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Swords and melee fighting in SW and real life

Discussion in 'Random Discussion' started by Star Dude, Aug 10, 2017.

?

What’s your favorite melee fight scene from all the Star Wars movies so far?

  1. Darth Maul vs. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon on Naboo

    11 vote(s)
    32.4%

  2. Count Dooku vs. Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda on Geonosis

    2 vote(s)
    5.9%

  3. Count Dooku vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan on board the Invisible Hand

    1 vote(s)
    2.9%

  4. Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidius on Coruscant

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  5. Yoda vs. Darth Sidius on Coruscant

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  6. Anakin vs. Obi-Wan on Mustafar

    3 vote(s)
    8.8%

  7. Chirrut Imwe against Stormtroopers on Jedha

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  8. Luke vs. Darth Vader on Cloud City

    5 vote(s)
    14.7%

  9. Luke vs. Darth Vader on the 2nd Death Star

    7 vote(s)
    20.6%

  10. Kylo vs. Finn and Rey near Starkiller Base

    5 vote(s)
    14.7%
Page 6 of 8
  1. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    Even for the Romans, they started with their spears/javalins and only switched to the sword when they had no option.

    Bold - so in other words they were used for personal protection.......
     
    #101 Canadian Ronin, Aug 24, 2017
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  2. Lady Rey

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    Holy shi- I never received any alerts that my post was replied to in this thread! Give me sometime to reply, and I will!
     
    #102 Lady Rey, Aug 24, 2017
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    I mean, I definitely don't disagree about the prequel fights being over-choreographed, but I think a lot of films will seem boring by comparison when you turn off the sound. :p
     
    #103 cawatrooper, Aug 24, 2017
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    The dramatic music is there to make it more exciting. But if you hadn't noticed, there is very little music during the Cloud City fight. All the action is creating the excitement. The shortness of the scenes also make the fight tense, as action splits between Luke vs Vader and the attempt to rescue Han from the clutches of Boba Fett. The flicking back and forth between the two plots also adds tension and drama to both.
     
    #104 SKB, Aug 24, 2017
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    I had always hoped she would end up with a double-bladed lightsaber, and I admit I am disappointed she is only wielding Anakin's saber.

    Not the freezing, the part before that when she keeps hearing his saber, but can't see him.

    Not teasing for Finn, intention to hurt. He had a vendetta with him and was determined to make him suffer for it. Finn is basically the reason everything went wrong if you think about it.

    Anakin may have been great, but I feel he never truly surpassed Obi-Wan. He even let him kill him in ANH. Vader didn't kill him because he was the better fighter
     
    #105 Lady Rey, Aug 24, 2017
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  6. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

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    No, you’re absolutely mistaken on this point.

    The roman pilum was a fire and forget weapon that was used only before the first melee contact was even made – and the main purpose was to discourage, distract, slow down and to make shields useless because of the mass of metal sticking un-removable in them. Wound the enemy was a nice side-effect, but not the main purpose.

    As soon as the real fighting began, the Gladius (sword) was the only weapon used! The sidearm of a roman Legionnaire was his Pugio (dagger).

    So, they throw one or two volleys of Pilums (they don’t had more with them, and for the real fighting would have used their hands, because you said they would only use there sword when they had no other option?!? The Pilums had a break point with a nail made out of lead to prevent them after one use to be either thrown back or used as melee weapons.

    And I’m not referring here to the camillan, but to Roman infantry as from 3rd centutry B.C. and later.

    There are tons of historical correct sources out there - look them up if you don't believe me.
     
    #106 Star Dude, Aug 25, 2017
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  7. Canadian Ronin

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    And when they were equiped with Hasta?

    And the original point still stands - the sword is, if not exclusively, primarly a side-arm weapon - so would it not make sense that when they become soldiers and generals the Jedi would adopt more effective weapons for that enviroment.
     
    #107 Canadian Ronin, Aug 25, 2017
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  8. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

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    As I’ve written before, my example was the roman legion in the 500 year interval from 300 B.C. onwards were the Hasta was no longer in use, or was re-introduced around 285 A.D. with Diocletian’s army reformation. If you want to make your point by ignoring 500 years of historical proven facts, you’re welcome, it’s a free world. Not everybody likes trusting web sources such as Wikipedia.


    All these infantry soldiers are carrying only gladii (later to be replaced by a longsword called Spatha):
    trajan.jpg

    But it would be cool if you could come over, there’s a battlefield some 66 km’s from where I’m sitting right now where 3 Roman Legions with their auxiliary troops and baggage, were slaughtered by German tribes. There’s quite some evidence after 20.000+ Romans died in the field and on display in a museum there, and also well versed guides and scholars could give you a fine impression what Roman warfare at that time looked like.

    But my gut feeling tells me, that for the moment you don’t want to adjust your view on this, so let’s move on.

    OK, that point is worth a discussion: What kind of weapon would suite a Jedi best when entering frontline combat, supporting the skills of a Jedi in an optimal way while going (defensive?!?) into a conflict with lots of enemy forces trying to kill you. The assumption would be, that the environment is not duel like, but a battlefield.

    So what is your idea, what weapon would perform better under such conditions than the classic known lighsaber?
     
    #108 Star Dude, Aug 28, 2017
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  9. Canadian Ronin

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    If the only example you can come up with a, relatively, short period of time were 1 part of 1 army used 1 specific sword as a primary weapon, who's tactics were had to built around using it, and those tactic's eventually failed them in the face of superior technology and tactics of other people - you've kinda proven my point.

    Without inventing weapons for the Jedi - blasters.
     
    #109 Canadian Ronin, Aug 28, 2017
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  10. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Cool thread!

    Sorry if I'm dredging up/butting into old arguments but I've just been reading the last few pages of the thread and wanted to throw my 2 cents in there...
    It's interesting you raise the problems muscle memory can play in cross-training. My first impression of the snow duel was that Rey was using the sabre just like her bo before her connection to The Force came into play!

    I may be wrong here (my experience with melee weapons is neglible) but maybe there are some general melee skills that may help a novice transition from staff to sword such as reading openings and opponents telegraphing their attacks (something Kylo seems to make obvious once he loses his calm demeanor).
    I could be wrong about this too but I'd assume someone with some athletic proficiency may be quicker at picking up a completely different sport than a member of the general public. I'm thinking factors like hand/foot eye coordination, fitness, determination, self-confidence, steady nerves under pressure conditions etc.
    Maybe. I think you're bang on to emphasise the importance of skill and training in combat but maybe there's enough reasonable in-universe evidence to suggest Force ability counts for just as much in SW?
    I've always thought this ↑ to be similar to what in the real world is sometimes described as “flow” or “being in the zone”. You've probably experienced something similar when performing your art - feeling especially in tune with results coming fast and effective yet feeling effortless. (I can already hear you saying "yes - due to much practise and training!!")
    So anyway...
    It may not count as a "melee fight" but it's still my favorite use of a melee weapon!

    Windu vs Fett.gif
     
    #110 Moral Hazard, Aug 29, 2017
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  11. Greywalker

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    My favorite move: Kylo's relentles piruette in the fight with Finn when he just slams him to the ground.

    But this Windu stuff....very good too :)
     
    #111 Greywalker, Aug 29, 2017
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  12. Moral Hazard

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    Take a seat Finn.

    Kylo slams Finn.gif
     
    #112 Moral Hazard, Aug 29, 2017
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  13. Greywalker

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    Oh god....*bites tongue*

    and that's why...Finn isnt a FS.
    Ei @SlugmanAttacks?


    I mean...look at how Rey fights against Kylo...similar to Finn at the begining...but then...she connects with the Force...and goes full blown kylo...its the recreation of their fight on the mental plane they had during interrogation. Step by step.
    Surprise...shock....retreat....defiance...connection...selfrealization....FEEEEEEEELING the Force....awakening in it....claiming it for your own....and just simply...executing what you envision withing your mind. Bam...there goes big bad emmotionally distraught Kylo down. He did not loose so much because Rey is a better skilled swordfighter...he lost cuz:
    1. He did not want to kill/hurt her
    2. he lost his connection to the Force
     
    #113 Greywalker, Aug 29, 2017
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  14. Canadian Ronin

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    No not really. As I said how you hold, use, move your body, etc... is completely different with a sword and bo. As for the force - then we're back into the Force is making Rey win the fight? So is the force guiding Rey's actions or did it "upload" combat knowlege to her head? Either way, why didn't it that when Anakin fought Dooku? Or Luke fought Vader? Or Obi-wan fougth Vader? Or Yoda fought Palpatine etc... Why wouldn't the force help the grandson of the chosen one at all? If the force can do all this for people - why not do it for Finn? I know he can't feel or use hte force, but it should be able to use him right?

    Go to 2:05 of hte video. This is what it looks like when a full contact Karate Champion (white) fights an experienced Kendo player (Red). A high base level of athleticism will probably allow someone to pick a martial art up faster (good body awareness etc...) but it doesn't explain someone who has never used the weapon before beating someone who knows what they are doing. I used the example before - would an athletic golfer who's never played Tennis be able to beat an experienced Tennis player the first time he steps on the court?

     
    #114 Canadian Ronin, Aug 29, 2017
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  15. Canadian Ronin

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    Another (funny) example of an untrained person fighting an expert

     
    #115 Canadian Ronin, Aug 29, 2017
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  16. Greywalker

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    Yeah...but is she strong with the Force??! Huh? Huh?
    Lol :D

    Eta
    Lol...i just watched it...hahaha...that was funny :)
     
    #116 Greywalker, Aug 29, 2017
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  17. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I love impractical Jokers. Though for a perfect analogy, I think Q should've been Chewbacca :p
     
    #117 cawatrooper, Aug 29, 2017
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  18. Moral Hazard

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    Not really to what again? ;)
    I don't think anyone is disputing this ↑. I was disputing your claim that...
    ...and claiming there are may be other skills you've overlooked that help translate between different martial arts and melee weapon use:
    • remaining calm under pressure
    • confidence & self-belief
    • awareness of surroundings
    • balance & solid foundation
    • reading opponents (telegraphing attacks, openings)
    • hand/eye coordination
    • fitness (strength, stamina, flexibility)
    Depends on the circumstances. There may be factors in your hypothetical that could seriously sway the outcome...

    Is the experienced tennis player:
    • much more experienced?
    • someone with an unrefined technique who hasn't yet completed their training?
    • trying to compete while carrying a serious injury?
    • competing while under a state of mental conflict and emotional turmoil?
    • overconfident and arrogant at first then plagued by fear and self-doubt halfway through the match?
    Besides, if the golfer in question had a stronger connection to a mystical energy Force that partially controlled her actions and obeyed her commands she may well beat any tennis player on her day!
    I don't know about The Force "making Rey win the fight" but I imagine most SW fans could see how a strong connection to The Force could be enough advantage to swing the result in favor of the underdog in any SW duel.

    Anyway, the fact remains that Rey was running away most of the fight and was clumsy with the weapon until she started using The Force and caught Ren off guard.

    You correctly identified the real-world requirement of writer-intent on the outcome but may be underestimating the in-universe advantage given to a strong Force connection. An untrained Maz Kanata probably wouldn't stand a chance against a heavily trained Stormtrooper unit but because "Force connection" she could probably bring the roof down on them.

    edit:grammar
     
    #118 Moral Hazard, Aug 29, 2017
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  19. Canadian Ronin

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    Ones talents with a bo don't really translate to a sword.

    being calm and confident don't = beating someone with training and experience when you have none.

    Really? If you're going to argue that someone who has never picked up a tennis racket is going beat someone who is a trained, experieinced tennis player because he is good at golf.... you're just ignorant on how this kinda stuff (sports, martial arts etc..) work.

    So why didn't the force help the heroes win another duel that they lost during the saga? Why wouldn't Kylo's connect trump Rey's?
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 30, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 30, 2017 ---
    Fact is, in regards to the fight fights:

    Finn should have been beaten about as quickly as the guy in the Kendo video. They extend the fight for dramatic reasons, but at least it ended the way it should and in a way that makes sense.

    Rey should have been beaten in pretty much the same way - extending the fight for the same dramatic reasons is/would be fine but the end should have been the same. It ended the way it did not because it makes sense or is the logically outcome or even storytelling reasons (good storytelling keeps the villain strong until the final battle) but because there was no way Kennedy was going to have the strong female lead of her new star wars movies look weak, lose a hand or anything like that (I think its pretty obvious this logic applies to everything Rey tries throughout the movie).
     
    #119 Canadian Ronin, Aug 30, 2017
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  20. Greywalker

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    @Canadian Ronin
    Kylo has no firm conection to the force during the fight with rey. Do you see him there and think...oh this is an emmotionally calm person? Plus he....does....not.....want....to....harm....her. if he did. She would be dead when above that abyss. He was bluffing. And she wasnt.
     
    #120 Greywalker, Aug 30, 2017
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