Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker General Movie Discussion

When Snoke mentioned the Knights of Ren it was in such a patronising fashion it just seemed to me that Abrams was showing that Kylo has been given a position of power that is virutally meaningless and that Snoke does not respect him. I think the fans place far more importance on them than anyone in the movies bar Kylo does. In TROS they were useful as a symbol of Ben Solo turning back and trying to atone.

They only way they would have added more interest than they did, IMO, was if TROS had begun with new Supreme Leader Kylo's Knights immediately plotting against him. But that would have the KoR dominating the conclusion of the trilogy story after being just one name drop two episodes prior. It was never going to happen. And it didn't really need to, unless you're adamant that the KoR were important and deserved to have been fleshed out. But I don't know how you can dictate that if you're not JJ Abrams.

 

JJ did what he could to save it but the ST was ultimately unsatisfying.

 

I appreciate that perspective and its relation to Snoke’s depiction in TLJ, but I don’t think that read makes much sense for the context of the scene. The idea is that, yes, Kylo has indeed committed himself to dark pursuits as a ‘Ren’, but hasn’t done anything as truly awful as kill his own father. Diminishing that role diminishes the weight of that statement and makes it fairly pointless.

One of my favorite bits in ROTJ, since I was kid, was when Boba Fett, this visually imposing figure, gets accidentally taken out like a total loser. It’s such a comedic juxtaposition. It’s the inverse of Yoda’s “Judge me by my size, do you?”

I’m probably the only one, but I would have loved it if that’s how KOR were handled in TROS: A bunch of dorks that look scary, but are actually complete push overs. Like, literally, they get ‘pushed over’ . . . a cliff . . . and that’s that.

 

No I think the mention of his father being a "test" is the exact same thing as hyping up his mastery of the knights of Ren. He's sarcastically goading him both with the position of power he already has and the promise of power through the murder of his father. Maybe Kylo was smart enough to sense he was being played by Snoke but he didn't want to believe it. He was ripe for being manipulated that way.

This is confirmed in TLJ when he scolds Kylo Ren in spite of doing what he wanted. Killing his father was never going to earn Kylo more respect from Snoke. But his failure with Rey because of it (which Snoke did not anticipate) certainly diminished any respect he had ,for him and Snoke began to doubt Kylo's usefulness in general. Either way it still made Kylo more vulnerable to Snoke's carrot/stick approach. His diminished opinion of Kylo surely lead to Snoke being blind to his intent to backstab him (or sidestab him).

 

But this scene is in direct conversation with the successive scene of him speaking to Vader’s helmet. “Forgive me. l feel it again. The pull to the light. Supreme Leader senses it.” What’s in doubt here is his dedication to the dark side - his commitment. What’s promised isn’t “power”, but the removal of that uncertainty - the death of that light that’s tempting him. Only then can Ben Solo truly die and Kylo Ren truly live. Mocking him in that moment makes very little sense.

What’s confirmed in TLJ is that the act had the reverse effect. ”The deed split your spirit to the bone. You were unbalanced…” Now he’s MORE conflicted than he was before. Why? “You have too much of your father's heart in you…” Mocking him in this moment makes perfect sense. He couldn’t deliver the goods.

It’s akin to his line to Rey in TROS: “You wanted to prove to my mother that you were a Jedi, but you've proven something else.” Kylo wanted to prove to Snoke that he was a true ‘dark sider’, but he proved something else. And that’s the button Snoke is intentionally pushing on: “I stoked Ren's conflicted soul.”

 

You know....I may be wrong, but I really don't think Kylo originally intended to take over the First Order when he killed Snoke. I don't think he was actually thinking that far ahead. It took all his mental strength and skill as a Force user to conceal what he intended to do from his master/abuser, and it was only after he killed him that he realised he had an opportunity here - and took it.

 

I think they go hand in hand. The dark side is basically a promise of power that the Jedi deny themselves, or deny each other and everyone else in the galaxy. I don't think Snoke is concerned about Kylo's commitment after he kills his father. As long as Kylo's willing to go through with. He'll still be able to manipulate Kylo whether it i. Even more so since there would be no going back for Kylo as far as his mother is concerned. Becoming a wreck and failing with Rey in the aftermath just provides Snoke with another stick to beat Kylo with. And the opportunity to keep danglin the carrot. So much so that Kylo tries to prove to Snoke that he's the real deal by taking out his mother. Even if he had passed that test, Kylo would be forever needing to prove himself to Snoke. The promise of power iwas always going to be dangled and then yanked away. Like it was with Vader.

But Kylo expects that if he finishes what Vader started. Goes the extra miles, destroys completely what he was in order to become what he was meant to be, he can attain the power that Vader sought.

Yeah that's right. Kylo's talking about himself as much as anything else.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 27, 2022, Original Post Date: Jan 27, 2022 ---

Then what was the purpose of defecting to the First Order? Kylo wants to become what he was supposed to be? Do you think he thought he was supposed to be second, or is it third, banana in the FO leadership?

Becoming the boss is always the aim of the dark sider. And not by popular vote.

I think it took as much of Snoke's arrogance and disrespect for Kylo to allow that to happen. Snoke could sense Kylo's resolve and banishment of uncertainty that @eeprom refers to but did not sense that it was in relation to ending his reign.

 

What’s so much fun about storytelling, and art in general, is that two people can look at the same work and come back with different interpretations.

To me, I don’t see the motivation behind the Kylo character ever expressed in terms of pursuing greater power, but as an affirming strength of self. Before he kills Han, he states explicitly how he’s feeling, “I'm being torn apart. I want to be free of this pain.” That’s what the act was supposed to do - free him from those shackles of compassion and guilt represented by his father - his family.

This links back to one of the thesis statements at the beginning of the film: “you cannot deny the truth that is your family.” However dark he might try to be, deep down he knows that’s not who he really is - what he knows to be ‘true’. That’s where his inner conflict is rooted and the basis for his schism with Snoke.

Snoke then purposefully arranges a ‘take 2’, as it were. Now, to prove his commitment, he’s being tasked with killing Rey, this new bond that represents his irksome compassionate inclinations, to “complete [his] training.” The phrasing Snoke uses in his throne room is in terms of Kylo now being “worthy” as his apprentice because “Where there was conflict, I now sense resolve. Where there was weakness, strength.” Strength = resolve. Snoke can tell that Kylo, in this moment, is now fully committed, but totally oblivious as to what about.

Kylo then reprises his statement from TFA “I know what I have to do”, but without the qualifying addendum “but I don't know if I have the strength to do it.” Because now he knows he has the strength. Not the “power of the dark side”, but the strength of resolve in knowing what he’s about to do is true to himself and his nature.

Anyway, this is only my interpretation. It’s just what makes the most amount of sense to me given what was presented and tracks decently through the overarching narrative.

 

Kylo fled to Snoke, more than the actual FO. Snoke had been in his mind for years, pretending to be his friend, and Luke's unfortunate mistake 'that night at the temple' ultimately played right into Snoke's hands.
Andy Serkis described Snoke as a 'predator'...he was the closest thing to a child abuser Star Wars could get away with on screen. He deliberately played Hux and Kylo against each other, as they both craved his approval and both had had pretty bad relationships with their real fathers.

Regarding dark siders aiming to be 'the boss'...that is the Sith rule of two, but JJ himself said unequivocally that Snoke and Kylo were not Sith. Which is why I found that so much of TROS doesn't make sense.

 

Just revisited this movie. This movie is a mess. But it’s a fun mess. I’m never bored while I watch it. It’s a silly space fantasy. I enjoy it for what it is.

 

JJ actually helped destroy it. TFA is immense fun, but ultimately the more I watch it, the more I see that it's really a rip off of ANH. Desert world, hero/heroine in white, message in a droid, good resistance, bad Empire/FO, masked villain in black, superweapon capable of destroying planets. I liked TLJ because it tried to do something different, but TROS retconned most of it, under used half the cast, introduced unnecessary new characters, and produced a dog's dinner that came across as a mix up of a load of other, better films. And yes, Terrio wrote it but at the end of the day, JJ was the one in charge. I don't think him indulging his friends helped much either.

 

ANH, ROTJ, and even TPM. They all use similar and/or the same plot beats. I think TFA's brilliance in using them was using different characters in the same setting. For older fans (read - fans who had already watched the other movies at the least) it meant we could focus on the new heroes and characters. For newer fans it meant that they could experience that classic Star Wars story with a new coat of paint and fun visuals.

 

They did much of the same in TROS, but it worked in TFA - it didn't work in TROS.

 

Hi! Please, help me with translation
English is not my native language, so i can't understand how to translate "order" in "First Order":
1. As in "You know, I figure order outside will generate order inside." - like the FO came to bring order to the galaxy
2. As in "A secret order, above and beyond the Emperor himself." - like the the FO is 1'st organization

Which is more accurate?

 

My assumption was that they are ‘first’ in terms of importance. Their organization itself, and its mission, are of the highest order - the grandest magnitude. And also that their supposed goal is to bring ‘order to chaos’.

 

Thanks!

 

There is a very competent Star Wars movie hidden in TROS, but it's the worst edited movie in the saga by a long long way. JJ must have been paid a bomb to not voice any complaints about the obvious meddling in the editing room, where it was given unnecessarily fast pacing which made it hard to feel the emotions the script intended.

There are many shots which should have been just 2-3 seconds longer to make it more emotional or funny. Luke lifting the X-Wing, Kylo's interations with the first order officers, the space battles and the dialogue with Palpatine. I don't understand why Disney/Lucasfilm were so terrified of making it the longest Star Wars.. and some of the CG just wasn't up to JJ's standards. They should have given him more time, money and honestly.. more control over the final cut.

I've been waiting for some kind of extended cut all this time, because it feels unfair to judge this movie properly without it.. guessing that won't happen.

 

Are we sure that's an exec problem and not just a JJ problem? I remember TFA, MI 3, and Star Trek: Into Darkness feeling similar. In all three cases, you've got scenes that are full of emotion, or should be anyways, that are cut short because something else happens right after. And in all three cases - or at least with TFA and MI 3 - the speed worked for JJ. I've always assumed that TROS was JJ falling back on what worked in terms of story and pacing, and this time it simply didn't garner the same reaction/result.

Disney/LF doesn't seem to fear longer movies, as TLJ was the longest one yet, and TROS was only shorter by 10-12 minutes. But I agree, adding those 10-12 minutes back in could have made a world of difference.
EDIT: That being said, apparently there were rumors (false ones IIRC) about Thor: Love and Thunder having a mandated runtime, so who knows.

 

TROS, to me, is like that person who goes in for a kiss at the end of a lackluster date, even though the two of you clearly had zero chemistry. “Honestly, I’m really very flattered, JJ. But I think we’re way better off as friends.”

 

Dude, Brandon busted her butt off on that movie in ways no one truly grasps.
She is a genius editor, and the absolute insanity she had to pull for that movie to even exist was absolutely bonkers.

If anyone wants to pick a point where things are a problem, pick the immovable deadline, because that put Brandon way behind the 8 ball.
She had to invent an entire new process for editing on set using a mobile station that was pulling directly from the cloud in near-real-time, and her and Abrams had to invent a workflow that was completely insane just to keep on track.

That insane workflow was Abrams would shoot, while he's shooting, Brandon's editing with her assistants.
When the shooting takes a pause to reset, or switch, Abrams would duck over to Brandon and look over two things:
1) A section that's been moved along from prior days and is progressively getting polished.
2) The latest pulls from just a bit earlier that came through the cloud, which an assistant and/or Brandon had slapped together roughly to spot check any big optical flow issues re: camera shooting needs.

In both cases, the primary focus was, "Do we have everything?"

It worked great for getting a ton of footage without needing massive post reshoots because Brandon could easily call out problems and the actors and crew were already there, so they could get what they needed that was missing rather easily.

However, Brandon never got the solo time editors often get where they just zone out the world and edit the Editor's cut, then show it to the Director who then works through it piece by piece diligently with the Editor to refine it down to the Director's cut.

Instead, they were assembling as they were shooting on set, and then at the end Abrams ran through it all with Brandon for a final cut - and that final cut was fast - they were well against the wall for time.

There was simply no way, after it was handed over to Abrams, that this picture was ever going to be a polished form of having everything dialed in just right pedantically.
It was destined to be a giant CCB tag across the whole thing (for those not familiar, CCB is production notes for "Could Be Better" - it's what they annotate on parts that they know should probably be better ideally, but will have to suffice for now - so done on the off chance some magical extra time pops up, which never happens).

This movie, from a technical standpoint, simply should not exist. It's quite simply an impossible movie.
That it exists to the degree that it does is mind boggling.

Also, don't bother waiting for a different cut. Abrams never releases separate cuts. He considers the production's theatrical cut to be the final cut.
He never likes looking back, either. He only likes to move forward, so he never pauses to back up and refine something more.
He accepts all of the bumps and bruises as part of the craft, takes them as charley horses and black eyes, and moves on.

Cheers,
Jayson