SPECULATION the church of the force has no place in starwars

they want us to all pray to jesus FA.

 

ironically, despite the physical evidential manifestation of the powers of the Force, lots of people in the Star Wars universe don't believe in it.

 

There are countless non-Christian texts that prove the man Jesus Christ of Nazareth walked this Earth. Whether or not you believe he is the messiah is one thing, but there are mountains of evidence if you actually take the time to educate yourself. I'm not going to debate that on this board. Fallen Angel can call out all he wants, he's a troll in my opinion. I don't need to prove anything to anyone. Apparently you and him just want to prove other's wrong, which is no different than me trying to convert you to Christ.

Take a deep breath and enjoy Star Wars and stop being controversial. That goes for @FallenAngel as well.

 

there are evidences that show how some places, people and happenings in the bible are truth, this doesn't mean that everything is true or that is false, can't you guys just let everyone their belief without judging?
especially if you (as myself) are atheists you should let people think what they want on this argument, or you'll not be different from some religious people that judge others because they don't have their same belief.

now can we go back to the jedi and the force in the SW galaxy?

 

@FallenAngel says the word church is devisive. I say attitudes and behaviors are devisive, not nouns like church.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 6, 2016 ---

Thank you Marco. Let's debate the Star Wars Universe. Not religion or who's got evidence of what. That is a pointless debate.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2016 ---

Please re-read. I wasn't responding to you on this.

 

It's your attitude man. You are here to argue your Athiest point of view and promote your YouTube channel while demeaning others who don't agree with you. That's simply not cool. I've never tried to prove or debate religion. You and some others have. I will not be baited into a debate with you. You want to convert me and others to your thinking, which is also not cool.

This thread will be locked soon so enjoy your last few minutes of SWNN fame.

 

A thousand generations, not years. The jedi were in the Repbulic for a thousand generations (around 25.000 years) not 1000. Why do you keep quoting that false number? Lucas forgot his own movies when he wrote years instead of generations in the script of atoc. I know people made up some ridiculous excuses about it, but imo it was simply a fck up (judging from the many other inconsistencies, and the quality of the PT scripts).

Alright, lets say we are in the medieval times on Earth. There are buddhist shaolin monks somehere in China, a country the average people arent even sure exists. We dont know who they are and what they do.
Now we are in the 20th century, people all around the world starting to hear about them, how great warriors they are. Now we are in 2016, I search for shaolin warriors in youtube and I get to see their whole lives, what they do, how, what is the QI and what they belive about it. I can buy dozens of books about them in the bookstore on the next street. Or I just buy an e-book and there I got to chose from hundreds of different books. And most people know who they are and what they do only after 100 years after their worldwide discovery.

Now, imagine if shaolin monks were deeply incarcerated with your country's culture and 10.000 of them would live in the middle of the fckin capital city in a giant temple, AND they would also involve themselves in politics, and lead your country's armies during wars. And ofc, lets assume they do this for 25.000 years (rounghly since the birth of your contry). I think every single person would know who they are and what the force is, it would probably be the first thing kids would learn in schools. Noone ever would be so stupid to question anything about them, as clearly 25.000 years of experience would be enough.

,,Many people have a "I'll believe it when I see it" mentality". I've never seen a taiwanese person in live, but I know they exist. No living person on the palnet have seen Franz Joseph of Austria, but everybody know he existed.
Dont act like the people in the Republic would be mentally challenged. If the jedi indeed use a mystical power called the force (and clearly they can prove it any time), than the dark side of the force is a real danged and every people have to know about it. In the futuristic media-wonderland of the Republic everybody can see videos, holograms on the space- internet, and other clear evidences of the force. And again, if the force is real, than the dark side, and the sith are also real, so everybody have to be aware of them, in case they would try to take over with their mind-control. But still, noone has to rely on secondary sources, everybody can visit them on the capital of the Repbulic. Its not like they hide what they do and how.

Not to mention what they do during peace time... The prequels didnt show anything about their peace-time activities, but assuming from what Obi-wan said in ep IV (guardians of peace and justice) they visit all corners of the Republic and help. All this for 25.000 years, so please dont try to tell me anyone would look at them as only warrior of some unknown ancient religion.
If the jedi would be eliminated for hundreds of years for instance and the Empire would've tried to erease them from history (if its even possible) than I would say, ok Its unlikely, but I belive it.
But please, even General Tarkin in ep IV said the force is only a religion, when he was around 40 during epsiode III and he has seen the jedi with his own eyes. Or Han Solo, he was 10 in ep III but dosnet belive neither the force or the jedi, after travelling through the galaxy. This is just nonsense, inconsistencial writing.
According to PT logic, the jedi were celebrities and the force was well known by every citizen of the Republic and beyond (like onTatooine).
According to OT logic, the jedi were mystical, mostly unknown and the force is something only they know and follow with religious belief.
Im sorry, but the two can't coegsist. This is one of the many many major incoherencies between the two trilogies.

 

Again, I said the jedi were in the republic for 1000 generations, but the Stih were gone for "only" 1000 YEARS, it was said by the jedi council in the phantom menace.
This is a fact in the SW universe, there is no way to deny it, even if you don't like it

Even if shaolin monks would go around showing the use of Chi, no one would belive it's true except the few that can actually use it.
You wouldn't belive a video with someone displaying a mental power, and that's because you would think it's a fake video, and if he displays the same power in front of you'll think he's using some trick.

Another point is that the jedi thought the Sith were extinct, there were no risk in their eyes for some one to use the dark side to hurt people, actually it would have been a risk to spread the knowledge of the force outside the jedi order, since someone could start searching for informations about the Sith and becoming a dark side force users himself, bringin terror again to the galaxy.

on tatooine they knew that the jedi were great warriors and that they use "mind tricks" that doesn't mean they know of the force, it's a big galaxy and the technology is really advance, why would I beleave they can do what they do because of "the force" and not because of some other reason, for exemple a technological improvment installed in their bodies?

 

That is not true.
Palpatine in aotc: ,,I won't let this Republic which STOOD FOR A THOUSAND YEARS let be split in two." ==> That means the Republic is only 1000 years old, no mention of the jedi there.
Ben Kenobi in ANH: ,,For over a thosand generations the jedi knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic" (pre-empire era) ==> That means the Republic is at least 25.000 years old (can be more) and the jedi serve there for a thousand generations.

About the rest what you've written. Do you belive Pluto exists? You've never seen it your eyes only on pictures. I guess you still belive it does. Do you belive gravity exists? Its only a theory, but if you jump off a cliff you will feel its pretty much real.
Its the same with the force, even if some woulnt've seen them with their own eyes, after 25.000 years noone would deny their existence. And if the jedi exist the force also does. It would be damn retarded to think the people of the Republic forgot to mention the power source of the jedi. People arent stupid, the jedi use a giant energy-field as the source of their power, scientists and even regular people would do anything to know more about it. If you've ever met a jedi wouldn't the force be the first thing you would think about? Its the same in the Republic, ever since the jedi were discovered (roughly 25.000 years before TPM) the foce have to be a well known, and researched entity by ever single person in the Republic.

Its even more stupid to assume that the jedi and the Republic wouldn't be aware of the dark side and its possible dangers sources because 1, the force wasnt in balance (prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the force means there is an imbalance for an unknown period) 2, The dark side always is a threat to the jedi and one can turn at any time. And he sith isnt the only danger I asume. 3, If the sith were danger 1000 years before TPM, the dark side and the force still exist, and if the jedi warned the Republic about it 1000 years ago, so why would anyone forget about it?

And so on. We could argue all day, but imo if 10.000 jedi would've lived on Coruscant for more than 25.000 years and they would also have seat in the Senate, and lead the Republic's armies in wartimes people must've known about them and the force aswell.

 

ok maybe I cannot explain myself well: I don't care for how many years the republic itself was up and for how many time the jedi were part of it (if 1000 generations as obi wan said, or 1000 years as suggested in the PT), the Sith were gone for 1000 years and during that period there was peace, and although it is said only in the PT, there is nothing that contraddicts this in the original trilogy.

I can see pluto if I have a good telescope and clear sky, and I can prove the existence of gravity with laws (gravity is not a theory right now, is a scientific law, and that means that was proven through multiple experiments and not only mathematics formulas) and experiments in wich I'm not directly involved.
To convince someone that the force exists I should show him what I can do with it, because only few has a connection with the force and can feel it, so it's a completely different thing.
And yes, people aren't stupid, but if there is somone that most of the people cannot understand and that no one can really prove in an objective way with some experiment, than they'll try to deny it or, in some extrime cases and if they feel it's something that could hurt them, to destroy it (see the witch hunt during the medieval age)

Yes the dark side is a threat in any moment, and if someone is not guided he'll probably fall to the dark side. This is the reason why the jedi should not spread the knowledge of the force in the galaxy and shuould instead try to keep it a mistery and a religion to the people outside the order.
What would be the point of explain to everyone that the force works if most of the people cannot really understand or use it? Those people will not be able to defend themself even of they know what a Sith can do, and someone would try to use it for his own benefit, becoming a danger for everyone. Everyone believing in the force would actually bring more dangers then benefits to the galaxy.

they would not forget about the Sith themselves, they just wouldn't believe the force is a real thing, it's a big differnce. And 1000 years are enough for a world to forget things, there are a lot of things that people thought were true just 200 years ago and now no one believe.

[/QUOTE]
ok, I guess we have differnt points of view
(I'm curious about one thing, if there were no prequels, would you still find strange, since Obi Wan said that the jedi were guardians of peace and justice in the old republic for 1000 generations, that the force wasn't known in the galaxy? Or it was just the way it was shown in the prequels?)

 

Star Wars already has religious influence in it so why does the church of the force matter.

 

There is a huge contradiction about the age of the Republic and that is what I was talking about. Obviously there is no contradiction about the sith when there is absolutely zero mention about the sith in the OT.

I meant seeing Pluto with your own eyes. About gravity. I didnt mean to bring this up (Im a physicist btw), and this is a hard question, but I will try to explain it. When we are talking about gravity, we can talk about the law of gravity that would describe the attraction between two different objects( for that we use Newton's law of universal gravitation, where we already have problems with provement), but we can also talk about the theory of gravity which describes WHY or HOW objects attract each other (for that we use Einstein's theory of general relativity, which has even more problems).
In experimental science, a theory can never be proved, only DISPROVED by experiment. The problem is mostly when when gravitons, gravity waves, and quantum mechanics also come in sight, thats where the serious blast starts to happen, and those are why we still call it a theory. But please dont make me talk about this on a star wars forum.

However I did not meant to talk about this. What I meant was that you said in your previous comments that if you would watch a video, witness report or document about the jedi you still wouldn't belive in the force because those could be fake. But now you belive what experimental science tells you despite you didnt do the experiment yourself. So, if the countless books, documents, holograms (remember, we arent talking about medieval times, but a futuristic mediaworld with space internet along with its space social networs) or whatever sources regarding the force would tell the people in the Republic about it, they would also belive.
And if the force is indeed an energy-field like Yoda said, its measurable, so it could be proven a lot easier than gravity.

No, they should tell the people that the force is real and at any time a sith or a corrupted force-sensitive person could come and create an economical crysis, star a war, or take over control because they can mind-control people and see the future. Beause of those pretty important reasons every single people must be aware of them and the force. They couldn't defend themselves indeed, but they at least would know what happened, and who to turn help for. And the goverment itself would be pretty damn aware of that aswell in the fear of an anarchy or the lose of their control, so im pretty sure the force would be the very first thing written and taught in school text-books.

To this see my previous answer.

This isnt really a question of point of views, but rather simple logic. If so many people can meet the jedi (especially when there is 10.000 of them who live in the middle of the central planet for more than 25.000 years) everyone must've known about the force.

Before the prequels there was a lot different view about the jedi in the Republic. We believed they were very mystical and hard to meet, they live on different parts of the galaxy, maybe like a solitary monk (like Yoda). Only very few people met them during the thousand generations and even they werent sure know who they are exactly and what they do (this was the logical assumption based on the originals).
But Lucas forgot what he worte in the OT and suddenly the jedi becase celebrities who have seat in the Senate and lead the armies of the Republic.
Judging by those conditions Han Solo and the imperials must've had very serious amnesia not to remember who the jedi are and what the force is (considering he was 10 during ep III).

 

Good questions, FallenAngel.

I believe it's the observational part of science -- the empirical data, the Scientific Method -- where any study of the Force would fall short of qualifying as a discrete science.

To me, the Force is complex and mysterious, empowering as it can be elusive, and what it reveals is often personal, open to interpretation, dreamlike, and rarely of such a documentable and objective nature that it could be studied academically and worked all the way down to equations, algorithms, etc.

This is why, after 800 years of training Jedi, Yoda, the true Master Jedi he is, has no final knowledge of the Force or full command of its powers.

Were it merely a scientific phenomenon, the Force could lend itself to methodical study, experimentation, and over decades (not likely hundreds of years in this highly technological world with sentient robotics who could assist in such research) the mysteries of a more scientifically-conducive Force would be replaced with a logic-based system of knowledge much like physics or mathematics.

But the Force is abstract, metaphysical, defying quantification, and can work in enigmatic ways, escaping the regular prediction scientists would enjoy once a firm theory were in place, testable, and producing a range of expected correlations and results.

This is also why there are Gray Jedi, and others yet, who might see inconsistencies with the way the Jedi and the Sith study and use the Force.

Even in the Jedi Order there were those, such as Qui-Gon Jinn who openly held dissenting views of the Force and could debate with and challenge other Jedi with their own experiences and questions.

JediMasterRobert

 

Two points come immediately to mind:

- In terms of canon, the prequels don't take a backseat to the OT, no matter what you personally may think. Any exploration of the Force going forward is going to include what we learned in the prequels.

- We're not going to get into a science v. religion debate here.

Beyond that I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. The Church of the Force was a group of people who believed in the power of the Force and its importance in the galaxy. Seems very Star Wars to me.