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Swords and melee fighting in SW and real life

Discussion in 'Random Discussion' started by Star Dude, Aug 10, 2017.

?

What’s your favorite melee fight scene from all the Star Wars movies so far?

  1. Darth Maul vs. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon on Naboo

    11 vote(s)
    32.4%
  2. Count Dooku vs. Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda on Geonosis

    2 vote(s)
    5.9%
  3. Count Dooku vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan on board the Invisible Hand

    1 vote(s)
    2.9%
  4. Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidius on Coruscant

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Yoda vs. Darth Sidius on Coruscant

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Anakin vs. Obi-Wan on Mustafar

    3 vote(s)
    8.8%
  7. Chirrut Imwe against Stormtroopers on Jedha

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Luke vs. Darth Vader on Cloud City

    5 vote(s)
    14.7%
  9. Luke vs. Darth Vader on the 2nd Death Star

    7 vote(s)
    20.6%
  10. Kylo vs. Finn and Rey near Starkiller Base

    5 vote(s)
    14.7%
  1. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

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    Escrima is PERFECT – congratulation on that part!

    European martial arts died out at a point in time over here. But some core principles lived on as the Spaniards exported to their colonies: they brought with them their fighting style of sword, espadona, rapier and small shield (buckler) to the Philippines. The local people adopted some of the European techniques and in combination with the local tradition, created Escrima.

    Fluent movement without freezing in a stand, side stepping, distance control and CUTTING moves even with the sticks are the best basics I can think of to make sword fighting really work. Knowging about and practicing Escrima was a fine asset when re-discovering European martial arts. Also the twirling is part of preparing for the next strike or block, even using only one part of a stick as if it is the sharp edgy part of a blade. Staying in motion all the time is the key to success.

    My HEMA trainer also learned Escrima from his very professional Master, and included teachings in the training. That guy also trained on the Philippines with real pros from the local villages, where they proudly presented older photographs from villages feuds with the chopped of heads of the defeated. So you say, Escrima is battle proven. As the story goes, there’s also a big collection of the Katanas from Japanese WWII officers resting on the Philippines, as they seem not able prevent the Filipino’s from taking them from them, armed only with sticks and machetes.

    So any good HEMA school worth its salt should at least acknowledge Escrima as the only living connection from the past to the present.

    You’ve just made your first steps into a bigger world!
     
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  2. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Jedi Sentinel - Army of Light
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    I've been a Correction Officer for 12 years now, what I love about Escrima is that it teaches you a variety of disarming techniques. Most inmates carry shanks, razors, scalpels, and knives, so It helps me allot on the job. We also use a baton which is heavier then the Escrima sticks but applied with the same technic can be deadly.
     
    #22 Rogues1138, Aug 11, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
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  3. Oneforceonebalance

    Oneforceonebalance Rebel Official

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    The best melee weapon battle, Obi-wan vs Anakin Skywalker as Vader.

    Then Luke vs Vader when Vader tells Luke he will turn his sister to the darkside if he won't join a classic battle.

    Then Kylo Ren vs Finn, Finn was very intense no training as a Jedi, Kylo fighting him because of he's a traitor and Finn fighting to protect his friend Rey.

    At the end of Roge one Vader killing all the resistances as he can as he storms in!!!

     
    #23 Oneforceonebalance, Aug 14, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
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  4. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

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    Good choices! Although I would not call the last one really a fight but more a one sided, what – massacre?!


    For those who are interested in (semi) authentic representation of medieval swordsmanship and armory, I like to recommend two movies I personally found worth watching:

    Arn – The Knight Templar (cinema version or TV Series): A Scandinavian production featuring weapons from the renowned armory https://www.albion-swords.com/ . Also the fighting techniques shown are close to what is thought in HEMA schools today. You can find lots of material already on youtube regarding this flic.
    swordF1.jpg


    Kingdom of Heaven (Director’s cut): Although not historical correct in some aspects, the film nonetheless tries to be true to the sources at some points. When Qui-Gon sorry, Godfrey teaches his son Balian how to do sword fighting (in three minutes!), he shows him the position Posta di Falcone (Hawk Guard), which is delivered correctly from medieval treaties on sword fighting. But unfortunately, Liam’s execution, food work and posture is rubbish. Also, nobody with any common sense would use sharp swords on a fencing lesson with a beginner, both to stay in good health and keep the weapons in fighting condition for the next real fight.
    swordF2.jpg

    The sword of Ibelin, that is sported by Orlano Bloom’s character, is a fine replica based on some King Edward’s one they studied at a museum before making the prop if I’m not totally mistaken.
     
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  5. Finn_McCool

    Finn_McCool Jedi Commander

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    I would like to see more star wars saber fights based on samurai techniques. They are short, and every move is deliberate. No wasted moves, every strike is a potential kill. It would be short, but not ridiculously long and over the top. Like Obi Wan vs Maul on Star Wars Rebles last season.
     
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  6. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

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    Yes, very Zatoichi like. I enjoyed that scene in its purity of how a master does it, that a lot.

    I guess when coming to the core of most fighting styles, all the sportive aspects are removed, than you almost get to the quick and precise ‘come to an end’ techniques to minimize the chance of getting oneself wounded or killed (besides many other advantages. This is both true for sword fighting Asian or European style.


    Edit: By the way, I’m unable to access your profile page @Joshua Decker, because an ‘Cantina Error’ pops up all the time. I guess it’s blocked for people not following (yet)? I wanted to congratulate you on your outstanding Avatar pic! That image reminded me of this post… ;)https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....of-the-force-to-a-new-level.9923/#post-305589
     
    #26 Star Dude, Aug 14, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
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  7. Finn_McCool

    Finn_McCool Jedi Commander

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    Totally agree.
    Huh? Thats wierd. Meybe its a glitch. I don't know the mechanics yet of following or anything like that.

    Edited: ohh yes. I forgot. I turned it off. I'll fix it soon when I get the chance.
     
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  8. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Jedi Sentinel - Army of Light
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    Thanks @Star Dude for HEMA info I found a school close by, $20 for a park session will look into it further, and fit it in my busy schedule.
     
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  9. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

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    Keepin’ my thumps pressed that you can make it, they got a good quality of technique(s) & teachings and a taster course giving good insight.
    You got a name from that school?
     
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  10. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    Some people think Kylo is bad at fighting because he loses to someone who never touched the weapon before.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 14, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 14, 2017 ---
    Thats what they are based on (and samurai/katana techniques aren't short) . ESPN did a special before TFA came out about Kendo and its relationship with Lightsaber combat in the star wars movies



    However Kendo matches aren't always the most exciting to watch, so they dress the movements up, add twirls and spins, and take out the moments where the fighters are looking for openings and weaknesses etc... I think people who claim they want movie fight scenes to look like real martial arts or real kendo or real sword fighting etc.... don't realize how boring that would make them.

    This is the first match of the mens team final of the world kendo championship (from the above video) - if this is what Kylo vs Rey looked like, how many people would find it exciting?



    The fight closet to this in Star Wars, that I can think of, is Obi-wan vs Vader in ANH - is that fight high on anyones most existing list?
     
    #30 Canadian Ronin, Aug 14, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
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  11. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    There is a logic to why each trilogies lightsaber battles look different. The PT features fully trained Jedi fighting fully trained Sith. The OT features old men, cyborgs and half-trained Jedi, so their movements weren't/couldn't be as acrobatic. The ST feature's half-trained/not trained combatants, they lack skill and finess and relay on brute strength.
     
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  12. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Jedi Sentinel - Army of Light
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    http://roguefencing.com
     
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  13. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I'm really surprised at two things here:

    - How high the Kylo v Rey fight was (though it definitely does deserve a high ranking!)

    - How low the ESB fight way.


    Though, I think the framing of this question allows for more exciting answers like this, for sure! Really interesting to see!
     
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  14. Oneforceonebalance

    Oneforceonebalance Rebel Official

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    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 14, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 14, 2017 ---
     
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  15. Finn_McCool

    Finn_McCool Jedi Commander

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    Kendo is very similar to Samurai fighting, however it's more of a sport than a fighting discipline. I actually like the Ben Kenobi vs Vader fight. It's not super flashy. However Obi Wan isn't really trying to kill Vader, but to create a diversion.

    From what I understand about Samurai fighting, that even the way the sword is drawn is a strike. Thats why most fights end in only a few strikes. Very fast, i guess not good for a movie. Huh? But anyway great post man.
     
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  16. Oneforceonebalance

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    @Lady Rey
     
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  17. Finn_McCool

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    This is what i was talking about earlier though. Very similar style, very fast.
     
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  18. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

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    You’re absolutely correct. In regards to the application in “real” life combat, kendo as a sports derivation of the original martial arts is analogue to Judo.

    There quite a bunch of close to the original Samurai teachings out there to be found in various schools and traditions. These guys practice both kenjutsu (sword techniques) and Iaijustu (draw and strike), among others. In this, they are again comparable to the European schools as all teach the use of weapons in combinations with unarmed techniques and movements to get your opponent down and out while moving oneself out of harms way as quick and most efficient as possible.

    Here are two examples. Just watch the animated movies on the home site of the first link and you will see instantly the difference of techniques done with a shinai for collecting hit scores in a tournament (kendo) vs. training with bokken (wooden swords) and Katanas made from metal to learn killing strikes and techniques to overcome you opponent in the most efficient way.

    UK: http://battodo-fudokan.co.uk/

    US: http://www.kaishindojo.com/

    If you want to learn how to use a sword properly, you’ve also to train moving your body and weapon in a way that efficient cutting strikes are delivered (mostly practiced with wrapped up, moisture tatami mats). This is something, some schools forget about.

    Even when training the classic Ninjutsu of today, which is called Bujinkan Dōjō Budō Taijutsu, only 3 of the 9 included schools are Ninja only (Togakure, Kumogakure and Gyokkôshin Ryû). 4 of them are Samurai based and there are lots of different sword techniques and philosophies included (Shinden Fudo Ryû , Kuki Shinden Ryû, Takagi Yôshin Ryû, Gikan Ryû).
     
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  19. Canadian Ronin

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    Yes and no - kendo players don't only train the quick hits you see in tournaments. I also do Iaido, many of the techniques exist in both martial arts. However a samurai/japanese swordsman fight is about making your best attack, possibly with a waza, and seeing who wins. If neither does, gaining space to do it again. In that way, Kendo is very much a representation of how they fought - just with points instead of death. I couldn't find just hte fight - it starts at 1:38:00 - see how its similar?




    You don't think Obi-wan would have killed Vader in that moment if he could have? Please.

    Yes Iaido has many of those techniques, but not every fight would have started with them in range of those techniques. There are also stories of two samurai "engaging" and looking at/studying each other for hours and then disengaging without drawing because neither could see an opening. Or a skilled Samurai with good/strong seme ending a fight just by putting his on his sword. But yes, their style of fighting was a lot different then European and ideally/generally would only take 1-2 techniques (waza). This was because of the different in weapons, armor/clothing, no shields etc... but also Japanese culture and the different way they would approach conflicts and life in general.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 15, 2017 ---
    I wouldn't say fast - any European duelist/swordsman would want to end a fight quickly too.

    The Japanese style of Fencing is more about trying to win rather then avoiding losing/death. In that clip Kyuzo makes no attempt to block or parry the attack, he simply makes his own attack, and if the other person is more skilled.....Kyuzo would die. Thats the culture different and how it affects their martial arts - the European/West would/does have more focus on living, on not risking your own life for a killing stroke. To the Japanese.....that's what you do. Playing to not lose is a criticism in Kendo

    http://www.kendo-world.com/wordpress/?p=2343
     
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  20. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

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    Guys, here’s some easily explained chart showing the most obvious differences between the classic and modern martial art styles. That one rounds it up very nicely.
    combatArts.jpg

    The European history of combat arts has undergone the same evolution then the Japanese one. Out of the once battle ready fighting, schools the modern tournament version were developed as there are now:Boxing
    • Wrestling
    • Fencing (saber, rapier and foil)
    All these disciplines in their early application are taught in any good HEMA class.

    And now I’m thinking about the big universe, far far away. Is there an equivalent of ‘modern’ fighting styles used for sports, recreation and training? Maybe you can watch on the HoloNet?

    Something like a Bothan stick fighting competition? Or saber classes you can attend on Chandrila? Evolved and ‘civilized’ by highly developed cultures? Alderaan’s Judo Variant? Huttese Cage Fights?

    Edit: Or just watch the source of that chart for yourself ;)
     
    #40 Star Dude, Aug 15, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
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