"TFA is just just a copy of ANH!"

There is rumour about a set called "Senate aula", so there might be something in VIII.........

 

Yes, the First Order wants power, I guess, but so what? It is still very vague. But what makes them different from the Empire? This would all be fine if the majors things weren’t problematic like characterization.

Rey doesn’t know what she wants, she wants to be with her family but none of her character traits really dictate the story. They don’t specific what about her family she wants. We don’t know anything about why she wants to be with her family. Yes family is great we all know that but there has to be more to it. Like what about her family does she yearn? We know where Luke comes from, we don’t know he is the son of Vader but we do know his father fought in the clone wars and that he is was adopted by Uncle Owen and Aunt Peru. That provides some depth.

She doesn’t have any flaws. She’s lonely but that’s hardly a flaw. She is strong with the force, okay but why? Luke was uncertain but he still had clear he goals. He wanted to be a space pilot and was reluctant to help Obi-Wan but he does it in the the very first act. We never see Rey actually doubt her abilities. Yes she touches the lightsaber and that traumatizes her but why? What does that have to do with the rest of the story? You can still be a gifted person but with flaws. Rey, however, gets herself out of everything because she can, which makes it hard to relate to her. In Good Will Hunting, he is a gifted mathematician but he is a flawed dude, he lacks trust and is overly defensive, while also ignorant. These traits come in to play throughout the film.

Yes, performances are great but the writing is not consistent.

Finn wants to defect, yes that’s great in the first act. Why does he want to save Rey? This could be more acceptable if he didn't emote so much but he acts as if they have been together for so long when they literally just met. Yes Han and Luke celebrated at the end but they never acted like they were the best of friends. They acted like they would when two strangers bond. And none of what he does really drives the story the way Han, Luke and Leia’s. Han and Luke’s interaction and characterization drove the plot in a New Hope. None of the effects the First Order had on him really come in to play. Yes, he knows Starkiller Base but none of his traits influence everything. Han’s cocky attitude got everybody in trouble in Empire. Luke learning to trust his instincts allows him to be able to destroy the death star just like Han's learning to overcome his selfish behavior allows him to help Luke during Death star battle.

You don’t need to announce every character decision but there has to be clarity. Rey can suddenly defeat Ren because she trusts in the force, that can be fine except everything leading to that is messy. She really doesn’t doubt herself. She can get herself out of everything, no problemo. She gets captured by Ren once, whatever she can outdo him in mind games and can escape quickly. What does she learn to do this?

A New Hope stands on its own because fulfills his character arc established in the beginning. Yes, Darth Vader is not dead yet but they told a complete story.
Empire is the middle film, so it leaves loose ends. There is nothing wrong with leaving loose ends but there has to be fulfilling experience. Force Awakens is filled with a series of set ups and mysteries that are never answered.

As far as ranking I would rank it 5,4,6=R1, 7, 3,2,1

To me the Force Awakens felt too gimmicky and didn’t really do a whole lot new. The fact is, I enjoyed the film, it’s a fun film I just found it frustrating that after having so much time to develop the film, they just came up with a remix of the same beats of other Star Wars movies. That’s just me, others feel differently and that’s great. Perhaps I will be more appreciative of the film depending on how 8 and 9 turn out. As it stands, I don’t think it lives up to the any of the OT.

 

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 16, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 16, 2017 ---

Anyone who says TFA is a copy of ANH probably doesn't like Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

 

You can repeat the Mary Sue argument plenty, but it doesn't hold water for all the reasons stated previously. Her actions do drive the story because she's the one with the information required by the First Order, which doesn't need an explanation just as the Emperor/Empire didn't. She's the one that is protecting BB-8 and the one Kylo finds that has seen the map. If she's not there, BB-8 is caught on Jakku and can't deliver the information to Artoo (who is really the big flaw in the movie - his awakening was random and without sound logic).

Finn states why he wants to pursue Rey. She's his first friend and they just had an adventure together. Nobody needs a massive monologue at their Friendsgiving to explain how everyone knows each other and when they decided to be friends. Circumstances happen. Finn demonstrates empathy in the first scene when he sees his companion die in front of him. He's a realized character. Han didn't need a monologue to explain why he all of a sudden goes back to save Luke. There's no specific scene where he explicitly states that he's a rebel now. He never says he necessarily likes Luke as a friend or that he actually doesn't like the Empire. He says nothing of the sort. There's no 'a-ha!' moment for him, just as there's none for Finn.

Rey's story is clear and the logic is very sound within the context of SW. If the Force is able to impregnate a human being and create a 'chosen one' then it should be able to enable an already able-bodied survivor to survive a kidnapping and bring a certain lightsaber to a certain person. Rey's character arc goes from uncertain young person barely surviving to the person who finds Luke Skywalker. That works for a movie that's number 7 in a series this expansive.

It's funny and requires some historical understanding of the Cold War, but I recognized exactly what the Resistance was before the crawl ended. It's a proxy or para-military organization the same that was utilized by both the USSR and USA throughout the world, both fighting for and against rebellions. I might be one of the few that made that connection, but that just makes me special. I didn't need any explanation.

 

This. And also why is there even a First Order? I mean why does the New Republic allow this to happen? The movie really needed some social-political exposition.

This is something which also bothers me. Even in the prequels, the plot was carried on by the decisions of the characters. In TFA things just happen around characters and they flow with the plot... E.G: Rey accidentally bumps into Finn, then accidentally bumps into Han, then she gets captures. The events just happen aroud her accidentally... The only thing which is her deliberate decision is to find Luke in the end of the movie. But for what reason? She seeks her family? She wants to be a jedi? She wants to fight the FO? Or she is just up to an adventure? Why dosen't she go back to Jakku? Did the confrontation with Kylo and/or her vision change something?

 

could potentially have nothing to do with Ach-To in my opinion...just the production optimizing the space..

 

Well, there you go. She's a loner, just like Han was. Did Han have an 'a-ha! I'm a Rebel now!' moment? Not really.

 

How could those silly Germans let the Nazi's rise to power...how could the American people let Trump rise to power...
All it takes is one disenfranchised group of people with enough voting power to completely alter history.

Magnify this to the vastness of the Star Wars galaxy....and it wouldn't be difficult at all to see the FO rise

 

I think your examples are wrong. Both of those events were first occasions.
A better example to this situation would be if the nazis would rise up AGAIN after ww2 and the US/UN would let it...

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 16, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 16, 2017 ---

True, but I think that was rather a moral question. He realised that abandoning his friends is just wrong and returned to help them. That dosen't even make him a rebel necessarily...

 

If that's enough for Han, a drug trafficker, its probably enough for Rey, a Force talented individual encountering friendship for the first time in her life.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 16, 2017, Original Post Date: Jan 16, 2017 ---

Well, Lucas is a proponent of the theory that fascism always rises up to challenge liberty in a consistent cycle. That those themes and battles take place time and time again throughout human history, from Rome to Nazi Germany, from Gorbachev to Putin today. It's a constant cycle.

 

I disagree about the Nazis or Trump being first occasions.
Look at what is going on around the globe...with the rise of fascism all over the middle east and even eastern Europe. You can try to stop it. But these sort of powers rise all over all the time.

Imagine in an entire galaxy where you could hide and build in complete secrecy without interruption on isolated planets....

 

I was thinking over the weekend how much more.......interesting TFA would have been, or how interesting Episodes X+ would be, if they went with this idea but instead of looking at Nazi's for inspiration they looked at the modern authortarian/crtl/regressive left.

Say we catch up with Rey 20 years after defeating the First Order and the Republic is stamping out freedoms and silencing people who disagree with them. They aren't goose-stepping or anything but people/planets are not free. And we see Rey possibly having to join with people formly considered villains.

 

There was no scene where Han states that he is a Rebel because he was a smuggler aiding Luke and Ben in going to Alderann, they then happen to stumble on the death star where Leia is being held. Han gets his reward from the rebels and is off. Luke tells him take care of yourself you big jerk and Han shrugs it off. He assures to himself and Chewie he knows what he is doing but ultimately does come back to help Luke. Its not about him being a Rebel. its about him as a character making that choice that is set up and is paid off in the climax.

Rey barely surviving? She seemed alright to me, in fact great, she has no uncle Owen holding her back. She gets herself out of everything. Wanting to be with her family is not enough. Where did come from? By not giving us any indication of her backstory other than she was dropped off when she was five, it becomes hard to relate to her. How can she understand wookie?

She doesn’t doubt herself at all. She overcomes everything. Forget about stupid Mary Sue, this is more about storytelling issues.

Yes Rey is protecting BB8 but none of her goals or personality really drives the story. She wants to get BB8 to the resistance, fine but then she sees some random visions and then says I want nothing to do with this. Why? What scene ever indicated or told us that it would culminate into this decision to just run off into the forest. Its as if Abrams wants to do at least five different character arcs for one person within a span of a two hour movie. What was the purpose of that force vision? As in, how did it have any relevance to the plot? In ESB, Luke saw his force vision of Vader, that purpose was to remind Luke of what he could become if he gave in to the notion of hate and also foreshadow his first duel with Vader later in the film.


With Finn, they want us to think that Finn and Rey are the best of buds without doing the real work to show us, they just take a lot of shortcuts.
He was ready to leave her and said to her take care of herself then later gets so worked up that Ren took Rey. That kind of reaction “NO, REYY!” would usually come from someone who has known this person for a long time or at least has this deep understanding. With Finn and Rey, they just met.

There is never a quiet character moment between Finn and Rey, like there was with Han and Luke where they butt heads over whose a good pilot or the notions of the force. With Finn and Rey, they jump from set piece to set piece in about ten minutes daytime and then go to a bar, the one quiet moment they have together they

why should I have to know about the Cold War to understand what the heck is going in a science fiction film called Star Wars?

 

Yeah, but at least we got something in ANH. In TFA we got nothing. Also, Han's turn was a good arc. We got a set up and a resolution later. Its some character developement. Rey just found the script and moved it forward. Im pretty sure they'll resolve this in VIII, but the stroy is a bit lacking to me this way.

Rome to Nazi Germany? Thats a huge exaggeration... While there are certainly some similarities, the two systems are still vastly different. Both socially, ideologically and geopolitically. Also, there is a millenium and a half between those empires, yet there are only three decades between ROTJ and TFA. Usually after great empires fall there is a rest untill another one rises (obviously, since there is a huge economical crysis/change right after). Look at Alexander's Empire or the Mongolian Empire. And usually if an empire falls it will not rise again and definitely not in the same form. The Greeks fell, Rome fell, Byzantine fell, the Ottomans fell, The British fell. The same empire never rose up again.

The FO rising up just makes very little sense to me lore wise. I mean the Republic won and started to rebuild the society. The remaining fragments of the Empire were certainly still there, so logically we'd assume that the Republic didnt want those to rise again (which in historical comparsion would never happen soon again). So why did they let them become so powerful so soon? Why was even a Resistance needed? Why didnt the New Republic itself fought them? Was there a great economic crysis or something?

I'm from Middle Europe and fascism is not rising here. There is some leer towards right wing policies, but it is nothing remotely close to fascism.
After ww1 there was: Social, economical, ideological crysis and a huge fear of bolshevism. All of them together and a power shift (France and A-H ceased to be major powers) were needed for the nazis to rise up. Currently there is only some social crysis in Europe. But the nazis will not rise again in their original form. Some say we never learn from history. I believe thats not true. The world learned from the nazis/japanese and will not let it happen again (at least not in the same form).

Again, what TFA wants to present is something like: The same, but smaller Nazi Germany rising up just a few decades after ww2 and the US/UN lets it happen... Its a completely absurd presentation.

*EDIT
Plus, the Empire was a system kept together by the Emperor and fear. Why would the star systems bow down again without a DS or a terror authority keeping the "order"?

 

It's broad strokes. The repetition of history is between power of few over the many, and more democratic local control. The conversation is always occurring - personal/local liberties versus central control. It's a constant conversation. Rome began as a republic, then fell to dictatorship. That's what Lucas is referring to in the Prequels, its a constant cycle. It doesn't require a world war.

So Han is victim of circumstance? Still not explained. It doesn't need to be.

Again, if you need every detail for every character then you're going to be sorely disappointed. The information is all there if one wants to think it through, which is why this site and so many others exist and why 1000s of writers love to write Star Wars. Rey is completely explained by all that's happened in the GFFA, you can be disappointed all you want that a character or another doesn't "drive the plot". It's probably not necessary in such a developed universe restarting the journey of several characters as well as introducing new ones.

 

If you really are trying reboot a series and start a new trilogy, then having the characters drive the plot or have their conflicts actually dictate the story would be a wise way to do so.
Having characters make one liners or gimmicky jokes is not the same as showing character development.

I understand the idea of history repeating itself but you still have to strong world building and not rely on hardcore fans to write novels to fix all of your problems.

 

Rome was never a republic in terms of what we nowadays call a republic. It was always a dictatorship in some form. There is a reason why its Senatus Populus que Romanus and not Populus Romanus...
And I disagree. For something like the nazis, certainly something massive has to happen. Not necessarily a world war, but at least a massive crysis in some form...

 

Well if you're denying that the Nazi's aren't influences in Star Wars villains....then........

And that was Lucas' point in the prequels, everybody sat by and "let liberty die with thunderous applause". Its a warning, not a massive crisis.

I can't believe I'm forced to defend the prequels.......lol

They're not problems considering mostly everybody loved the movie and can't wait to jump back in. We overanalyze everything which results in constant repetition of questions and a need-to-know-now mentality that often ruins small enjoyable character moments. One could easily have labeled Han a prick until he suddenly comes in and saves the day at the end.

People complained about Constable Zuvio not being in the movie for jesus' sake.

 

What? Lol, no... I never ever would say anything that stupid. Ofc the nazis were the influence for the Empire.
What I was talking here is that the rise of the First Order right after the Empire fell is weird, imo.