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SPECULATION the church of the force has no place in starwars

Discussion in 'General Movie Discussion' started by FallenAngel, Feb 4, 2016.

?

star wars should be kept free of religion

  1. no church or gods

    10 vote(s)
    19.2%
  2. church and gods

    11 vote(s)
    21.2%
  3. dont care

    31 vote(s)
    59.6%
  1. DFF

    DFF Rebelscum

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    Why then did JJ intentionally make Kylo Ren's lightsaber a flaming crucifix?

    And why did he make his costume resemble that of a monk from the Spanish inquisition?

    Fact is, there are heavy (anti) Christian overtones in the The Force Awakens.

    Unfortunately, it doesn't end there....heavy feminism and anti-Nazi stuff abounds as well.

    Lucas was more subtle with his liberalism/anti-facism....JJ however went full-retard with what can only be described as pure hardcore leftwing propaganda.

    I find it difficult to believe I'm the only one here who noticed these things, which frankly stuck out like a sore thumb.
     
    #61 DFF, Feb 5, 2016
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  2. Background Character

    Background Character Rebel Official

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    You found it difficult to believe you're the only one who noticed them because what you "noticed" is a bunch of BS.

    Could it be that the cross guard lightsaber looks that way to resemble - gee, I don't know - a cross guard sword? The most common sword of the past 2000 or so years?

    His costume is the same basic black robes of any number of pre-existing Sith characters.

    What, exactly about the film is heavily anti-Christian?

    Yeah, it's real hardcore leftwing propaganda to suggest that the Nazis were bad people. Only bleeding heart commie pinkos would suggest that. Totally radical to be against Nazism.

    And God forbid a woman be a main character who can use the force. Total feminist nonsense. Even though we know the force has nothing to do with physical strength or whether you have a penis or not. And we were perfectly willing to accept totally implausible actions and characteristics of the main character when it was a male.
     
    #62 Background Character, Feb 5, 2016
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  3. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Wow interesting thread. Words carry a lot of baggage. I think I'd prefer "followers" too now!

    My lesson from this is not to let anyone use a word such as "God" let alone "church" without getting their term defined first. It can get annoying but there a reason lawyers love their dictionaries and interpretation sections.

    I used to think the same thing until dis-covering that Christianity borrows from ancient stories and mythology in much the same way Star Wars does.

    Thomas Paine puts it well. “The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man called Christ in the place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally paid to the sun.”


    “If Christ was not originally a solar god he wears today the livery of one. His mother, the Virgin, was the mother of the solar gods; his birthday, Christmas, is the birthday of all the gods of the sun; his Twelve Apostles correspond to the twelve signs of the Zodiac; according to the Gospels, at his crucifixion the sun was eclipsed, he expired toward sunset, and rose again with the sun; the day appointed for his worship, the Lord's day, is the dies solis, Sunday, of the sun worshipers; while the principal feasts observed in memory of him were once observed in honor of their goals. "Every detail of the Sun myth," says the noted astronomer, Richard A. Proctor, "is worked into the record of the Galilean teacher." - The Christ, John E. Remsberg (1908)

    Justin Martyr said “When we say that Jesus Christ was produced without sexual union, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended to heaven, we propound nothing new or different from what you believe regarding those whom you call the sons of Jupiter.”

    @master_shaitan eluded to Hercules but it doesn't stop there. I'd never heard of Mithra when I was a Christian. I wonder why...

    “Viewing the biblical Jesus as a pastiche woven from stories of various pagan gods, demigods, and heroes adapted to a first-century Jewish milieu, many scholars have noted striking similarities between Jesus and his pagan counterparts. For example, the Persian sun-god Mithra, widely worshiped in the Roman Empire before the inception of the Christian era, had 12 disciples, performed miracles, was buried in a tomb, rose on the third day, was called the Good Shepherd, identified with the lamb, considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah;" his principal festival was held on what was to become Easter, and he instituted a Eucharist or Lord's Supper.

    When Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Empire in 313 C.E. (Common Era), he was influenced by the pell-mell conversion of Roman soldiers from Mithraism to Christianity. The biblical Jesus gave them a sort of home-grown Mithra.”- Gary Sloan

    I hear you. "Cult" is another interesting word, defined by most dictionaries "as a group of people who worship something." Today it seems to be used as a pejorative for smaller, more deviant groups. The cynical saying "if one person believes something crazy we call them insane, if many do we call that religion" maybe has a little truth to it.
     
    #63 Moral Hazard, Feb 5, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2016
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  4. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Kylo Ren's sabre a burning crucifix? No, a medieval bastard sword. Would you also say that each movie set in the medieval world is ridiculing Jesus' instrument of suffering?

    Spanish inquisition and Kylo Ren? No, his outfit is monkish, but not dominican, just like all the sith and jedi have a monkish outfit. The only outfit that is inspired by the dominican order is Palpatine's outfit in his duel with Yoda in revenge of the sith.

    Anti-Christian overtones in TFA? No. The movie breathes a Jewish-Christian framework mixed up with some Buddhist, Hindu and Islamic elements. Just like all the other star wars movies.

    Heavy feminism? No. It actually inverts feminist tropes and even margializes them in the third act :D

    Anti Nazi stuff? Yes, just like all the star wars movies made by Lucas, J.J. and his team use fascist aesthetics to portray evil. For instance, the visual portrayel of the Starkiller assembly is a direct nod to Riefenstahls depiction of the Neuremberg rally. Lucas included a same nod in Attack of the Clones in his depiction of Palpatine overlooking the departure of the clone army.

    Left/right wing propaganda? You do seem to politicize everything. You did notice everyone is running around with guns because they feel they have a right to do so? If you would translate the movie into actual political thought (which is stupid), then the movie defends Bush's interventionism and direct military action against North Korea and Iran. Politicizing this movie is stupid and you know it. I can say that Lucas portrayel of different characters is racist if I want to. Jar Jar, Watto, the Neimodians, Mace Windu, the Fetts. I can say that his portrayel of women is sexist if I want to. As the movies progress Leia and Padmé become increasingly docile. By the way what do you mean with left-wing propaganda? That woman are as capable as men? That a nigerian-british guy can play a stormtrooper and a lead in a star wars movie? Dislike of fascist aesthetics? Dislike of mass atrocity and the apology of the banality of evil?

    I'm sure you do. This guy and you would make a fine team:
    tumblr_m6wl0kHuTz1r7nc50.gif
     
    #64 Ammianus Marcellinus, Feb 5, 2016
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  5. Rey24B

    Rey24B Rebel General

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    I think that it was during the MF chase on Jakku (when she's flying through the crashed SD). And I thought that she said "oh no."
     
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  6. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Yeah, she says "Oh no".
     
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  7. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    thanks. that's what i hear too in that moment.
     
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  8. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Clone Trooper

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    Bill Moyers Interview:

    MOYERS: What do you make of the fact that so many people have interpreted your work as being profoundly religious?

    LUCAS: I don't see Star Wars as profoundly religious. I see Star Wars as taking all the issues that religion represents and trying to distill them down into a more modern and easily accessible construct--that there is a greater mystery out there. I remember when I was 10 years old, I asked my mother, "If there's only one God, why are there so many religions?" I've been pondering that question ever since, and the conclusion I've come to is that all the religions are true.

    MOYERS: Is one religion as good as another?

    LUCAS: I would say so. Religion is basically a container for faith. And faith in our culture, our world and on a larger issue, the mystical level--which is God, what one might describe as a supernatural, or the things that we can't explain--is a very important part of what allows us to remain stable, remain balanced.
     
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  9. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    yeh gotta go with you on this, cross guard sword for a KNIGHT, looks like a medieval knight (with a bit of star warsyness) nothing more.
    plus rey was kick arse!
     
  10. Rey24B

    Rey24B Rebel General

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    Kylo's lightsaber looks like a medieval broadsword, a VERY common weapon for centuries. It had nothing to do with crucifix's. There's a pseudo-medieval aesthetic to him overall. Also there's medieval/Arthurian undertones throughout as well, and he's the master of a group called the KNIGHTS of Ren, who all wear similar garb.

    His outfit resembles the "monkish' robes that previous Sith have worn. Darth Maul and Sheev come to mind right away.

    I saw NO anti-Christian overtones whatsoever in the movie, NONE!!

    So "Nazi's and their ideology are bad/evil" is suddenly NOT a VERY common idea in fiction? Could have fooled me. Oh and guess what, it IS bad.

    If by "heavy feminism" you mean "why not have a female lead this time, it'd be something different. And yes, perhaps draw in a newer audience that may not have seen/been attached to SW before in the process." Oh the horror, the sheer perfectly logical horror.
     
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  11. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i was truly horrified. i mean...ewwwww....she probably got cooties on the Falcon. [/sarcasm]
     
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  12. Cole

    Cole Force Sensitive

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    Kylo and the KoR look like crusaders....I think that's pretty obvious. I don't know if that means anything...but the armor the helmets the cross-guard saber. They are designed to look like medieval Christian crusaders.

    There was a pretty nice thread about this like a year ago with tons of info and comparisons.
    ...can't find it now.

    But, come on. These guys look like dark Templars. And what was the symbol of the Knights Templar? A red cross...also seen in the picture.

    Like I said, I don't know that it really means anything, but they're obviously based on crusaders.


    [​IMG]
     
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  13. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    i think they look like knights, agreed, but there are lots of knights to draw on. it really doesn't have to go beyond that. we are really not covering new ground with this, they are what they say on the tin. KOR he looks like what he is?
     
  14. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    mordred's fallen knights, not templars. :D Some of those helmets are gothic by the way, late medieval design:
    [​IMG]

    This would be awesome if the knights of Ren pull this off:

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Veradun

    Veradun Clone Commander

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    others have noted that the seven Knights of Ren may be a visual callback to Kurosawa's Seven Samurai. Multiple blog posts and videos making that comparison.
     
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  16. Rey24B

    Rey24B Rebel General

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    Given that SW has always worn it Kuosawa influences on it's sleeve, it would surprise me. Or they're possibly an evil Knights of the Round Table (given the medieval/Arthurian references/undertones that litter the film).
     
  17. DCRocks

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    This, IMO, is the best response to what I feel is self imposed bias by the writer of the OP I saw in the entire thread.

    After all, any claim "church" = "Christianity" is 100% in the eyes of the beholder, and NOT in the term itself.

    After all, there were churches on Earth before Christianity even existed.

    I feel that not only is the reference to a church of the jedi fitting, it flows with the original trilogy perfectly.

    After, it is beyond clear, that Jedi IS a religion in the 1st 3 movies.
     
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  18. Rey24B

    Rey24B Rebel General

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    They're a monastic order that lives in a Temple (they call it a temple) and worship The Force. How are they NOT a religion exactly?
     
  19. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    @Rey24B and @DCRocks have you read the rest of the thread?

    This has been addressed now numerous times, the religion of the force is separate to real world religions.
    Maybe have a skim read of the rest of the thread.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 5, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 5, 2016 ---
    This is the christian population
    Christianity 2.2 billion 31.50%
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

    church has immediate associations and could very easily be changed to something like followers of the force.
    whether you are more educated on the history of the church or not, the fact is, not every one else is. its divisive and needless.

    also i disagree that it flows with the original trilogy, could you explain why you believe this?
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 5, 2016 ---
    when the term church is used, it has an immediate connotation.
    we understand what is implied by the term church, and is a quick way of conveying what the writer whats us to understand.
    These are followers of the force. in a sudo religious (like christian worship type way)
    But the christian overtone that helps us quickly understand the intrinsic meaning of the church of the force, also carries the christian attachment to.
     
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  20. Rey24B

    Rey24B Rebel General

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    Nope, not seeing it. You've yet to provide a shred of convincing evidence for it. Basically, you're grasping at straws here.
     
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