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Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker General Movie Discussion

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Trevor, May 31, 2019.

  1. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    Although I'm not trying to change people's minds and probably won't, one of the things that works for me about the Age of Resistance Trilogy is that it's about legacies. Every character in the trilogy has to grapple with the question of legacy in some fashion, - especially its two 'mythic protagonists' Rey and Ben Solo (and, yes, Ben is a co-protagonist throughout all 3 films in the trilogy even though he's initially presented as being antagonistic and hostile towards his co-protagonist Rey and other characters) - and the entire story itself is predicated on legacy since the First Order is quite literally the legacy of the Empire in more ways than one.
     
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  2. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I think that’s a lovely place to come from. I just wish the trilogy had foregrounded and resolved that concept a bit more. I mean, why did the New Republic fail? Why did the New Jedi fail? Why did Luke fail? Dogma? Hubris? Fear? They didn’t learn from the mistakes of the past and so repeated them . . . I guess?

    Has this new generation succeeded where the previous two failed? Did they learn a new/better way forward? It doesn’t really seem like it. Things are mostly in the same relative place they were 30 years prior. A net-zero gain.

    The sequel trilogy is certainly interested in the weight of legacy and the struggle of reconciling that burden. And that’s a truly engaging thread to follow. But it’s not very conscious of the new casts’ own legacy. Have they left the galaxy in a better place than they found it? Is there any reason for us to expect the ending of TROS to be any more impactful than the ending for ROTJ?
     
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  3. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Jedi Commander

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    Sometimes for me I think part of the problem and maybe the mistake with TROS was trying to position and market it as the conclusion of the whole saga. I'm not really sure when that happened, but my memory is that it all began sometime after TLJ. But I went into this trilogy treating it like just some new extra episodes of stuff which happens after the main saga was over - an expanded universe in movie form - a just 'what happens next' bolt-on series of movies.

    Of course, I understood that Disney wanted to capture the old idea of Lucas's third trilogy in his trilogy of trilogies, and even went as far as resurrecting his additional three standalone movies idea as well, but I saw that all as just marketing to capture our imaginations and reignite the excitement of that original idea, as if it was still the plan all along!

    But I saw that as a red herring, and I went into the start of the ST seeing it not so much as the FINAL trilogy in the saga, but rather the FIRST trilogy in what I thought - or hoped - would be Disney moving forward into a new era with the story. But then TROS came along and it felt like it just tried just a little too hard to be the big, explosive finale to the whole series.

    Basically, I think I would have preferred if they had just focused on at least concluding the third episode in their three part story, instead of trying to make it the ninth and final part of the series and the conclusion of the saga as a whole. I felt that was done already in ROTJ. Lucas's saga was over in episode VI. The ST ought to have been Disney's new beginning.

    But I don't know - maybe it already is everything I think it should have been, and I just fell for the marketing...
     
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  4. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    @eeprom We don't need to know what led to the New Republic's fall within the context of the story being told, not just within the Age of Resistance Trilogy itself, but also with regards to the Skywalker Saga as a whole, because that's not the point of the story being told.

    When taken as a whole, the overall theme of the Age of Resistance Trilogy - and its place in the overall Skywalker Saga - is legacy and how characters both define and are defined by that word and concept.

    @Too Bob Bit The Episodic Films of Star Wars (AKA The Skywalker Saga) are George Lucas' films; expecting a direct continuation of said films - and especially a continuation launched by George himself - not to perpetuate the format and conceits of said films and ultimately resolve the narrative begun by said films is a bit strange.
     
  5. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Of course it is. What led the Republic to become the Empire is the same thing that led the Jedi to become extinct and Anakin to become Vader. They’re variations on the same theme - each complementing and reinforcing one another. The good of the Republic survived in the Rebellion and is redeemed with the foundation of the New Republic just as the Jedi and Anakin are survived and redeemed through Luke.

    All three are corrupted and then redeemed in the same arc within George’s six part story. That’s not a coincidence. It’s a deliberate commentary: The macro and the micro are all connected.
    To what end though? Legacy for legacy’s sake alone is blisteringly shallow in the big picture. The original trilogy was about how a new generation, having grown up in the wake of the catastrophic decisions of the previous, had to right those wrongs and restore equilibrium. That was THEIR inherited legacy. The prequel trilogy was about providing context for how that previous generation had made those ill-fated decisions - to articulate the importance of what the new generation was doing in contrast to them.

    The sequel trilogy is about how, regardless of their best efforts, that new generation ultimately made similar errors, suffered the same consequences and must themselves be redeemed by a new new generation. As a whole, the entire saga is about ‘legacy’. The ST doesn’t have a monopoly on that word and concept. So what then is it really saying with respect to what came before? Are they just going to, in turn, make those same mistakes and then a new new new generation will have to intercede? What progress has been made exactly?
     
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  6. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    In my opinion, the Age of Republic Trilogy, thematically, is about failure; the Age of Rebellion Trilogy is about redemption; and the Age of Resistance Trilogy is about legacy.
     
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  7. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I don’t know, man. Saying that the ST is about ‘legacy’ is sort of like saying dessert is about ‘food’. Isn’t the whole meal about ‘food’? Isn’t the whole saga about ‘legacy’?

    The first movie has the hero inherit his father’s sword and a tradition over a thousand generations old. It has the heroine sent on a mission by her father to recruit a legendary general. It makes the villain a wayward student desperate to prove he’s surpassed his former teacher. Legacy, and its associated burdens, was baked into the recipe from the start. That’s not something new the ST brought to the table.

    What makes it especially resonant now though is the paratextual and metatextual implications. Behind the scenes, the people making these movies are themselves inheritors of a legacy. They’re fans, who grew up with these stories, picking up where their heroes left off and trying their damndest to do it proper justice while making it their own.

    Similarly, the audience is also experiencing a version of this. Children, who grew up with this franchise, are adults now and have their own children that are growing up on it. It’s generational inheritance. Star Wars has become a legacy itself. It’s life reflecting art reflecting life. That perspective positions the theme as much more poignant, since it's mirroring our own experience, but really it’s not that distinct from what was there all along.

    Or not. I don't know. I'm just blathering at this point :)
     
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  8. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel Official

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    Yes, the argument can be made that the entire Skywalker Saga is, on some level, about legacy, but with the Age of Resistance Trilogy and the conflict with the First Order, the theme of legacy is explicitly and overtly tied to every single character and the plotlines of every individual film.

    A few quick examples:
    * The First Order is both overtly and clandestinely the legacy of the Empire. Not only do its primary representatives in all 3 films - Hux, Phasma, and General Pryde - have direct legacy connections to the old Empire either by blood, service, or iconography, it was directly puppeteered by the Emperor through its Supreme Leader for years in secret

    * Finn, Rose, and Jannah represent and are first-hand evidence of the Empire and First Order's legacy of oppression, with Finn and Jannah having had their pasts and legacy literally stolen from them and Rose's planet and parents having been literally destroyed because of the First Order and its stated goal of restoring and surpassing the Empire's legacy

    * Rey and Ben's entire lives are shaped by legacy. Rey's parents strand her on Jakku in the hopes of protecting and hiding her from the legacy of the Dark Side, the Sith, and the Empire, and Ben's fears about living up to the legacy of his family - on both the Light Side and the Dark Side - are the direct cause and effect of his fall and redemption. Rey also gets to write her own legacy in the end through her connection to the Force and to Ben and those who love him

    I could keep going, but I think these examples are sufficient to illustrate how and why the theme of legacy is specifically relevant to the Age of Resistance Trilogy as well as being generally present in and applicable to the Skywalker Saga as a whole.
     
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  9. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I just want to say that in 2021, I was still hurting from TROS being what it is. But several of the Marvel things released that year (as if it wasn't just last week) helped heal those wounds.

    Shang-Chi was a movie all about duality, origins, and becoming at peace with who you are, yet the origins never felt rushed or hastily told. The flashbacks never felt superfluous or too slow. The retcons made to a previous movie actually ended up enhancing both movies in retrospect - I can go back and watch Iron Man 3 without lingering regrets or anger because I know how the Mandarin character has been handled and who he really is.

    Spider-Man: No Way Home brought in villains from previous movies and made them relevant by recontextualizing (some of) their struggles and making that the focal point for our heroes. In some ways, it did what TROS was afraid of doing and pulled it off. (Meanwhile, Shang-Chi did what TROS did but better.) I've been hearing talk about people wanting to go back and see older Spider-Man movies because of how good a time they had in No Way Home, and social media cries for Amazing Spider-Man 3. MJ and Ned, while tied to Peter's story in the way that Poe and Finn were to Rey, still had their own emotions, agency, and bonds.

    When Aunt May dies, it's MJ who finds Peter on the roof of the school. MJ and Ned comfort Peter before the other Peters give their speeches. MJ and Ned mourn with him. They play an active and collaborative part in Peter's plan and aren't off on a side-quest that doesn't feel meaningful in the grand scheme of things. Yes, MJ and Ned don't have arcs, but their character beats are just as important. And Ned's magic powers are actually used to great effect, unlike Finn's Force Sensitivity.

    Not to mention that TROS was so afraid of redeeming their Big Bad that they had to bring in Palpatine to make Kylo seem less of a villain, so he and Rey could face Palpatine together. No Way Home didn't need to do that. The Green Goblin is a main victim and the main villain and final enemy. He is both, and he connects the past and present by how he has hurt both MCU Spider-Man and Tobey's Spider-Man. It's a balancing act, and one that NWH does brilliantly.

    Hawkeye balanced the legacy of old characters and the introduction of new characters in a way that did them both justice and evolved them both in a way that recontextualized previous engagements (or rather, highlighted aspects of the characters that were always present but rarely touched upon).

    Two years later, and a couple of great healing movies doesn't mean I'm fully healed though. I feel as if I've move through the anger stage and into the pity state...but I'm also not keen to test that theory any time soon. (I am willing to risk it if a writer and/or director commentary is every released.)
    I'm still happy for the people who like this movie, but I don't think I'll be joining them any time soon.
     
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  10. Sheddai_Lightkeeper

    Sheddai_Lightkeeper Clone Trooper

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    Star Wars is an occult allegory, about inner space, not outer space, filled with symbols and metaphors. It's a myth, a fantasy, a dream about our reality. For instance, the character Zorii Bliss in TROSW is a secret nod to George Lucas's inspiration Joseph Campbell, whose motto was, "Follow your Bliss." Zori are Japanese sandals or flipflops. If you will imagine the symbol of flipflops and bliss, one can interpret that the flipflops follow bliss. That adds context to the backstory of the character Poe, who left a shady past to follow his calling. Joseph Campbell died in the 1980's, and so that's as close as he will get to a cameo.

    Another example is Exegol, which literally means out of bounds, or beyond the boundary, where sits enthroned on a dead lotus, another symbol, the Jungian archetype of ultimate evil within the collective unconscious of man, Darth Sidious/Palpatine. This can never be killed inside man, but overcome and integrated individually and collectively. Every evildoer in history is a poor, malformed copy of it (Snoke.) Herein also is the hidden humor that Ian McDiarmid broke the mold as the ultimate evil. He is the part of you that's material, mechanical, and as dead as one can be in consciousness-- the opposite of Jedi that ascend to immaterial force ghosts- spiritual heights. The polarity of hell and heaven within you. The collective, the only thing that can put down empire, in this story led by Lando, rises to the occasion. Thus the inner light of the united collective rises in solidarity and overcomes the mass evil bubbling up from within the collective psyche. Together we, with our minds and actions, shape our reality, socially, politically, economically, environmentally, etc.

    Ships break the laws of physics not in outer space, but in the space of the mind and imagination. One must think of ships emerging from water not as actual ships, which people ridiculed, but as pieces of a horrible empire resurging from the submerged collective unconscious, the source of all evil empires from our psyches.

    The prequels (1, 2, 3) were about the fall of consciousness, ultimately within YOU. Padme means lotus, a sacred flower symbol in the east. When the connection to the divine was lost, the lotus died, killed within YOU. When this happened, twins separated-- Luke Skywalker, the light that walks across the sky-- the sun within you-- and Leia Organa, whose name means the place where the light shines, and instruments that make this inner light work in the world were divided. (Organa is Latin for instruments) The hidden meaning of Mace Windu's purple lightsaber is that it is the violet crown chakra in westernized versions of the chakras, which is difficult to describe here with few words. The power to wield it is cut off with Windu's hand. Each lightsaber color represents a color of the visible spectrum of light, which then symbolizes an aspect of ourselves. Lightsaber battles between Jedi and Sith are all about the struggle within consciousness.

    In the originals (4, 5, 6) Luke becomes the head of the inner light, the Jedi. Leia becomes the head of the outer world rebellion. Only when they join together and learn their true relationship to each other (twins within you, you see?) and face darkness with love that throws the inner evil out of bounds can it put down the empire. Anakin throws Palpatine out of bounds, as near as one can get to killing the evil within, an evil that is always there ready to rise in a king, a pope, a billionaire, in a clerk at the grocery store, in you, in your child. Luke faces his father with a green lightsaber that he built himself. Green is the color of the heart chakra, and according to Joseph Campbell the heart chakra is where one leaves animal nature and enters the higher aspects of being. See youtube: Joseph Campbell kundalini. You will not see the rainbow colors there, as he focuses on the eastern teaching.

    In (7, 8, 9) the empire tries to rise again, and the situation worsens because it takes the collective minds to change, not just one hero like Anakin. Luke goes "off grid," perhaps referring to all the people who see our world falling apart, but want to get away, say "F it all," and build their own little island and just survive with their own enlightenment rather than face the enormous problem of a collective psyche darkening and tearing our world apart. For the world to change, the whole soul of the world, the collective psyche must be transmuted, and in doing so, our inner light rises-- the rise of Skywalker in all people. In The Last Jedi, there are symbols of alchemical transmutation, such as the salt on the ground. This is just a brief description of what may be a different way for people to think about Star Wars, if they wish to pursue it.
     
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  11. daRinze

    daRinze Force Sensitive

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    Wow. Great post.
    I rated it "like" because a "GreatPost" rating causes no notification, as if it was lesser than "Like".
     
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  12. Sheddai_Lightkeeper

    Sheddai_Lightkeeper Clone Trooper

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    Thank you kindly for the like comment.

    "If you do follow your bliss, you put yourself on a kind of track that has been there all the while, waiting for you, and the life that you ought to be living is the one you are living. Follow your bliss, and don't be afraid, and doors will open where you didn't know they were going to be." Joseph Campbell
    Zori_(16042894618).jpg
    (Owner and source of zori photo, Moyan Brenn flickr.com/people/28145073@N08/ )
    Zori + bliss = "Follow your Bliss."
     
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  13. Sheddai_Lightkeeper

    Sheddai_Lightkeeper Clone Trooper

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    Read the clues and metaphors. Think of the story as you would interpret a dream. Here are several more clues...

    The fight on the death star wreckage, in raging waters, means rebirth, both for Kylo and for the galaxy reborn out of the wreckage of the past. . It's the watery womb, where mother and father are present in spirit, and there is the painful labor of rebirth. It's where Kylo dies to his lower nature and is reborn. He dies and is given a new lease on life, through love. Every generation born must put down their inner satan or palpatine that wants to rule over them.

    The base at the end of the previous movie symbolized "base consciousness," where the red soil (red, the root chakra, base consciousness) covers salt- an alchemical symbol. Alchemy is about transmuting or regenerating the soul. Kylo is in the material, crystalized, temporal world facing the immaterial spiritual master whom has projected himself across the whole galaxy, in more ways than one.

    Rey's new yellow lightsaber symbolizes temple guardians- of the temple within you. In the westernized chakras, yellow sits just below the green heart chakra. She has all the Jedi and all the Sith in her, as do you. It's her job/your job to be the guardian balancing the light and dark within you, and overcome your inner dark sith lord emperor that lives inside of you, while realizing that in a dual world, one cannot have light without dark. It's always there.

    Luke Skywalker as the inner sun, and Leia Organa as the place where that sun shines into the world as the leader of the material forces or instruments of rebellion against darkness, twin forces, in the end of TROSW, are shown in full spiritual union. This means the light that shines from from within us- from within all the people in the story- has been brought into the world, and put into action to put down the dark empire. It's Luke Skywalker's legacy coming to full fruition in the people of the galaxy. The power to wield the sword of each has been brought together and placed in the earth, in the material world. There is the binary sunset- two suns. One sun for your inner light, and one sun that shines in the world.
     
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  14. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Clone Commander

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    Yup.
    Sadly TROS happened at a bad time for me...I lost my mum earlier that year, who along with my late dad loved SW and supported my adoration of it; I also lost one of my cat 'babies'...ironically one that was especially close to my mum. TROS was meant to help me heal.....instead it only added to my depression.

    I think my problem is looking back I was only ever a Skywalker/Solo fan rather than a 'general' SW fan. I was far more into the films than the 'spin offs', so when they ended the family line they also ended my love of SW. It doesn't help matters much that I went from liking Rey to absolutely despising her by the end of TROS.
     
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  15. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend
    1030th General **** (Mod)

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    I never "hated" that movie but didn't like it that much either and actually I just saw it only once back then.
    Now after I got the whole Saga on bluray, I eventually watched it a second time and to my surprise the movie didn't feel that packed and rushed I remembered it to be and the whole ST feels more organic to me than I thought it was, even the Rey Palpatine part.
    Dunno why.
     
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