained and undefined reasons.

    Kylo was set up in TFA to be an anti-Luke and anti-Vader, and in TLJ he ended up succeeded where Vader failed. Rey was set up to be someone special, and then it turned out she wasn't - her journey of finding herself and her place was over, and she was free to move onto a different arc. Finn was set up as the one who needed a purpose to fight for. In TLJ he gains it. In TROS, he's going around screaming Rey's name.

    In TFA and TLJ Rey is one who is looking for family, someone to take her away from her solitude and loneliness. At the end of TROS, she's walking alone, yet again. In a movie trilogy all about found family, actively forsaking those who found you and chased after you at the end doesn't jive with the overall arc. The idea that family doesn't make you who you are in TLJ is ultimately thrown out with the idea that family is the source of all of your problems.

    All of these were things set up and explored in TFA and TROS, and then they were thrown out in TROS. It's not consistent because JJ wasn't ever planning on making it such. His plans ended after TFA. He had no idea of what to do next, nor did he really care. RJ took the reigns, and then left it off to a third person.

    @DigificWriter this will be my last reply on this thread for now, not because I don't have more to say, but because I don't want to rain on your TROS parade too much, and I've reached my personal quota in the ST trilogy forums. Please reply if you so desire, as I will read it, but I won't reply back here.
     
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  20. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    My question has always been about the Sequel Trilogy, how does it connect with 1-6 and make them better? I actually think 7,8,9 are well made movies, as quality is not my problem with them. I also agree with you that 'what if' is not an argument about them, as what is on screen is up for debate.

    My problem is I watch 7,8,9 and they really don't add anything new to 1-6 from a big picture perspective macro story. I have many issues with 1,2,3 in terms of execution (we all have debated the flaws), but they do connect with 4-6 and make the macro story 1-6 much better, especially Palpatine's arc. I like the small things in the ST like The Dyad, Force Balance, even 'Good guys bad guys, it's all a machine' quote in TLJ. The problem is none of them are developed in a big story fashion that makes 1-6 or essentially 1-9 better. I always like to hear different perspectives as maybe 1-9 connects for you, but I'm still struggling to connect the ST.
     
    #980 Jedi77-83, Jul 8, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2021
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