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The Confusing Philosophy of The Last Jedi

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Suborn, Mar 1, 2018.

  1. BobaFettNY21

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    Superheroes rarely actually die. They just take breaks so they can be reimagined. Wolverine, Jean Grey, Superman, Batman, Captain America, all 'die' in various ways multiple times.

    I thought we like to think Star Wars is different from comics? Isn't that a thing cited by a lot of fans? That SW is different from all that stuff?
     
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  2. BobRoss

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    He said many things about TLJ which contradict each other at times. But sure, focus on the good things and ignore the bad ones if that makes you feel happy. The ratings of OP's post indicate that many people have their fair share of issues with TLJ which disqualifies it from being even close to ESB.
     
    #42 BobRoss, Mar 2, 2018
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  3. DuckDuckSith

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    That is true but I'd add that we don't see the cast ever really reflect on the consequences of their actions. It would have been really interesting to see Poe, Finn or even Leia contemplate their mistakes and feel shame but we don't get that. The last scene of the movie felt off because I didn't feel the hopefulness of the characters when they leave on the millennium falcon.
    I understand that they are happy that they managed to survive but practically everybody in the rebellion has died and as far as we know, nobody in the universe wants to stand up to the first order. I would have liked to that realisation hit them, but that never happens and instead we get the message "We failed, but we'll have better luck next time."
     
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  4. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

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    The problem is that these "bad ones" are results of editing, twisting of his words, and misquoting Mark. He has acknowledged this, and has told people to stop, because it does not represent his actual opinion.

    1. He said he was initially very surprised at RJ's direction with Luke
    2. He said it was not the direction he would have taken if he had been in charge
    3. He acknowledged that the character does not belong solely to him, and accepted that the decisions were not his to make.

    And then people went nuts with "See! We knew RJ was wrong, and now Mark agrees with us!" Which does not apply if you consider what he has ACTUALLY said.

    A) He said the decisions that Rian made were not the same decisions that he would have made himself.
    B) Mark never said RJ was wrong, or that the direction of Luke's character was bad.

    If someone can take A, and see it resulting in the opposite of B, then they are either manipulative, or a moron.

    Mark became a scapegoat for naysayers. And despite pleas from Mark himself for people to stop, because they are misrepresenting him, people continue with this bull****. Like right now. In this thread.

    So you're presenting one portion of one piece of the puzzle, ignoring all the rest, and saying you have the whole picture. A bias picture that supports your previously-held opinion.
     
    #44 Benjamin Lewis, Mar 2, 2018
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  5. Contreras1991

    Contreras1991 Rebelscum

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    Add to that he likes tweets that mention that he is being misquoted
     
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  6. BobRoss

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    I never claimed that Hamill said RJ was a bad director, I'm merely stating that there is a clear discrepancy between his earlier statements and what you would expect him to think of TLJ according to these statements. If he doesn't think of Luke as "his Luke" anymore one would assume it impacts how he sees TLJ. Maybe Hamill wasn't on the same page with many directors over the years. And maybe he has signed a legally binding contract that includes how to handle negative statements made during PR events also known as damage control. TL;DR You wouldn't expect an actor to compare TLJ to ESB but also voice his concerns as strongly as Hamill did. This inconsistent behavior naturally opens up room for speculation.
     
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  7. Contreras1991

    Contreras1991 Rebelscum

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    The thing Bob Ross, is that he always said that he initianly disagree with rian's vision but once he saw the script, the context, and how the story took place, he liked the character a little bit more ( but still is not the route that he would take with the character) and he said that he would put his part in realizing Rian's vision. But after seeing the tremendous tangle that several web pages have been doing with his words (which took him out of context, not to mention the YouTube videos that have edited his interviews) he had to apologize, since thanks to this he gave something to those who hate the movie to use his phrases in their favor
     
    #47 Contreras1991, Mar 2, 2018
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  8. Legend Knight

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    I never claimed to know the whole picture. I said I agree with Mark's direct quote at the start of this video. I have no idea why that is hard to understand or is controversial to you.
     
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  9. Benjamin Lewis

    Benjamin Lewis Rebel Official

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    Because you've taken the quote completely out of context, to mean something completely different from what he meant it to. I addressed this in the first post I quoted you in.
     
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  10. Legend Knight

    Legend Knight Force Sensitive

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    I never claimed to know the inner workings of Mark Hamill's inner minds eye. I have said more times than I should have to that I agree with one direct quote that Mark Hamill spoke with his mouth lol. If he loved the movie great! I would hope so he poured a lot of his soul into it. I have no idea why I do not have the right to say I agree with something someone said in an interview.
     
    #50 Legend Knight, Mar 2, 2018
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  11. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel Official

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    Agreed, but they had hardly the time to reflect on things, since everything happened so fast.

    By the way, the "slap" and lecture of Leia and Poe's demotion is there. This is an important consequence to Poe. The explaining of the plan to Poe, and his realization (although not very explicit) that what he did was the bad call, and that "the plan" was the good call, is there to some extent. At least I felt that. Luke feeling totally ashamed before his master, sister and then before Kylo to some extent (although it was not all his fault). Finn and Rose feeling devastated when they found out DJ had sold the Rebellion, and that they were to be blamed. There was hardly any time for more consequences, that could be long lasting.

    I understand that you think a more personal and permament and/or physical consequence was in order , if not death itself). However, I feel that demotion, shame and the feeling that hundreds if not thousands have died because of you can be more than enough as a consequence of failure. In other words, the consequences don't need to be physical, in my opinion.
     
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  12. Darth Garth

    Darth Garth Rebel General

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    You're right, but I'm referring to the post I quoted and specifically Infinity War; I know characters will die. My disappointment with TLJ is not that a character died, it's how Luke Skywalker's character was portrayed in the film. You can love TLJ all you want but lets be honest, its not a film I'd choose to watch multiple times. it's just too bleak. It's not fun. It's depressing. That is how I honestly feel about it. RJ decided to turn Star Wars into the most depressing film I've seen in years IMO, and it's my opinion, it's how I feel. I don't hate the movie, but I don't love it. It is Luke Skywalker, there are great things about the film that I like but what they did with Luke is honestly a deal breaker for me. I'm not giving up on Star Wars though.
     
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  13. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebel Commander

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    Pure speculation based on the potential source material, current contracts, and the overall direction of the universe. The writing has been on the wall for some time now and at least one of the outcomes will not only be death but probably brutal death.

    Regardless, I was assuming he was talking about the death of a character but he was talking about the overall arc of a character in the movie.

    I could give numerous examples of this because some characters have been portrayed like that in MCU and many have been portrayed like that in the overall Marvel Universe. I'll just leave it because you don't really care about the facts regarding those, you're just upset about how Luke was portrayed in this movie. I can't fault you for feeling like that but I definitely don't agree with your feelings about it.

    When you say "let's be honest" it should say "let me be honest". Because let me be honest, it's a film I have chosen to watch multiple times, it's not too bleak, it is fun, and it's not depressing. I thoroughly enjoy the film despite some flaws and that's how I feel about it, it's my opinion.
     
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  14. Sparafucile

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    Okay, there's a few things to get straight.

    MH realizes he doesn't own SW or the characters within. He didn't pay over 4 billion for the rights, and he's not on the writing team, he's just an actor with a role to play. So within that context, the following 3 comments are correct.

    "1. He said he was initially very surprised at RJ's direction with Luke
    2. He said it was not the direction he would have taken if he had been in charge
    3. He acknowledged that the character does not belong solely to him, and accepted that the decisions were not his to make."

    He also said a lot of other stuff about Luke (Jake) Skywalker. Eventually he came around to backtrack on some of his comments, stating he was misquoted and taken out of context. True or not, or whether he got himself in trouble with Disney and he could be breaking his contract, it leaves open a lot to the imagination.

    Personally I don't care one way or another, this is the first time I believe I've ever commented on MH's take on Luke or TLJ. I just think there is enough to lend credence to both opinions and due to the fact that MH has a contract with Disney, and the possibility (probability) that he has to tow a certain line, it's not insane to think that maybe MH isn't such a fan (or wasn't such a fan, as it is possible his opinion, like that of many fans, has changed over time) before, during or after the making of the movie. Beyond that MH may even have a monetary stake in the issue if his pay is somehow linked to the success of the film (a percentage of earnings as pay, as well as royalties on merchandise is possible) which could further confuse the issue.

    The truth is, we may never know what his true opinion is, and it could be that at some point in time everyone was right and wrong at different points in the process. Maybe all Disney had to do is tell MH that the worse the movie does, the less Luke figures will get sold and that means less money for you. I don't personally know MH, but I do know money and profit means quite a bit to most humans.

    Then again, maybe he flat out loved the movie after he got over the initial shock. In the end, it really doesn't matter. I didn't like TLJ regardless of what MH thought or thinks of it. That said, I find his comments on the movie made for some excellent TV.
     
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  15. Plagueis 1138

    Plagueis 1138 Rebelscum

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    The thing is that I get that Luke believes the Jedi are stupid because they got overthrown by Sidious but the movie doesn’t try to explore what ie means to be a True Jedi. So when Luke says rey is the Last Jedi, it fell flat because the entire time he has been saying that the Jedi suck. There was no character development or bonding between Rey and Luke, despite the great on screen chemistry. It doesn’t add up to anything other than this:

    Rey: Train me
    Luke: No, Jedi stink
    Rey: Please
    Luke: No, well ok. Lesson 1, Jedi are bad. No I won’t train you.
    Rey: Fine I’m going
     
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  16. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    I think his acknowledgment of Rey as the last Jedi is more than simply that, though. I think it's also somewhat of an endorsement of what the Jedi represent, contrary to what he's said at the end of the film. He's had a change of heart since he last saw Rey.

    Also, it's not like Kylo necessarily knows how Luke feels about the Jedi.
     
  17. Plagueis 1138

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    I understand what the intent was but I feel that getting there was sloppy. If Rey and Luke had some training, real Jedi training that was different than Yoda but still Jedi training, I think the Rey parentage would not have been an issue. If we saw Rey really hone her skills. That’s just how I see it of course.
     
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  18. cawatrooper

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    Yeah, I understand that.

    I think TLJ had an interesting challenge ahead of them. We see Luke train with Yoda in the OT.
    The PT cleverly sidesteps this need to repeat the training by skipping between a young Anakin and one who is nearly old enough to be a Jedi Knight. They also peppered in other various stages of training, such as the younglings scene in AotC, to show other aspects of a Jedi's life that we hadn't seen out main characters experience.

    With TLJ, we likely would've seen a more ESB-style training, given the rushed and irregular nature of the galaxy at the time. There simply wasn't time for Rey to go through the traditional training. But instead of copying ESB, RJ tried to do something more unique.

    And I'd agree that it had its flaws.

    I think the problem was, copying ESB would be redundant if not also boring, but it was also really the only logical way to train Rey. Without that time skip, RJ really was in kind of a pickle here. Doubly so, since TFA was already so criticized for rehashing ANH. He had to do something different, but he still had to try and get Rey trained.

    I think he stumbled a bit, for sure.
     
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  19. Plagueis 1138

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    Yea you’re damned if you do or damned if you don’t. I think the film needed a time jump, which could have happened after Rey first meets Luke. The problem is that Rey senses Luke has died, which is fine but they never had a developed relationship for me to believe that she cares. He was a jerk to her the whole time and then she’s like fine I’m leaving.

    There are ways to show Luke training her without it being Degobah 2.0. It’s like every student requires different lessons, oh well.


    It’s like they want to deconstruct the chosen one idea, cool. The whole point of Anakin being the chosen one was that he was the opposite. But the problem now is that having Snoke saying the “the light to meet it” just implies that Rey is now the new chosen one.

    I would have been fine with Rey being a Skywalker if she rejected her name and if they deconstructed the chosen with Luke studying the history of the Jedi and realizing that there is no chosen one and that it was a false prophecy that the Jedi created. He could also be teaching Rey there are many force users like her out there and that ‘skywalker’ is just a name. Doing that would get rid of the idea of this “royal bloodline,” (which I never saw it as) while at the same time please both sides.


    Looking back, while I think Snoke dying is a cool moment it doesn’t really make sense in the larger scheme because for all the talk about “burning it all to the ground,” Kylo Ren is now the head of the Empire, I mean First Order and they even call it the “rebellion” again. If Rey had joined Kylo Ren joined, that would’ve made Snoke’s death more impactful.
     
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  20. cawatrooper

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    Yeah, if anything I think it may have been interesting to see Rey join Kylo.

    Hey, they probably could've even worked out a peaceful resolution to the Crait crisis. I wonder if Rey did more damage than good by leaving Kylo alone in charge of the First Order.
     
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