Swords and melee fighting in SW and real life

At 5:15, is that Pee-wee Herman? hahaha sissy

 

I do. I just don't think what you write says what you think it does.

I'll break it down a little then - Kylo is trained and skilled at using a Lightsaber. Rey isn't. You claimed her experience (probably not training) with her staff would = being able to pick up the lightsaber combat quickly. As someone with experience using bo's and swords (I never asked - do you have such experience as well?) I pointed out that the two don't really translate to each other well. As I asked above - do you think a pro-golfer would be able to hang with a pro-tennis player in a tennis match? Would that experience golfing mean he'd picked up tennis very quickly?

You also said the force is what allowed Rey to compete with Kylo and you don't like how I've pointed out the full.......reprocutions of that concept how it doesn't really hold up in the saga as a whole. So - please explain how did the force assisted Rey her using a weapon she is completely unfamiliar with and how I'm "not getting it"?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 22, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 22, 2017 ---

but being able to move faster and possibly see a bit into the future (both things we see no evidence of Rey being able to do, nor do we have an evidence that she is more powerful then Kylo) doesn't = being good at what you're doing. Actually moving fast when you don't know what you're doing is a negative would most likely lead to you hurting yourself.

The script and book make it clear that Kylo's rage and desire to get the lightsaber out-weigh any pain and distress he is in over Han - this isn't an emotionally compromised Kylo who is wild and not fighting well. For this argument to hold water you have to ignore parts of the canon you just don't like. And remember Kylo uses the Darkside - fear, Pain, Anger, Hate FUEL his attachment to the force.

 

*chuckles*

 

when the point you're trying to make doesn't hold up and you clearly have a problem with that, and the other person takes the time to spell it out and then ask for clarification of your position and all you can muster is "chuckle" - you've labeled yourself someone as not to take seriously. I'll try one last time with you:

You said - "Rey is very talented. Cuz she is most probably stronger in the Force than most" & "She is not an untrained nobody but a skilled melee fighter that has a strong connection to the Force. Her winning without that connection would make both, him a bad swordfighter and her a Mary Sue. But since she is strong in the Force it is completely plausible that she can apply here staff melee skills to adapt them to lightsaber."

It sounds VERY much like you're saying the force made Rey a good lightsaber duelist - going so far as to say Rey without the force winning that fight wouldn't make sense, but because she can use the force..... So - please explain how did the force assisted Rey her using a weapon she is completely unfamiliar with and how I'm "not getting it"?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 22, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 22, 2017 ---

On the force - Yes and No. It depends how you view "the darkside of the force". While what you bring to it will give it a light or dark aspect, when you bring fear, anger, pain, hatred - you get the "dark" aspect. The darkside is still there, is still a thing, still exists even if its the person creating that darkside with how they choose to tap into the force. As for the force interfering with a fight directly.........why not? Qui-Gon talks about listening to the will of the force and how nothing happens by accident. If Jedi can listen to the will of the force, then the force has things it wants to happen and would/does directly influence events.

As for the fighting - lets look at AotC. Anakin is THE chosen one, more sensitive to the force then any other Jedi, even Yoda. And at this time he has 10 years of experience and training with a lightsaber. He fights Dooku who defeats him easily, even though Anakin is the strongest Jedi (at least when it comes to connection to the force) there is. Then after Dooku and Yoda fight, Dooku says they are evenly matched and their contest will be settled by their knowledge of the force. Clearly setting up lightsaber dueling as something seperate from a Jedi's ability to use and knowledge of the force. If the force added or made someone a better swordsman, why would the two kinds of contests be different? Why wouldn't Dooku and Yoda simply use the force to increase/improve their physical fighting?

So to bring it to Rey/Kylo - Rey can use the force, and she may be the grand daughter of the chosen one, but so is Kylo. And Kylo is trained in how to use the force, so any of those abilities that help Rey would be there with Kylo as well. And he knows how to use the weapon, Rey doesn't. Kylo is wounded, but the wound clearly isn't hampering him - he catches up to them, on foot, in tough terrain. He HITS his wound because he gains strength from it etc.... So are slightly better reflex's (maybe) really why Rey won the fight? Thats enough? And in Kendo - skill and talent trump reflex's every time.

Oh - this "precognition" manifests itself as good reflex's, but not so amazing that people without hte force can't match them.

 

Yes. Im a bad bad person. That dislike discussions with people who are explaining me what i meant with something i said.
So shoot me

 

Man, this was a pretty neat thread for a while.

 

LMAO. Wow......just wow.

Yes - "It sounds VERY much like you're saying the force made Rey a good lightsaber duelist - going so far as to say Rey without the force winning that fight wouldn't make sense, but because she can use the force..... So - please explain how did the force assisted Rey her using a weapon she is completely unfamiliar with and how I'm "not getting it"?" is certainly me explaining to you what you're saying and not how what you're saying is coming across AND asking for clarification if that interpurtation is wrong.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 22, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 22, 2017 ---

I agree.

 

Hey! That was funny post i beg your pardon...you even wrote lmao and wow.

I was saying that Rey's connection to the Force makes her a better learner than people who dont have that and that that fact is enough to make the thought of her adapting her staff technique to her lightsaber technique plausible.
There. That said...thnx for weird argumentation exposure
Better?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 22, 2017 ---

You gotta learn how to relax bro...not EVERYTHING is serious

 

Star Dude is correct - one of the main things training is, is removing unnecessary movement. Unnecessary movement = slow and ineffective. You also don't need a tone of force or strength when using a weapon like a sword. Think of a kitchen knife - you don't use much force when your slicing chicken or steak - one of the big things with new students in Iaido is getting them to swing with less strength more smoothly, since that will create a better cut. To use golf again - new golfers always want to swing hard, they think the ball will go further. People who know what their doing understand they need to let the club do the work. The same is true with a sword - much more important to relax and let your body move smoothly then to tense up and try to swing with force. Let the sword do the work.

That isn't to say no strength is needed, but you don't need to spin and twirl to build up head speed in the tip of the blade.

 

But i always dance around in the kitchen when i cook? Knives in hand and all...

 

Ok - I don't think we see evidence of the force working this way in another other situation, but ok lets say it works that way.

Rey never learned how to use a lightsaber, she just picked it up. So if the force implanting knownledge in her? Or is it guiding her actions?

She's the golfer stepping on a tennis court. Thats why, to go back to your original question/point, some people see Kylo as weak. How many people would think the tennis player who loses the golfer is a good tennis player?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 22, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 22, 2017 ---

two extremely good Iaido practitioners. Notice how relaxed they are - shoulders are down, necks aren't tense. They are able to move smoothly they don't have relax muscles before they can do the next move. They move with speed and enough force, but they never need to build up or pre-load their movements.

Even here -

Those mats have been soaked in water and are similar to the density and hardness of a human body - see how little force it takes to cut through? Like the Iaido technqiue's, no spinning, no pre-loading, no build up etc.... to gain head/top speed or force is needed. Smooth, relaxed movements, and the sword does the work.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 22, 2017 ---

One more video on this topic, again from the samurai spirit series, go 19:40.

The white guy, Nicholas Pettas, is in his late 30's. He is a championship winning full contact Karate fighter. The sensei he is facing, Kishimoto Sensei (I've actually attended several seminars where he has been the head instructor) is around 78 at the time this was made I believe. Pettas is bigger, strong and faster then Kishimoto Sensei, but Kishmoto sensei beats him every time because he isn't wasting his movements like Pettas is, and his movement is smooth and direct. No waste.

 

I realize I never gave my vote.

For me it's a tie between Anakin vs Obiwan and Kylo Ren vs Finn and Rey. They are similar, yet different. Opposite elements, but similar fighting styles, yet one is like a dance and the other is aggressive and gives you a sense of urgency (for obvious reasons). I find that what ended Anakin and made him became Vader is what ended Kylo Ren and returned a part of Ben Solo, and both tell a story through the duels.

I find Kylo Ren likes to toy with his victims though and bring them pain that is slow and brutal. His meeting with Rey on Takodana is a good example of toying, and his burning Finn's shoulder is a good example of causing slow pain.

Anakin seemed to fight with purpose instead, despite how brutal he could be too.

 

It's like...poetry...that rhymes....not that other kind that doesnt...which is odd..considering GL's love for anything japanese...one would say he'd prefer non rhyming one....like haikus...that arent too symmetrical...horizontally at least...
Anyway...i think we need a poetry thread...to culturally elevate ourselves some and to share the poems of great authors of past and present....do we have that in the Cantina?

Could we use the word 'kylo's freezees' instead of 'victims' cuz the latter sounds creepy?
Its interesting you put it that way cuz i never saw it like that...i always figured him relentless and straightforward in takondana and skb as well...like..he just goes!! And all people can do is backtrack...(during fights)
When he freezes Rey in takodana its not cuz he wants to play with her, i think...its cuz she shoots at him? And one cant have a conversation while deflecting blaster shots.

With Finn...i also never saw it as teasing as much as i saw it accepting Finn's (tottally unrealistic) challenge and giving him a chance to prove himself. Which Finn cant cuz he cant even parry...but then gets a lucky shot and Ren gets pissed...so burning the shoulder is an act of pure revenge....you hit my shoulder...well f*ck now im gonna pay you back...triple...

Ani was so full of him self during the Mustafaar fight...but im always left wondering, after i finish watching this duel, how OB1 is a great fighter. Whatever ani threw at him he whitstand through all...and not just by blocking...in many instances parrying and countering as well...

I chose skb end fight as best...but duel of fates and Mustafaar fights are my second favorite..cuz of the story they tell....plys i just love dual blade wielding by maul

 

I don't think there is much logic or point in trying to figure out how Rey's experience with her staff translates to the lightsaber. The film was designed to work that way - if that was their thought process they'd have come to the same conclusion you did in the bolded text. They gave her a staff because it is/was the type of weapon a poor person, who works for portions of meals, would be able to find or scrape together. Rey is able to beat Kylo Ren at the end in a lightsaber battle for the same reason she is a superior pilot to trained military pilots, she is a marksman with a blaster the first time she uses it, she can mind-trick someone 5 minutes after learning she is force sensitive etc..... - Kennedy and the other creative people involved wanted a strong female lead, and thought/assumed having that character show any weakness or inability would under-mind that message.

Just a thought on the Jedi - in pretty much every culture I'm aware of - the sword was a side-arm used more for personal protection. When you're in a battle, if you're using your sword, its because something's gone wrong (ie - you're out of arrows, your spear/lance is broken or gone, and you're trapped). Swords were pistols while spears, lances and bows are the assault rifles. So when the Jedi take on the role of General's and Soldiers and have to fight a war, why are they still using side-arms?

 

Their precognition manifests as quicker reflex's (not super human reflex's or people around Anakin would know something is up with him). Look at my Iaido video above to see faster reflex's vs experience and superior technique.

 

Don't like the Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon vs Maul fight. Try watching it with the sound off or filter out the music to see what I mean. It's way too long, gets boring after a while, the moves look too rehearsed, choreographed and fake, like a dance routine. Its just action for actions sake.

Same with the Anakin vs Obi fight on Mustafar. Again, way too long, too choreographed, too elaborate and ridiculous in parts. Its basically ILM showing off their cgi skills like in a demo reel to attract business for their next job.

But the worst fight was the Palpatine vs Mace Windu fight. Poor Ian McDiarmid looks so stiff and awkward with his stabby little moves that it looks totally unconvincing and quite laughable to watch. Great actor, but poor swordsman.

Best fights for me are the three Luke vs Darth Vader fights, particularly the Cloud City one.