The Confusing Philosophy of The Last Jedi

Ah, I can see how what I wrote was misleading.

No, I don't mean that she'd be better off by killing Kylo. There's no way that would lead to much change, outside of the loss of Ren. The First Order would still be comfortably in control, and Crait would've gone pretty much as badly- perhaps even worse, as Kylo wouldn't be humiliated there and the legend of Skywalker wouldn't have spread.

What I meant was that if she took him up on his offer to rule the First Order together (and I do believe he was sincere there) I think she could've influenced events quite a bit. Would've been a really interesting and different story than we've seen, too.

Though, it's just a "woulda, shoulda, coulda." I don't hate what Rian did either, and I'm excited to see where the series goes now.

 

I may have been a bit tipsy at that point in the movie (... both times I saw it...) but did Kylo refuse to break off the attack even if she joined?

And yeah, Kylo already has a significant uphill battle to maintain his power as a new Supreme Leader who arguably just committed regicide. Adding in Rey, who would totally illegitimate in the First Order's eyes, would further complicate things. If this is what happened, I'd imagine Rey would have to operate in the shadows (not unlike a certain guy named Rax), at least until things calmed down and Kylo had asserted his authority in the Order.

 

Ah, okay.

Ben needs to up his game, apparently.

 

How can you make ep. IX compelling without a compelling big villain?
That’s the question for me.

And that is why in theory I may have liked a lot the death of Snoke, if that was
meant - as RJ said - to build up Kylo as the big villain of ep. IX.
Also because this is something we haven’t seen until now.
The dynamic Master/Pupil is not more.

But the big villain of ep. IX to make that movie work, has to stay as the big villain until the
very end of it.
And only then being redeemed or not (and left dead or alive).

But if so... then it makes not sense or a very little narrative sense to show a character so
conflicted until the very end of.... ep. viii.
So irrational. So... emo.

And even more little sense - imo - had to try to make Rey and the audience
(Regardless if you succeded or not) to emphatize with Kylo as much as TLJ did.
Meaning you should have underlined his responsibilities, his choices, his dark path...
not those of his parents, his uncle and of Snoke.

You cannot have it all... you cannot have a compelling story on your own movie and to set up
properly the next one with such different goals: to make Kylo the one “they will
be forced to deal with coming into IX” and the conflicted victim of other people bac choices
and evil plans.

If you don’t want him as the big threat of IX, then let Snoke survive.

In all honesty I don’t see the point.

 

Me too... if that’s the case. I’m just not sure it is.
I don’t know if I have to believe “my take”and some RJ’s quotes
or other quotes and takes.

 

Sorry I realized I missed to say something...

But first... side note: Kylo told Hux that Rey killed Snoke.
We don’t know what he would have done had Rey accepted his
offer, but sure he used her to deny/cover his actions.

That said... what I was trying to saying is that I don’t
understand if TLJ wanted us to emphatize with Kylo
because they are building up the alliances Rey/Kylo coming into IX
or if that alliance is a red herring.

Because if Kylo is gonna be the big threat of IX, (he) then I don’t see that alliance coming.
He may be redeemed in the end... in the very end.
But there cannot be any alliance otherwise there won’t be a real threat in the movie.
Not even an alliance against someone else, because that someone else would be
the big threat/villain, not Kylo.

If so, they are teasing that alliance as a red herring.
It is misleading, so it was all the focus on other people faults when it comes to Kylo.

Not because a villain or a big villain has to be pure evil.
But because to make the audience perceive him as the new big villain
at least the movie finale of TLJ needed something more/different/clear.
Not ambiguity.

Or, that alliance is coming and they wanted us to emphasize with the character because
of that. But then who’s gonna be the big villain in IX ?

Because you need one. How can you make a good ep. IX with not big villain?

Sure you may resurrect Snoke.
But that would be lame, it would make TLJ a total waste of time
Not to mention that it would be perceived as a retcon of ep. viii.
Or you may introduce another threat... but again TLJ would be a waste of time.
You killed Snoke for what?

Putting it all together I don’t understand if the problem is they don’t have a plan
therefore RJ had to left all the options on the table, or there is a plan but
RJ wanted to be ambiguous because that is what he liked best.
Or they have a plan... but without ambiguity there are not discussions, speculations,
hype.

In the latter case I just hope no one would blame the fans again when IX will come out.

And whatever the case is... to me, this kind of choices undermined the trilogy.
To me they make the story less compelling not more interesting.

 

If I were writing IX, this is what I'd do:

Start off showing Ren on the throne - but hinting that it isn't all it is cracked up to be. The return of light to the galaxy has put the Resistance on even terms with the FO and the good side is beginning to turn the tide in the war. The FO is beginning to doubt Ren and Hux more than ever wants the Supreme Leader dead. Hux conspires behind the scenes with the KoR and the Resistance (unknowingly for them) and creates an ambush for Ren who is subsequently badly injured. But Rey rescues Ren and keeps him alive through the Force. She takes him to the Resistance where he is to be judged. However, the FO under Hux (who is now protected by the KoR) become more merciless than ever. For when Ren was leader he just wanted order and control. Hux wants revenge and is just one nasty s**. His tactics lay waste to the galaxy but also have an adverse effect on the stormtroopers who begin to rebel (with the help of Finn). Hux begins to lose badly and in his madness unleashes a galaxy destroying weapon/creates a natural disaster that can only be stopped through the Force ("the ability to destroy a planet..."). But it requires both Rey and Ren to work together. And no one trusts Ren.

As all this is going on, in his captivity, Ren is visited by the "ghosts of Skywalker's past"! Anakin, Luke and Leia speak with him. And he begins to see the error of his ways. The Resistance tells Rey that they cannot trust Ren and she goes off alone to stop the galaxy from dying. She encounters the KoR. Back at the Resistance base, Ren has come to his senses and has felt that Rey is in danger. He pleads with Finn/Poe and urges them to trust him. This is the turning point and what the whole story is about. Essentially, this is "the forgiveness of Darth Vader". Only Luke forgave his father. The galaxy did not. And his dark legacy lived on. But if the Resistance, and by extension galaxy, can forgive Ren and enable him to do the right thing, the circle of darkness will be broken. They free him.

Ren arrives just in time to save Rey and they battle the KoR in an epic battle. They both then unite to stop Hux's galaxy destroying event. Meanwhile, Finn has convinced the stormtroopers to mutiny and Hux finds himself alone and defeated. Rey and Ren manage to stop the event but the effort was fatal for them both. They join the netherworld of the Force together. The film ends with Finn picking up Rey's lightsaber and heeding her words from the netherworld to him: "The Force is in us all...".

 

@master_shaitan
It’s not that is impossible to do something like the one you’re suggesting
It’s that is uncompelling, IMO.
For many reasons, but above all even tho I see the conflict Hux vs Kylo
coming, I cannot see as Hux the main threat at this point of the story.
Especially after TLJ treated him as a comic relief.

 

It's because he was treated as comic relief that it'll be effective. And as we see with a lot of main villains, they're cowardly losers. Just look at all the Bond villains. It's the henchmen that provide the threat. Hux's backstory of being the joke, the rabid cur, will make him unpredictable and dangerous. And if he is surrounded by some bada$$ KoR, then that'll provide an exciting threat, imo. I find that more compelling that just regurgitating the OT story.

 

You’re free to feel like that.
I just don’t. I don’t see why to waste 2 movies like that.

But I don’t understand why to use Kylo as the big villain would be
regurgitating the OT.
He has not master but him.

But beside that, you can do many things.

My favorite taking into account that conflict whitin the FO coming...
would be Kylo starting ep IX as the overconfident Supreme Leader of the
space neo-nazi First Order Kylo, gradually becoming paranoid.

Hunted by his uncle Force ghost, not trusting anyone.
Fearing and seeing betrayal everywhere.
Tapped inside a bunker just like Hitler in the last days of WWII.
Willing to end it all ( I mean it all... all the galaxy) with himself instead
of accepting/facing defeat.

That would be unseen and terrific...

 

You're yet to see movie 3. Might be worth reserving judgement until then.

I mean had Snoke survived and there was the master/apprentice bad guys. But yes, even just having Kylo Ren as the big bad and then have him see the light at the end would fall a little flat for me. I'd like to see a different kind of main threat other than a powerful force user looking to take over. A despotic, maniac like Hux looking to just destroy everything appeals more for me.

There is that option. We could literally see Kylo get a bad dose of karma and for the moral message to be enveloped within that. But I'd find that mighty depressing and sad. It would mean that Rey didn't get as far as Luke in regards to being a redeemer. It would mean that Han died for nothing. It would mean an end to Leia's sad legacy. It would show that love didn't conquer hate.

This is Star Wars. It's a fairy tale. The end game needs to present us with a moral message that is as transformative as it is exciting. Kylo remaining the big bad and then just killing himself or something wouldn't add much at all to the saga - imo.

 

I'll star from the last one...

I agree. In fact I didn't say that in that scenario I've figured that is how the movie has to finish.
I've only imagine what the last act may be about. Then it could as you say, or Kylo can make his
final, selfless and different choice but... at the very end.

About this

It's just that if has to be Hux (or someone else)... then to me, sorry, there's not enough set up.

 

In what respect? Hux has had a lot of screen time. We've seen his ambitions. We have got to know his personality. We have seen how he despises Ren. We can see how him being the butt of jokes and made him more vicious and twisted. In the OT we got introduced to monkey faced Emperor in TESB and then had him be the big bad in ROTJ with no real set up.

Again, I get that people are concerned about Hux being the big bad because he was made a mockery of. But like I say, most of the villains in chief across franchises and in real life are snivelling, cowards losers. Their henchmen provide the physical threat.

 

It's not about making sense, it's about it "not going the way you think" at all costs. I think LF and RJ sacrificed a ton of great character and story opportunities just for the sake of subverting expectations, not a way to make a movie IMO.

 

That's not what they did. They looked to create the most amount of drama for each character. Now you can question those choices and say what you would've done differently and why. But it's downright ignorant or disingenuous, given what we know RJ has said, to say that they just made choices to surprise people. These are seasoned filmmakers. Just because it wasn't the Luke you expected (though most did), doesn't suddenly mean they are amateur filmmakers.

 

You kind of have to think about your audience somewhat though right? Just a bit? Some of the things that happened in the film had me scratching my head and it was just odd, odd choices, subversion? Hard to say but that's how it felt IMO. He's not the Luke many fans expected, you're right. I do find it hard to believe that he was a Luke any Star Wars fan on Earth ever really wanted, nobody wants that kind of Luke lol. You'd have to be a sadist. It is what it is though. I didn't like the choice, but that's me.