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Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker General Movie Discussion

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Trevor, May 31, 2019.

  1. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    When Snoke mentioned the Knights of Ren it was in such a patronising fashion it just seemed to me that Abrams was showing that Kylo has been given a position of power that is virutally meaningless and that Snoke does not respect him. I think the fans place far more importance on them than anyone in the movies bar Kylo does. In TROS they were useful as a symbol of Ben Solo turning back and trying to atone.

    They only way they would have added more interest than they did, IMO, was if TROS had begun with new Supreme Leader Kylo's Knights immediately plotting against him. But that would have the KoR dominating the conclusion of the trilogy story after being just one name drop two episodes prior. It was never going to happen. And it didn't really need to, unless you're adamant that the KoR were important and deserved to have been fleshed out. But I don't know how you can dictate that if you're not JJ Abrams.
     
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  2. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    JJ did what he could to save it but the ST was ultimately unsatisfying.
     
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  3. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I appreciate that perspective and its relation to Snoke’s depiction in TLJ, but I don’t think that read makes much sense for the context of the scene. The idea is that, yes, Kylo has indeed committed himself to dark pursuits as a ‘Ren’, but hasn’t done anything as truly awful as kill his own father. Diminishing that role diminishes the weight of that statement and makes it fairly pointless.
    One of my favorite bits in ROTJ, since I was kid, was when Boba Fett, this visually imposing figure, gets accidentally taken out like a total loser. It’s such a comedic juxtaposition. It’s the inverse of Yoda’s “Judge me by my size, do you?”

    I’m probably the only one, but I would have loved it if that’s how KOR were handled in TROS: A bunch of dorks that look scary, but are actually complete push overs. Like, literally, they get ‘pushed over’ . . . a cliff . . . and that’s that.
     
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  4. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    No I think the mention of his father being a "test" is the exact same thing as hyping up his mastery of the knights of Ren. He's sarcastically goading him both with the position of power he already has and the promise of power through the murder of his father. Maybe Kylo was smart enough to sense he was being played by Snoke but he didn't want to believe it. He was ripe for being manipulated that way.

    This is confirmed in TLJ when he scolds Kylo Ren in spite of doing what he wanted. Killing his father was never going to earn Kylo more respect from Snoke. But his failure with Rey because of it (which Snoke did not anticipate) certainly diminished any respect he had ,for him and Snoke began to doubt Kylo's usefulness in general. Either way it still made Kylo more vulnerable to Snoke's carrot/stick approach. His diminished opinion of Kylo surely lead to Snoke being blind to his intent to backstab him (or sidestab him).
     
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  5. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    But this scene is in direct conversation with the successive scene of him speaking to Vader’s helmet. “Forgive me. l feel it again. The pull to the light. Supreme Leader senses it.” What’s in doubt here is his dedication to the dark side - his commitment. What’s promised isn’t “power”, but the removal of that uncertainty - the death of that light that’s tempting him. Only then can Ben Solo truly die and Kylo Ren truly live. Mocking him in that moment makes very little sense.
    What’s confirmed in TLJ is that the act had the reverse effect. ”The deed split your spirit to the bone. You were unbalanced…” Now he’s MORE conflicted than he was before. Why? “You have too much of your father's heart in you…” Mocking him in this moment makes perfect sense. He couldn’t deliver the goods.

    It’s akin to his line to Rey in TROS: “You wanted to prove to my mother that you were a Jedi, but you've proven something else.” Kylo wanted to prove to Snoke that he was a true ‘dark sider’, but he proved something else. And that’s the button Snoke is intentionally pushing on: “I stoked Ren's conflicted soul.”
     
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  6. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    You know....I may be wrong, but I really don't think Kylo originally intended to take over the First Order when he killed Snoke. I don't think he was actually thinking that far ahead. It took all his mental strength and skill as a Force user to conceal what he intended to do from his master/abuser, and it was only after he killed him that he realised he had an opportunity here - and took it.
     
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  7. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    I think they go hand in hand. The dark side is basically a promise of power that the Jedi deny themselves, or deny each other and everyone else in the galaxy. I don't think Snoke is concerned about Kylo's commitment after he kills his father. As long as Kylo's willing to go through with. He'll still be able to manipulate Kylo whether it i. Even more so since there would be no going back for Kylo as far as his mother is concerned. Becoming a wreck and failing with Rey in the aftermath just provides Snoke with another stick to beat Kylo with. And the opportunity to keep danglin the carrot. So much so that Kylo tries to prove to Snoke that he's the real deal by taking out his mother. Even if he had passed that test, Kylo would be forever needing to prove himself to Snoke. The promise of power iwas always going to be dangled and then yanked away. Like it was with Vader.

    But Kylo expects that if he finishes what Vader started. Goes the extra miles, destroys completely what he was in order to become what he was meant to be, he can attain the power that Vader sought.

    Yeah that's right. Kylo's talking about himself as much as anything else.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 27, 2022, Original Post Date: Jan 27, 2022 ---
    Then what was the purpose of defecting to the First Order? Kylo wants to become what he was supposed to be? Do you think he thought he was supposed to be second, or is it third, banana in the FO leadership?

    Becoming the boss is always the aim of the dark sider. And not by popular vote.

    I think it took as much of Snoke's arrogance and disrespect for Kylo to allow that to happen. Snoke could sense Kylo's resolve and banishment of uncertainty that @eeprom refers to but did not sense that it was in relation to ending his reign.
     
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  8. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    What’s so much fun about storytelling, and art in general, is that two people can look at the same work and come back with different interpretations.

    To me, I don’t see the motivation behind the Kylo character ever expressed in terms of pursuing greater power, but as an affirming strength of self. Before he kills Han, he states explicitly how he’s feeling, “I'm being torn apart. I want to be free of this pain.” That’s what the act was supposed to do - free him from those shackles of compassion and guilt represented by his father - his family.

    This links back to one of the thesis statements at the beginning of the film: “you cannot deny the truth that is your family.” However dark he might try to be, deep down he knows that’s not who he really is - what he knows to be ‘true’. That’s where his inner conflict is rooted and the basis for his schism with Snoke.

    Snoke then purposefully arranges a ‘take 2’, as it were. Now, to prove his commitment, he’s being tasked with killing Rey, this new bond that represents his irksome compassionate inclinations, to “complete [his] training.” The phrasing Snoke uses in his throne room is in terms of Kylo now being “worthy” as his apprentice because “Where there was conflict, I now sense resolve. Where there was weakness, strength.” Strength = resolve. Snoke can tell that Kylo, in this moment, is now fully committed, but totally oblivious as to what about.

    Kylo then reprises his statement from TFA “I know what I have to do”, but without the qualifying addendum “but I don't know if I have the strength to do it.” Because now he knows he has the strength. Not the “power of the dark side”, but the strength of resolve in knowing what he’s about to do is true to himself and his nature.

    Anyway, this is only my interpretation. It’s just what makes the most amount of sense to me given what was presented and tracks decently through the overarching narrative.
     
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  9. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    Kylo fled to Snoke, more than the actual FO. Snoke had been in his mind for years, pretending to be his friend, and Luke's unfortunate mistake 'that night at the temple' ultimately played right into Snoke's hands.
    Andy Serkis described Snoke as a 'predator'...he was the closest thing to a child abuser Star Wars could get away with on screen. He deliberately played Hux and Kylo against each other, as they both craved his approval and both had had pretty bad relationships with their real fathers.

    Regarding dark siders aiming to be 'the boss'...that is the Sith rule of two, but JJ himself said unequivocally that Snoke and Kylo were not Sith. Which is why I found that so much of TROS doesn't make sense.
     
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  10. Adam812

    Adam812 Rebel General

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    Just revisited this movie. This movie is a mess. But it’s a fun mess. I’m never bored while I watch it. It’s a silly space fantasy. I enjoy it for what it is.
     
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  11. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    JJ actually helped destroy it. TFA is immense fun, but ultimately the more I watch it, the more I see that it's really a rip off of ANH. Desert world, hero/heroine in white, message in a droid, good resistance, bad Empire/FO, masked villain in black, superweapon capable of destroying planets. I liked TLJ because it tried to do something different, but TROS retconned most of it, under used half the cast, introduced unnecessary new characters, and produced a dog's dinner that came across as a mix up of a load of other, better films. And yes, Terrio wrote it but at the end of the day, JJ was the one in charge. I don't think him indulging his friends helped much either.
     
  12. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    ANH, ROTJ, and even TPM. They all use similar and/or the same plot beats. I think TFA's brilliance in using them was using different characters in the same setting. For older fans (read - fans who had already watched the other movies at the least) it meant we could focus on the new heroes and characters. For newer fans it meant that they could experience that classic Star Wars story with a new coat of paint and fun visuals.
     
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  13. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    They did much of the same in TROS, but it worked in TFA - it didn't work in TROS.
     
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