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SPECULATION the church of the force has no place in starwars

Discussion in 'General Movie Discussion' started by FallenAngel, Feb 4, 2016.

?

star wars should be kept free of religion

  1. no church or gods

    10 vote(s)
    19.2%
  2. church and gods

    11 vote(s)
    21.2%
  3. dont care

    31 vote(s)
    59.6%
  1. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Yeah. This kind of relates to the idea of the Jedi being myths from the OT onwards. If you think too deeply you wonder how would everyone not know the Jedi and the Force were real?! Was there not some form of television? Video evidence of Jedi doing crazy blast? Probably shouldn't think too deeply about some things.

    But yeah, followers is more apt. But "church" doesn't offend me. Like I said, I get why they used the term.
     
  2. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    We don’t follow scientific experiments and say we are followers of a religion.
    you can study with out any implied worship. that to me is the followers of the force.
    They are taking teachings, that have quantifiable results and trying to preserve them. either for there own application or until a new strong force user comes along.
     
  3. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Yeah I agree.

    However, it could be that the Church of the Jedi actually believe the Force is a God that bestows these powers upon Jedi almost as miracles. I'm not sure we know enough yet to judge it. It wasn't even a term used in TFA.
     
  4. General_Tarkin

    General_Tarkin Rebel General

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    Im not gonna argue about christianity or other religions here, but in Star Wars the Force itself has no visual evidence.
    Why? Because the imperials, Han Solo (who all lived when the jedi were still active) and tons of other people dont belive in it.
    The problem is that there is a huge contradiction about this topic in the OT and the PT.
    In the OT the jedi were misterious, and the force supposed to be something only they know and follow with religious belief (I found your lack of FATH disturbing).
    In the PT the Jedi Temple were on the middle of fckin Coruscant and the jedi were like celebrities, so logically the force should have been considered as scientifically proved entity in the Republic.
    So my theory is that the scientists of the Rebublic belived that the jedi gain their abilities from some undiscovered anomaly or method (gene mutation or something like that), not the energy-field, and the force slowly became something like a religion. Maybe even the jedi were sceptical about it, some dvelved themseves to the midiclorians (the material site of th force) like Qui-gon, and some rather to its metaphysical form, like Yoda.
    This is just a theory btw, the OT and the PT have so many contradictions it would take hours to list them all (this is a very big one tho).
     
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  5. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    no, i find it consistent that there are isolated nomadic groups of people that have no first hand knowledge of the central figures in a war 30 years past.
    With no new jed and sith emerging to prominence, i could see how there would be myth like tales surrounding the jedi or sith then.
     
  6. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    But the Church of the Jedi existed during the PT era and acted when the Empire tried to destroy Jedi lore.
     
  7. General_Tarkin

    General_Tarkin Rebel General

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    It was already a myth in episode IV to Han and the imperials (all lived when the jedi were still active, Tarkin was around 40 who calls the force and the jedi a religion, and Han was around 10 during ep III who dosent belive either). Outside of Obi-wan noone seems to belive in it.
    Its a huge inconsistency.
     
  8. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    i think there has been a misquoting of Vaders use of the word Faith.
    with the exception of @General_Tarkin

    Vader: “don’t be to proud of this technological terror you have constructed, the ability to destroy a plant it is insignificant next to the power of the force
    officer: Don’t try to frighten us with your sorcerous ways lord vader your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you find the stolen data tapes….”

    Vader: “i find your lack of faith disturbing”

    faith in this context means faith in Vaders ability to find the missing data, because he has not through clairvoyance found the missing tapes.

    Vader then demonstrates his use of the force by choking him?

    You are trying to make the point that faith means in a quantifiable existence of the force, but this is obvious when looked.
    Vader imediatly demonstrates the force is real, by choking him with it.
     
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  9. Marco Calrissian

    Marco Calrissian Clone Commander

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    We take as true without thinking that the jedi can use the force, but that's because the movies are from their prospective, we never saw how the normal people of the galaxy judge the jedi, probably they think they are great worriors, but nothing more, and that's because most of them never even saw a jedi. The Jedi at their prime were 10 thousands, and in a galaxy with thousands of planets it's not that much.
    I think that the jedi are to the people of the SW galaxy what monks are to us, they do crazy things and they say they can do that thanks to the "chi"(basically their inner energy), but most of the people just think it's a lot of training and cheats.
    Think about it, if there is a video about someone lifting a chair with his mind would you believe it? would you even believe it if that person lifted something with his mind in front of you? I don't think so, it's more likely that you'll search for the trick.
     
  10. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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    yeh think we are talking two slightly different things here.
    the myth surrounding central figures, like rey says "luke skywalker i thought he was a myth"
    And the expositional way the Sith and Jedi groups were referenced to show they were once a major force and seen by the uninitiated as a sudo religion" but had virtually destroyed there selfs?
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 6, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 6, 2016 ---
    Don't make me laugh. have you found this. maybe you should inform the world at large, lol
    also, what is MY definition of christianity?
     
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  11. General_Tarkin

    General_Tarkin Rebel General

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    There were 10000 jedi in the Old Republic, for more than a thousand generations, they lived on the central planet like celebrities (in the sight of futuristic media and space internet probably). And they also involved themselves in politics and lead the armies of the Republic. So yes, in the PT everybody knew who they are and what they do. Which is a huge contradiction with the OT's mysterious jedi and force idea.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 6, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 6, 2016 ---
    Oh, I see, sorry to interupt then. I was talking about the force in general.
    Luke Skywalker as a myth was the central idea of JJ about TFA. I think its a good idea tho, as the new characters are like we, the fans. To them Luke, Han, Leia are known people, legends.
     
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  12. Marco Calrissian

    Marco Calrissian Clone Commander

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    they were known as warriors and for their political influence, that doesn't mean that they were going around using their force powers in public (since the jedi should use the force only when they have to)
    In addition for 1000 years there were no Sith, no big battles and no armies of the republic to lead, so not many chances to display their force abilities around the galaxy, thing that probably brought normal people to think the jedi were just wise warriors with a lot of political influence and the force was just a bielief or a religion.
     
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  13. General_Tarkin

    General_Tarkin Rebel General

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    During the 1000 generations (AND NOT YEARS!!!!!) people wrote probably thousands of books, space documentaries etc about the jedi and the source of their powers. The jedi might've had cults following them or against them (like in CW). The Jedi Temple was on Coruscant where everybody saw what they do and how. Just imagine if jedi were in the US senate. Would there be a single person in the world who wouldn't know who they are and what is the source of their powers? Ofc not.
    And the jedi must've warned the Senate and the Republic about the possible dangers of the dark side and the sith, so in the PT everbody had to know about the force aswell. And btw during the 1000 generations there were countless battles and wars against the sith, if you follow the EU (Kotor, anyone?).
     
    #133 General_Tarkin, Feb 6, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2016
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  14. FallenAngel

    FallenAngel Rebelscum

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  15. Law Regnab

    Law Regnab Clone

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    Well said.

    You question Vader and the force he shows proof.

    You question christianity ... welll ... it was a good book.
     
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  16. Marco Calrissian

    Marco Calrissian Clone Commander

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    the jedi were guardians of peace and justice in the old republic for a thousand generations, but the Sith were gone for a thousand years in the time of TPM, and without them there were no big wars in the galaxy, so for a thousand years the jedi had little to do, this is what I was trying to say ;)
    A thousand years are enough to make people change prospective on something, how many things that happened not even 1000 years ago but 300 years ago are obscure to us now? I think that people heard that they used the force, but I also think that most of the people just thought the force was a belief and that the jedi were just great warriors that used some technology device to "force push" things or jump and run faster than a normal person.
     
  17. Admiral Petty

    Admiral Petty Force Sensitive

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    Ugh, some of the posts here have gotten a little ugly... I actually am a religious person, but I see absolutely no point in debating religion on a Star Wars forum. Obviously no one is going to change their world views based upon the posts of an anonymous stranger in an internet forum, hence the reason it is pretty much common knowledge that it is pointless to debate things like religion or politics on internet discussion boards(especially in a forum dedicated to a different subject). In other words people, whether you are religious or not, be the bigger person and avoid making snide comments about those who believe differently on a Star Wars forum ;).

    People definitely knew of the Jedi and who they were, their legend even spread beyond the borders of the Republic. But its also important to remember that just because people are aware of something that they don't necessarily believe everything about it. The fact is, regardless of how long they've been around, actual Force Users have always been an extremely rare thing in the galaxy. Many people have a "I'll believe it when I see it" mentality and would therefore likely believe that the legends of the Jedi were exaggerated, although you would also have the opposite end of the spectrum where people would view them as godlike figures with exaggerated power sets.

    Regardless of how people viewed their actual powers, most would also view them as a religious group that is different from the rest of the galaxy and would likely be somewhat fuzzy on where the Jedi and Sith stood in terms of politics and good and evil. One's feelings on that subject could largely be affected based on how they viewed the Republic as well, something demonstrated excellently in the Legends trilogy about Darth Bane. The fact is, even an order as prominent as the Jedi would be viewed as somewhat aloof by the general public, most of whom will never even see one in real life.
     
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  18. Law Regnab

    Law Regnab Clone

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    Fallen Angel speaks the truth.

    Certain things in the GFFA strike us all on a different cord that relates to real life. That is why we all love it for different reasons.

    We can argue about it. We can fight about it. But at the end of the day we all love it.

    That being said my favorite line was this when Vader was arguing... Vader "escape is not part of his plan."

    The POWER in those words sums up what it means to be a Jedi in TGFFA! To be Vader! And Vader felt it, new it, and in the end gave his life for it.

    "let me look at you with my own eyes."

    I have a feeling Luke is pissed off and wants his daddy back.
     
    #138 Law Regnab, Feb 6, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2016
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  19. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    Have YOU found evidence to the contrary? There is only one definition of Christianity.

    My personal opinion is you created this controversial thread to self-promote you little YouTube channel.
     
  20. Law Regnab

    Law Regnab Clone

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    I dont know fallen angel and I dont know you. One thing i do know is you claim facts that are not proven and fallen angel calls you out on it.

    Simple truth.
     
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