1. Due to the increased amount of spam bots on the forum, we are strengthening our defenses. You may experience a CAPTCHA challenge from time to time.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

SPECULATION the church of the force has no place in starwars

Discussion in 'General Movie Discussion' started by FallenAngel, Feb 4, 2016.

?

star wars should be kept free of religion

  1. no church or gods

    10 vote(s)
    19.2%
  2. church and gods

    11 vote(s)
    21.2%
  3. dont care

    31 vote(s)
    59.6%
  1. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2015
    Posts:
    693
    Likes Received:
    280
    Trophy Points:
    917
    Credits:
    1,358
    Ratings:
    +511 / 218 / -120
    The word church has massively christian overtones.
    In a universe void of gods and religion, why would people seek to introduce something so divisive?
    --edit
    in a universe void of earthly gods and religions, not gods and religion of the force.

    The world of star wars is a world were the force is a real tangible thing, people regularly see force users make it conform to there will, validating its existence, as a consequence religion never arose, there was no need. At most exceptional force users or heroes of old were studied maybe even deified.

    But church's and gods are out of place in this world, the broad term of the force means any one can interpret it in accordance with there own beliefs, its all inclusive, and should remain so. thought?
     
    #1 FallenAngel, Feb 4, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2016
    • Clouded x 5
    • Dislike x 4
    • Trolling x 3
    • Great Post x 2
    • Disagree x 2
    • Wise x 1
    • Old News x 1
  2. Bosc

    Bosc Force Attuned

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2015
    Posts:
    3,455
    Likes Received:
    5,776
    Trophy Points:
    15,522
    Credits:
    7,022
    Ratings:
    +8,494 / 65 / -17
    I disagree that it has any Christian overtones, and there's nothing about gods. It doesn't seem very odd to me that people in that galaxy who are not Force-sensitive would be fascinated.

    That's just the way I take it, at least.
     
    • Like Like x 8
  3. C3-Steve-O

    C3-Steve-O Rebel General

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2015
    Posts:
    228
    Likes Received:
    545
    Trophy Points:
    3,882
    Credits:
    1,790
    Ratings:
    +891 / 14 / -3
    "You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion." - Tarkin to Vader
     
    • Like Like x 14
    • Wise Wise x 5
    • Informative Informative x 3
  4. timonder

    timonder Clone Commander

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2016
    Posts:
    218
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    457
    Credits:
    1,127
    Ratings:
    +312 / 4 / -3
    I remember reading that Lucas and Kasdan had a disagreement about what the Jedi were all about. After ANH, Lucas wanted to convey that Obi-wan wasn't a real Jedi master, that a real Jedi master had a mindset like Yoda. Kasdan called Lucas crazy! In his eyes, Obi-wan was everything the Jedi stood for. Unfortunately, from ESB on, the Jedi idea was allowed to move into a swashbuckling direction.

    I simply believe that they are finally honouring Lucas' original take on the Jedi philosophy.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Wise Wise x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. JayBiggS

    JayBiggS Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2014
    Posts:
    732
    Likes Received:
    1,212
    Trophy Points:
    7,737
    Credits:
    2,336
    Ratings:
    +2,163 / 44 / -8
    I wish they wouldn't go in this direction as well. Hopefully they won't mention that group in the films but leave it to the easily ignored new EU

    EDIT: however my reason for feeling this way is likely not the same as the OP's and I will leave it at that
     
  6. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2015
    Posts:
    693
    Likes Received:
    280
    Trophy Points:
    917
    Credits:
    1,358
    Ratings:
    +511 / 218 / -120
    Playing the pro noun game, if "it" means church

    church
    noun

    1. 1.

      a building used for public Christian worship.
      "the church was largely rebuilt at the end of the 15th century"
      synonyms: house of God, the Lord's house, house of prayer;

      it does seem to have both christian and godly applications.
    @C3-Steve-O
    wikipedia say's about the word religion.
    i don't have a problem with the word religion being used to define the dark side and the light to the uninitiated.
    but could certainly be better redefined?
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  7. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
    1030th General **** (Mod)

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Posts:
    10,000
    Likes Received:
    141,324
    Trophy Points:
    173,077
    Credits:
    68,830
    Ratings:
    +157,644 / 65 / -7
    yeah, i'm confused by the OP.

    Church of the Force: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Church_of_the_Force

    and as @C3-Steve-O quoted: people refer to the old ways (Sith/Jedi) as a religion off-handedly.

    and of course it's a religion (defined as "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power"). why else would they say "May the Force be with You?"

    is it just the word "church" that's so objectionable? the word "religion"? is this just a semantics problem?
     
    • Like Like x 4
  8. bluemilk7

    bluemilk7 Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2015
    Posts:
    202
    Likes Received:
    270
    Trophy Points:
    782
    Credits:
    841
    Ratings:
    +422 / 21 / -3
    let's not forget.. the church of the force was not addressed at all in the force awakens.. so i really don't understand what point you're trying to make here. the film was as fantastical and religion-free as possible..
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,289
    Likes Received:
    3,221
    Trophy Points:
    13,167
    Credits:
    7,253
    Ratings:
    +5,168 / 26 / -7
    I think I understand your fears and you could probably present a serious argument for this, but I respectfully disagree. Christopher Hitchen's once claimed "religion is the outcome of unresolved contradictions in the material world." A Church of The Force sounds like it's in the right place to me - that is wherever sentient beings and difficult to explain phenomena co-exist.

    I also love that the Star Wars universe seems to be a melting pot that traverses and welcomes multiple religions and perspectives. It's broad spiritual and moral appeal not only attracted Alec Guiness to the franchise but allowed it to be introduced into many religious families who it might otherwise have been lost to [due to strict spiritual/magic censorship].

    It's truly a Rorschach Test that can be enjoyed through almost any lens imaginable. These forums are testament to broad and conflicting perspectives often presenting Star Wars from personal bias and ideologies. Our posts betray us!! I think Star Wars and The Cantina may be richer for the diversity.
     
    #9 Moral Hazard, Feb 4, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2016
    • Like Like x 5
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  10. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2015
    Posts:
    693
    Likes Received:
    280
    Trophy Points:
    917
    Credits:
    1,358
    Ratings:
    +511 / 218 / -120
    yes absolutely, the concept I'm fine with, i actually quite like.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. Admiral Petty

    Admiral Petty Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2015
    Posts:
    1,221
    Likes Received:
    4,562
    Trophy Points:
    11,592
    Credits:
    6,344
    Ratings:
    +5,783 / 13 / -0
    Eh, that is indeed the use of the word Church in real life, but in the Star Wars universe there is no such thing as a Christian Religion, therefore there is no reason to assume that it is rooted in such ideologies. I don't have a huge problem with it, outside of the fact that the word Church doesn't seem like something one would hear in the world of Star Wars. Then again, that's an issue I've been having with a lot of new canon material, bringing overly earthy sounding words into the world of Star Wars.

    As for religions and god's in general, those things were already present in Star Wars outside of the Force, whether it be C-3PO being mistaken as a god by the Ewoks or Jar Jar referring to his gods in TPM. It only seems natural that when you have a galaxy full of quadrillions of beings that there will be a vast number of religions and faiths as well. It would be preferable if they found less earth-like sounding terms to convey that idea though.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Wise Wise x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2015
    Posts:
    693
    Likes Received:
    280
    Trophy Points:
    917
    Credits:
    1,358
    Ratings:
    +511 / 218 / -120
    Just to clarify
    the concept of a sudo religion arising I'm fine with, people seeking to understand the ways of the jedi or sith. cool

    its the semantics
    church's, namely

    There was a minute in TFA when Rey got shot at and said ow GOD. These things are a problem. though small they are very decisive.

    As i said in my OP people have no need for gods in star wars, they see force wielders who become conduits of the force, draw on it from either end of the spectrum.
    though most can not yield the same results as force users, they would all be in line with it, wether this be from a positive or negative perspective.
    i welcome adding depth to this via none force sensitive people seeking to understand more.

    but lets keep it mystical. keep chuch's and gods out of it.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 4, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 4, 2016 ---
    Yeh totally agree. semantics. but thats why these things if used lazy to broadly apply a meaning we understand, do just that, they can become misconstrued and as an extension become divisive. because our understanding of church's is from a christian concept.
    The point is it can do with out the ambiguity.

    Possibly the Ewoks were the equivalent of a isolated tribe uninvolved to some degree, they had no real tech and i guess no concept of the force?
    Death to jar jar lol.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 4, 2016 ---
    i personally like to thing there is only the force in that universe, and people just align with one side of its dualistic nature. other wise it can very easily become a substitution for the word GOD?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  13. Admiral Petty

    Admiral Petty Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2015
    Posts:
    1,221
    Likes Received:
    4,562
    Trophy Points:
    11,592
    Credits:
    6,344
    Ratings:
    +5,783 / 13 / -0
    I do indeed agree with you to a degree, but I still have no problems with various alien races having religions and gods. Just because the Force exists in this universe doesn't mean that everyone would view it in the way that groups like the Jedi and Sith view it. It seems perfectly logical that even if certain groups of people were aware of the Force that they still might attribute its power to be that of a deity or a group of deitys. If you know much about ancient religions, people made up gods to explain any number of things that they didn't understand, whether it be how crops grew or the changing of the seasons.

    Another thing to consider is that even though the Jedi were a central religion in the Republic, they were still vastly smaller in number than the inhabitants of the galaxy. At its height the Jedi Order consisted of somewhere around 10,000 Jedi Knights, that is an incredibly tiny drop in the bucket compared to the population of the galaxy, and that fact also explains why the Empire was able to suppress information about them so easily. The Jedi were already legendary and mysterious figures in the galaxy prior to their purge at the end of the Clone Wars. Another thing to consider is that the Republic never represented the entire galaxy, just the central portion, a huge chunk of the galaxy was even represented by the Republic, which was the faction that the Jedi had sworn to protect.

    When you take a more comprehensive look at the state of the galaxy, it seems highly likely that there would be plenty of people out there with no proper understanding of the force, and hence, they would have their own religions and gods.

    I do agree that for the most part we should focus on the Force and its understanding as related through the Jedi and the Sith, but I have absolutely no problem with there being a multitude of religions in the SW Galaxy, I honestly think it would be a little odd if it were any different.

    One other thing regarding the Church of the Force, even though I'm not crazy about the use of the word Church(for different reasons than you), if you look up the group in TFA Visual Dictionary, they are not a religion bound to any gods anyhow, they are just awaiting the return of the Jedi to set things right in the universe again.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2015
    Posts:
    693
    Likes Received:
    280
    Trophy Points:
    917
    Credits:
    1,358
    Ratings:
    +511 / 218 / -120
    @Admiral Petty
    yeh i guess thats a fair point. food for though. may be it adds to the richness of the environment if there are more tribe like people that are out of touch with the thousands of years of Jedi and Sith battles.
    I do believe the focus to be on aspects of the dark and light side of the force though, and less of a social anthropological study.

    no i understand the church of the forces role.
    just the term church is a problem.

    and the expression "ow god" specifically.

    I'm curious as to what your reasons are, around the use of the word church?
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 4, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 4, 2016 ---
    just out of curiosity what are your different reasons? @JayBiggS just to be clear, I myself have no religion.
    And by being divisive it lessens the appeal, hence less people what to watch them, and less get made.
    The broader the appeal, the more we get. lol
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  15. Admiral Petty

    Admiral Petty Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2015
    Posts:
    1,221
    Likes Received:
    4,562
    Trophy Points:
    11,592
    Credits:
    6,344
    Ratings:
    +5,783 / 13 / -0
    Just that I think it sounds to much like an earth term. Nothing about the word church feels like it should be used in Star Wars universe to me, its kind of distracting. I compare its usage to the characters calling their vehicles cars rather than landspeeders, that kind of thing. You do have earth words in Star Wars of course, it is written in English after all ;), Han's ship is the Millennium Falcon for instance. But falcon is a general term used to designate a vast amount of birds that share similar traits, its vague enough that it doesn't bother me. If it were called the Millennium Eagle or the Millennium Osprey, that would be something completely different though.

    For instance, in a recent issue of the Star Wars comic that is currently ongoing at Marvel, one of the characters refers to her ship as the Volt Cobra. That immediately felt off to me because a Cobra is an actual species of snake on earth, had they used a term like snake or serpent instead it wouldn't have bothered me, but actually using the names of earth species is distracting when we are supposed to be in a galaxy far far away. I feel the same way about the word church, its just to earthy sounding for my tastes, and as you brought up, brings to mind certain things and religions that don't exist in Star Wars, heck, Life Day was invented as a substitute for Christmas.

    At the end of the day the use of the word church doesn't completely break anything for me, but I still find it annoying in the same way that I find characters referring to specific earth species of animals annoying. With a little more forethought it could be easily avoided.
     
  16. Travisamo

    Travisamo Rebel General

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2014
    Posts:
    144
    Likes Received:
    276
    Trophy Points:
    3,717
    Credits:
    1,307
    Ratings:
    +451 / 9 / -10
    Oh goodness. There has been Jedi Temples, "Religion" references in A New Hope, Jedi meditation/prayer, Jedi Afterlife/Angels/Ghosts... This fits perfectly and this is a lame anti-Christian, anti-God complaint, in my opinion. Go Star Wars.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Great Post Great Post x 3
    • Wise Wise x 1
  17. Fooled Trooper

    Fooled Trooper Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Posts:
    421
    Likes Received:
    2,288
    Trophy Points:
    8,639
    Credits:
    3,594
    Ratings:
    +2,542 / 23 / -4
    Well with the newest Rebels Episode more religion went canon...

    I think the word Church was the "best" way to describe this new movment...What other name could they have used?

    And I personally see it as normal that about 30 years without a new Jedi Order taking the place in the aspect of an institut of the Force, groups like these happen to arise...

    They may not be Jedi but they want to see the Jedi come back as Peace Keepers and people that can help them...
     
  18. Ammianus Marcellinus

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    Is this serious? "Star Wars" should be kept free of religion? You do understand what Star Wars is about?

    Face it. Star Wars is full of themes and symbolism derived from different world religions. Most of them are from Christianity and Buddhism, but there is also some Hinduism, Islam and New Age stuff in there.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Wise Wise x 3
  19. mrverylongusername

    mrverylongusername Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2015
    Posts:
    212
    Likes Received:
    290
    Trophy Points:
    1,282
    Credits:
    1,015
    Ratings:
    +625 / 13 / -4
    then again Millennium Generic Bird of Prey wouldn't have quite the same ring to it eh? :p
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
  20. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2015
    Posts:
    7,119
    Likes Received:
    10,294
    Trophy Points:
    144,192
    Credits:
    15,675
    Ratings:
    +19,242 / 799 / -292
    "Then I'll see you in hell" - Solo.
    "I do believe they think I am some kind of god." - Threepio
    "You my friend are all that is left of that religion" - Tarkin

    I could go on.

    Of course there is religion in the Star Wars Universe. Of course there would be people that would follow the Jedi ideals without being Jedi.
    It's relevant. It's interesting. It's Star Wars.
     
    • Like Like x 9
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
Loading...

Share This Page