SPECULATION the church of the force has no place in starwars

I like the Mordred's knights idea.
But I think Templars could be a better comparison, because of the ancient cultish impression I've gotten of them. But who knows, we know next to nothing about them.

It's almost as if Star Wars is an amalgam of a myriad of earthy influences...

I guess that's why almost everyone likes it.

 

EDIT: you must have watched that on 4X speed to find it funny already

 

The original knights templar were just a military order like that of the Hospital and knights of Santiago who happened to have a stockpile of money. It was nothing strange religiously, that was an invention made by king Philip and his court which was later picked up new age fanatics like Dan Brown, cultural products like Asassin's creed and others. Not to mention the fascist pigs appropriating the templers as a sort of pseudo-fascists. All invention I'm afraid which has nothing to do with the actual medieval order of the temple. In reality it was a military order of monks who lived by an militaristic adaptation of the cistercian monastic rule. They received many estates and landed wealth as gifts from kings, clerics and lay people. They used this wealth to a. pay their members and maintain their equipment and supplies, b. buy more land, c. provide funds for crusading endavours.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 5, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 5, 2016 ---

Ahhhh Late Antiquity, finally we are discussing Late Antiquity. Constantine identified Sol invictus with Jesus, but he was never explicit in his 'christian' beliefs in public monuments. The construction of Constantine being primarily a christian is a construct created by Eusebius of Caesarea, Osius of Cordoba and Lactantius. Pagans like Ammianus Marcellinus and Julian the apostate construed a different Constantine. They claimed that Constantine's christianity was not sincere and superficial. Both views distorted the fact that all the conteporary evidence points to Constantine identifying the "One true God" and Jesus (co-eternal, co-substantial etc.. etc. to God) with the Sun to whom he often referred as "the divine instinct" or "divine intellect". It is a natural extension of military religion as it developed in the third century: roman soldiers and even the tetrarchic emperors were increasingly verging towards a more psuedo-montheistic and henotheistic form of worship at the end of the third century and turn of the fourth century.

As for Christianity: there is not one version of Christianity. And this was the case in antiquity as much as it is now. These 'christianities' tapped into a cultural context which consisted of different pagan cosmologies, different strands of antique judaism, gnosticism, Iranian dualism and even some Buddhism (Mani). Like any other religion, christianity did not come out of no where and built on what came before. Why do you think the apostles keep quoting "prophecy" from the old testament? Because they wrote their texts in a Jewish context. Paul for example also worked in a graeco-roman context, hence the many parellels and references to classical culture.

The same with Star Wars and Lucas views on religion and the force. He builds on what came before and what he sees in religions around him. Abrams et. al. build on Lucas views of the force, but their view is also distinct from Lucas. For instance, Abrams et. al. view of the force is much more based on Rabbinic wisdom tales and jewish concepts of light and dark, good and evil, than Lucas' view of the force.

There you go.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 5, 2016 ---

If any of my students would hand in a paper like that I would give it an F. I do think it's funny. I debunk this stuff for a living, and so allows me to buy many more hot toys limited edition Stormtroopers

 

Approaching this from a different angle, the use of the term church might be inappropriate because LST and co were around during a time when it was blasts fly obvious and provable that the Force existed. Thus the Jedi were an order not a religion and the Force itself didn't require faith to believe in it.

So in that sense, followers, disciples or devotees would be better terms. I also saw the term "religion" as being used in a derogatory way in the OT to suggest that the Force doesn't really exist and is irrelevant. It would make more sense for a Church of the Jedi to establish itself at this point as its followers might believe there to be a Force that has a will and speaks to its followers BUT they wouldn't have proof. Does that make sense?

 

I think the idea of a Church of the Force is interesting. It gives non-Jedi or Sith people the opportunity to be spiritual. In The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary it says that Lor San Tekka is a member of the Church of the Force, so the idea of him being a non-force user but very aware of the nature of the force and its history is a pretty cool thing. This could be why he knows Ben Solo and has ties to the Jedi.

 

It really should read "lack of ethics". I agree the word church is not SW but so is "hell" (mentioned by Han Solo).

 

...you think Zeitgeist's portion on Christianity is accurate then?

 

Thanks for the clarification/detail/historical context in your post. It'll likely reward multiple re-reads - although I'm still digesting Mordred!

These days I just view all stories (histories included) as just that - stories. I don't mean that as a pejorative or in a dismissive way toward history. It just helps me keep a humble inquirer mentality I guess. These stories (Lucas' included) all inform each other, are fascinating, entertaining but can be so very powerful!

I watched a Q & A the other day with Yuval Noah Harari, Lecturer in World History Hebrew University of Jerusalem (previously a military historian). I found his perspective on "imagined realities" illuminating:

“My impression, with some exception, is [that] the vast majority of human conflicts during history were not about food, were not about mates, were not about actual scarcity - they were about the stories in peoples minds. If you think about the conflict in my country, there is plenty of food between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River - you can feed everybody. There is no scarcity of food, there is no scarcity even of territory - everybody can build their houses. But the problem is you have two very different stories and so far we didn't have the fortune to have this genius storyteller who could come up with the third story and have everybody agree. The same can be said of WW1 - there was enough food in Europe in 1914. Form this perspective I think if we are able to change the stories in peoples minds then many of these conflicts can be solved. However it is very difficult to change the stories in peoples minds.”

Then there's the modern philosopher/comedian Doug Stanhope:
"It's all just dead people's baggage. Quit carrying it."

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 5, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 5, 2016 ---

Sorry Jay I'm not ignoring your post here, bandwidth rationing prevents me from viewing the media you shared.

 

No worries!

 

So most posters here seem to agree that religion, churches, and cults make sense in the Star Wars universe although there's differing opinion on the perceived use/misuse of the terminology.

This angle shows some astute thinking!

I'm going to try another tangent/thought experiment and try to view The Church of The Force (TCOTF) through a lens of perceived sacredness [specialness] and separation from nature. I'm no New Ager but it could make for a suitable analysis here.

According to Star Wars lore, “The Force penetrates and binds the galaxy together”. If The Force is sacred then every part of nature becomes sacred by default. I liken this to some Paganism, some Animism and to a great line in a Wendel Berry's poem: “There is nothing un-sacred. There is only the sacred and the desecrated.” - How To Write A Poem (To remind myself)

Then there's Star Wars science. As far as we know, non-Force Sensitive's cannot use science to harness/manipulate The Force. But scientific methodology could also be interpreted as reducing sacredness down to that which is quantifiable. It also has it's own weaknesses and limitations - if you can't measure it, science has nothing to say about it.

Then there's the Star Wars [Religious?] Orders (Jedi, Sith, COTF?) who add their ethical codes and guidelines to their knowledge of The Force in order to better understand or control their relationship with it. This entails focusing primarily on the exclusive aspects that best suit the adherents philosophy/moral guidelines.

To me this echoes some of Earth's history. Charles Eisenstein has an interesting take on this: “Following the same deep ideology of their scientific brethren, the religious authorities have sought to isolate sacredness as well, limiting it to bibles, crosses and churches. The furthest extreme of our separation coincides in [religions] genesis with it's scientific counterpart originating in the 16th and 17th centuries. The Protestant Movement progressively excluded the divine from more and more of the human world. Earlier the Catholic Church had removed divinity from ordinary people, now the Protestant reformers began to remove it from Mother Mary and the Saints as well so that all that was left of our pantheistic world was a single isolated mote of divinity embodied by Jesus Christ.” - The Ascent of Humanity





So my point is this - how might the Church of The Force fit into this analysis?

• Does it's ideology reduce sacredness down to exclusive aspects (light/dark side dichotomy) like institutionalized churches in this universe?

• Does it's ideology encompass the sacredness of The Force in all it's manifestations much like the so-called “Grey Jedi”? (If so perhaps "church" could be a misnomer.)

• Or is it just part of a broader attempt at understanding how their universe works? More akin perhaps to scientists, “truth seekers”, and perhaps even the goals of those male ancestors who's Bronze Age interpretations of the world are somehow still revered by many as extra sacred today.

 

@FallenAngel The fact is the word isn't even used in the movie. If you have a problem with "earthly" words being used in the Star Wars Universe, I suggest you watch more Star Trek.

What has made Star Wars popular is that it IS relatable. It is Universal to the humans that consume it. Star Wars has the ability to meld religions and beliefs and morals and symbols into something that can speak to anyone. That is what makes it the ultimate fairy tale.

Remember, it's fiction.

Besides, I think you are applying the more common yet incorrect definition of the word church.

"The word “church” comes from the Greek word ekklesia which is defined as “an assembly” or “called-out ones.” The root meaning of “church” is not that of a building, but of people."

On a different note, I wonder if when Luke was searching for the last Jedi TEMPLE. He was actually looking for this....

 

I disagree that it doesn't belong... I just don't like the name.

Aftermath introduced the "Disciples of the Beyond."
It sounds way better that "Church of the Force."

 

I get it. You think using words you prefer helps it appeal to you. I certainly don't think using different verbiage would give it broader appeal.

The fact is, the broader appeal is exactly why they used the word church. You see, more people know what a church is. It's easy to understand the type of people they are talking about when using a familiar word like church. Again, church of the force users are a GROUP, not Christians and not a building. When you understand that they didn't need to use a different word just to appeal to your sense of anti-Christianity, then you'll sleep better at night.

The only words that have no place are sh**, fu**, a**, etc.

I'd also say that since the Visual Dictionary has been selling like hot cakes and the movie made over 2 billion, they understand what words they need to use for broader appeal.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 6, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 6, 2016 ---

Part of me thinks it's just what they became known as and that was the name that stuck. This small group of force worshippers were fairly simple people and very private. In Rey's Survival guide, it talks about Rey going to their village only one time and it was to deliver a message or something. Since they followed the Jedi teachings, I'm sure they were an interesting group. Back to the name, I think it's simple and straightforward, to match the group of people it's named after. If they used Diciples, it would imply a much more devout group in my opinion.

 

I don't have a problem with it.

 

Yes, mr. Hayden White approves of this message and I approve it too I'm on the narrative side of things in my historical research. That's why the archaeology section does not always like me. They want 100% verification, I say that such a thing is folly. As there are for Constantine three realities which all operate on an equal level: the pagan view, the christian view (nicene and arian), and his own court propaganda in material culture and panegyric. Three imagined realities, but non more real than the other and not always having the coherence some would like. That's also why I pointed out different and changing views on the Force. George Lucas vision in the 70s and 80s was different from Lucas' ideas in 90s and early 2000s. Abrams, Arndt and Kasdan's views from 2012-2015 are again different from George Lucas previous ideas. The ideas about the force and "religion" in Star Wars evolve, but none of these ideas takes privilege over the others. Each representation has equal value. So, I'm on your team.

I like those quotes. Master Yoda approves of your wisdom.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 6, 2016 ---

I give you an A+. Yoda likes this post too!

 

Honestly, I kind of think you are trolling a bit.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 6, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 6, 2016 ---

My best friend went to Temple all the time. He was a Jewish kid. When I hear the word Temple, I think of Judaism, but not when I'm watching Star Wars. You know why? Because it's a movie. A movie about spiritual powers of dark and light. I'm smart enough to understand they aren't talking about The Methodist CHURCH down the street.

So I say to you, the only way it's devisive is because you want it to be.