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The Confusing Philosophy of The Last Jedi

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Suborn, Mar 1, 2018.

  1. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

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    And you're placing some kind of negative connotation onto this, in order to back your opinion?

    You do realize that quote translates to "The direction of Luke's character is not up to me, and I accept that," NOT "I reject this version of Luke Skywalker,"...........right???

    Mark coming to terms with Luke's character direction not being up to him, holds no implication on the quality of the film.

    As for his opinion, Mark has clearly stated he very much likes the film. Second to ESB.

    Why has the fact that someone would question another person's choice, created such a negative apocalypse? Questioning things should be a part of life. Always. It's part of having godd*** common sense.

    So for the upteenth time:

    Stop.

    Manipulating.

    Mark's.

    Words.



    Stop.
     
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  2. Contreras1991

    Contreras1991 Rebelscum

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  3. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

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    Can you clarify what your point is?
     
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  4. The Nerf Herder!

    The Nerf Herder! Rebel General

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    1. TLJ shows that you don't have to have a high medichlorian count to be a Jedi. It falls in line with the OG trilogy's theme of the force surrounding all life and binding it together. These are sequels to the OG trilogy's fantastical explination of the force, not the prequels scientific explanation of it. There may have been a large number of Jedi, but a miniscule number when compared to the size of the galaxy.
    2. How is failure not the greatest teacher? Rey did fail at most everything she set out to do in this film. She went to Acht-to to bring Luke back to help the resistance AND FAILED. Rey went to Kylo in order to turn him back to the light AND FAILED. She failed at her two largest goals in this film as if she is perfect and people overlook that.
    3. The heroism is very much still alive. This film just shows that those heroes are not always successful and are often naive, but grow to become leaders.
    4. This is the first I'm hearing about Kylo supposed to be relateable and represenative of young adults now. That sounds like something from an angsty teen magazine :D.
     
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  5. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebel Commander

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    You're in for a rude awakening when Infinity War and the sequel come friend.
     
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  6. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    Or take a look at YouTube. "Hot takes" on how Black Panther is actually awful are now constanstly appearing in my "Recommended" section on YT.
     
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  7. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    This statement reminds me of the famous picture of Johnson and the mini-sign saying "Your Snoke theory sucks." I enjoyed that when I first saw it. I saw him as taunting us in a good natured way, as if to say "wait 'til you see the truth!!" So what did he ultimately give us in that regard? Absolutely nothing.

    I think what he did was the height of gutlessness: He taunts us for having bad theories, and then completely dodged the whole matter in his movie.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 1, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 1, 2018 ---
    You've seen those movies? How is he in for a rude awakening?
     
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  8. Contreras1991

    Contreras1991 Rebelscum

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    Point? none, I'm just complementing what you said about Mark's words, even he is already somewhat pissed that they use his words out of context to attack the movie
     
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  9. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

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    Ah ok! Yes he has. On multiple occasions.
     
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  10. Legend Knight

    Legend Knight Force Sensitive

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    I know the direction was not up to him that was far from my point. I have no earthly idea why you are so riled up. Mark Hamill is quoted as saying this is not my Luke Skywalker and I just said I totally agree with him on that front. If this is your idea of Luke then by all means, I am envious of you.
     
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  11. DuckDuckSith

    DuckDuckSith Rebel Trooper

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    Great post! It's this kind I enjoy as they always lead to great discussions.

    The reason why the theme of failure being the greatest teacher fails in this movie is because it's missing the consequences of failure.
    None of the failures of the main cast: Rose, Finn, Poe and Rey all fail in this movie, but everybody else pays the consequences. Practically everybody in the rebellion dies, but nothing happens to the main cast but don't worry, they learned lessons, and they'll do better next time. ( with new rebels to suffer the consequences of their failures).
    In contrast, Luke and Anakin suffered negative consequences when they failed (chopping hands off, seems to be a popular punishment in star wars).

    Failure and the consequence of failure can be used to make characters that might be hard to relate to otherwise. Everybody has suffered failure and had to deal with the consequences so seeing characters go through these experiences allows people to relate to their plights. But in the ST nobody important suffers any kind of real and long lasting repercussions for their failures which, at least for me, has the opposite effect and alienates me.
     
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  12. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    I really liked your thoughtful post @Suborn.
    Apologies for the length of my response too!
    The Force in TLJ is the same as in any SW film - equal parts power (mysterious gift) and responsibility (character agency).
    All that changes is character perspective/opinions about it and their manipulation of it.
    Some of the issues you raise aren't so much "messages" the filmmakers are "advocating" but differing opinions from characters within the story.
    Character interpretations may not be entirely accurate and can't be assumed to be fact.
    Nah, Luke hated the Jedi because he failed.
    Luke's conclusions pre-Craite were wrong - and that's ok.
    The guy suffered a nervous breakdown, questioned his fundamental assumptions but found balance in the end with a little help.

    Luke was always a flawed character.
    He was never the sharpest tool in the shed and leaned heavily on his mentors (when it suited him).
    In TLJ he cut himself off from his support network for 8 years so he could stew in his narrative of failure and justify his inaction in peace.

    I like this.
    I've even played the pitiful cynic-in-self-exile card myself.
    Flaws in protagonists like Luke are why I find his character interesting.
    Rey's greatest failure was her preoccupation and attachment to her parents.
    This obsession was explored in TFA and in TLJ she says “I need someone to show me where I belong in all this.”
    Kylo straight out tells her this desire for belonging is her greatest weakness and later tries to exploit it for his own ends.
    TLJ isn't preaching blind obedience to superiors or sending messages to do what you think is right at all costs.
    These story choices are made because it's a character driven film.
    They need weaknesses and for those weaknesses to be exposed by other characters.
    I don't understand why people (not meaning you here) are so quick to read sex, gender or color into the strengths and weaknesses of fictional characters.

    Personally I find a cocky hot-shot with weaknesses (TLJ) much more interesting than a flawless cocky hot-shot (TFA).
    Viewers mightn't find Kylo powerful or scary but the fact is he was enough of a threat to kill Han, draw out Luke to his death, and send the resistance scampering.
    Sure he's a cheeky little troll but I feel that's overstating the priorities of his screenwriting a little! ;)
    I think TLJ shows the writers were much more concerned with good storytelling and creating drama than humoring or antagonizing fans.
     
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  13. Pomojema

    Pomojema Ayatollah Of Rock-&-Rolla
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    "A cur's weakness, properly manipulated, can be a sharp... Tool."
     
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  14. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel Official

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    I understand what you mean, and respect your opinion. However, and as you say, there were consequences, serious ones, both in TLJ and TFA that stem from the characters failures. Poe, Finn and Rose may be responsible for the death of hundreds of people because they decided to disobey orders and go on a side quest to try and save everyone. All good intentions, of course. But, as the say goes: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". Luke feels responsible for everything bad that is happening in the galaxy right now, and he probably died not knowing half the things Kylo did, and the thousands that may have died directly or indirectly at his command.

    I lead people in the past, and I can tell you that it can feel as devastating to fail and get personal consequences as to fail and see the consequences affecting others because of your mistakes and shortcomings. In some ways, it even feels worse when others suffer from our mistakes. Why? Because you have to live with yourself and the shame of what you did.

    So, I think the theme of failure is well portraid in TLJ, and I don't share the opinion that the one who is at the cause of the failure has to suffer personally to validate the lesson. It may be both personally and the others who depend on you. It may be as painful if not more if bad stuff happens to them than to you (think your friends or children).
     
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  15. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Sorry but I neglected to mention the points from the op I liked! :rolleyes:

    Here's one for some balance...
    I like all these ideas.
    I'm guessing they chose to go down the route they did because it creates friction between two adversaries who know each other/are related ratchets up the drama - classic SW.
    This I'm not so sure.
    The jump from showing one fictional hero as a disappointment to indicating "every hero in reality" is a pretty big one.

    Besides, super-powered heroes are over-rated.
    They belong in fiction and are not very good or realistic examples of anything.
    Real heroes tend to be deviants or ordinary people who make tough decisions in the face of adversity.

    Luke was a hero for buying time for the Resistance to escape.
    He was a legend due to his special abilities.
     
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  16. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel Official

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    Great post, really liked how you portrayed the events of the whole saga in such a distilled and elegant way.

    This really made me think, and I would like to expand on what you say in your point above. What about Kylo? Was also the force that was responsible for him appearing? Does the force only chooses light side "chosen ones"? Is the force biased towards the light side? Or, are there other actors, powerful ones, that can stear and wield the force to bend it to their will? Case in point, Snoke and Luke? And, do they do it with "free will", or are they just acting as puppets of the force? As if there could be someone, or something behind the force playing a competition, a balance game because there is an inherent inbalance in the cosmos?

    Could the saga be telling us that you should not try to bend or shape what things are but just accept what it is and go with the flow? So, could hubris (excessive pride or self-confidence) be the capital mistake in this regard, and the main theme of SW, or at least one of them?

    PT: Jedi hubris? Jedi downfall.
    OT: Palpatine's hubris? Palpatine's downfall.
    ST: Snoke's hubris? Snoke's downfall.

    In the sense of "you should not try to bend or shape what things are but just accept what it is and go with the flow", you can definitely see it when Poe disobeys Leia and Holdo, and with that may have ended up causing more harm than good.

    So, what is it that the force is trying to say to us? What is Star Wars (George, JJ, RJ, etc) trying to say? That we should accept how things are and trust in "the force" (the cosmos) to keep things in balance? Does that mean that empires, evil organizations, federations, rebellions are all two faces of the same coin, and that we should just try to "live free" and "don't join"?

    Perhaps George and co are not trying to give us answers, I doubt they have them. But, at least they are making us think in how we should be living our lives, so that we may be more in tune with "the force", so that we may have more peaceful, purposeful, and fulfilling lives?

    But, isn't evil always going to rise? Shouldn't we be fighting that evil? Should we just choose to don't join and live free? And, how can one decide not to join if evil doesn't allow you to live?
     
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  17. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

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    So you're saying that all you meant by the following post, is that you agree with Mark in that the character direction was not up to him?

    I find that hard to believe.
     
  18. Darth Garth

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    You can't compare the deaths of superhero's ( which happens in the comic books by the way) to what happened to Luke Skywalker in TLJ. It wasn't Luke's death that bothered me at all really, it was the handling of his character. It's too dark for a Star Wars movie IMO. These aren't art house pieces.
     
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  19. Legend Knight

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    No I agree with the first thirty seconds of this video.
     
  20. Benjamin Lewis

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    anakin__s_hatred_by_trueinnovator159-d3cfpm7.png images.jpg LukeForceLightening.jpg maxresdefault.jpg Luke-Skywalker-Darth-Vader-Helmet.jpg poe_interrogation.jpg youngling.jpg images (1).jpg Kylo-Ren-kills-Han-Solo-828972.jpg
     
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