1. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

The Confusing Philosophy of The Last Jedi

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Suborn, Mar 1, 2018.

  1. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebel Commander

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2015
    Posts:
    276
    Likes Received:
    412
    Trophy Points:
    2,357
    Credits:
    881
    Ratings:
    +696 / 22 / -11
    Hello, I'm a Star Wars fan on Earth and I wanted that kind of Luke. I didn't want that kind of Luke going into the movie but I watched the movie and came out thinking that was the perfect way to handle the character. Now you don't have to find it hard to believe.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  2. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2015
    Posts:
    7,119
    Likes Received:
    10,292
    Trophy Points:
    144,192
    Credits:
    15,603
    Ratings:
    +19,239 / 799 / -292
    I said "most expected that Luke". We all knew he was in exile. We all knew he was avoiding the conflict. I'm surprised anyone thought that we'd meet Luke and he'd be all jolly and raring to get into battle. I'm also surprised when I hear how people wanted him to be a wise old Jedi master, ready to pass down his wisdom as Kenobi and Yoda did to him. Boring.

    This Luke had an arch that was complex and yielded an interesting story. I personally didn't love everything, but that's impossible. Were there choices I think RJ made that didn't quite work? Sure! I think the saber hitting Rey on the head was the wrong choice. But it's all subjective. And if each choice can be justified, then there isn't an argument to be had. And I'd wager that most fans loved the film considering the money it made. If it was a disaster as some like to make out, it wouldn't have made over a billion, even though it's Star Wars.

    I absolutely wanted that Luke. I wanted a beaten down, weakened Luke. If we didn't get that then we'd have a repeat of the OT and no need for Rey at all. And besides, I prefer my heroes to be flawed. Human. Not perfect idols that don't change over a lifetime.

    Sure, you think about the audience. You don't actively go out to upset them. But the most important thing is story. And you have to try and write the best story you can. If there are surprises that are in-keeping with the story you want to tell, great! But RJ didn't set out to shock. He set out to make a great story. And great stories require the characters to go through a bit of drama. RJ sought to create the most amount of drama, through conflict, for every character. Again, everyone probably has a different idea about what he could've done with each character. But ultimately, LucasFilm invested in RJ and his storytelling abilities. And I'd say he did a damn good job at creating a dramatic story using the pieces he had in play. I also have to say that when I compare RJ's story to the fanfic I read on this forum, I go with RJ every time. The alternative is a re-run of the OT, with God-like Luke being Rey's lovely old daddy. Yawn.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Wise Wise x 1
  3. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Posts:
    735
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    Trophy Points:
    4,842
    Credits:
    1,616
    Ratings:
    +1,926 / 126 / -51
    I would have liked Dagobah 2.0. It would have made sense from a storytelling standpoint. Luke clearly has great affection for Master Yoda so it would make sense he would do his best to imitate the way Yoda taught him.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Posts:
    4,068
    Likes Received:
    17,312
    Trophy Points:
    145,167
    Credits:
    16,839
    Ratings:
    +21,416 / 62 / -37
    Very much agreed.

    People seem so surprised that Luke was so anti-action in this film.

    We found out that he ran away in the credits of the movie before this.
    We found out in the movie before this that his Jedi temple failed.
    It was implied in the movie before this that he probably felt guilty for Kylo Ren.

    Honestly, as subversive as this film was, Luke's portrayal was pretty easy to predict, for the most part. I expected him to be reluctant to help Rey. I expected him to not want to leave Ach-To. I expected that he'd probably be a sad, beaten man. And, given by the trailers (again, released before the movie) I expected that Luke would want the "Jedi to end".

    People may have wanted something different. But honestly, I can't help but think this is less of the movie's fault, and more of their completely different (and frankly, poorly formed) expectations.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  5. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Posts:
    735
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    Trophy Points:
    4,842
    Credits:
    1,616
    Ratings:
    +1,926 / 126 / -51
    Give me a break. Luke Skywalker is a household name and one of the greatest heroes in cinematic history. In the OT, he is willing to sacrifice everything for his friends and, ultimately, his father. He loves Han and Leia. He would gladly lay down his life for either of them (as they would for him).

    Character development is one thing but taking a hero and completely reimagining him is something entirely different, and that's what they did here.

    It never ceases to amaze me what the E8 apologists comes up with. If I went back in time to November and made a post in here that said "here is what I hope happens to Luke..... (insert E8 description here)..." then I would be laughed out of the forum - and deservedly so.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  6. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Posts:
    4,068
    Likes Received:
    17,312
    Trophy Points:
    145,167
    Credits:
    16,839
    Ratings:
    +21,416 / 62 / -37
    Yep, that is where his character was at 40 years ago.

    Don't blame me for those who apparently weren't paying attention 2.5 years ago.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2015
    Posts:
    7,119
    Likes Received:
    10,292
    Trophy Points:
    144,192
    Credits:
    15,603
    Ratings:
    +19,239 / 799 / -292
    Fine, disagree with the direction they took it. A lot of people like it. A lot don't it seems. But you can't place this on RJ's shoulders. JJ and Kasdan wrote Luke to be in exile on the Island. He was there whilst his friends suffered in TFA and did nothing. RJ had to find an explanation for this and he did so by making Luke see himself as a failure and being disconnected from the Force as a result. Essentially, we saw that coming from TFA. There was little other option and is why I made threads about Luke having lost his power or perhaps having done something bad that he regretted. From my experience, the majority of people on these forums shared similar views and expected Luke to be in hiding and not be this God-like, perfect Jedi.

    And then the other issue RJ had to deal with, the one that JJ and Kasdan shirked, was how do you have Luke Skywalker on screen and back in the fold and not have him dominate the movie and then make Rey superfluous. The former is impossible. Hence why RJ made Luke integral but gave him an interesting story that allowed him to become a part of Rey and Ren's story (and added to his own rather than recycling it). It was in the end as much Luke's film as anyone else's. Perhaps another good reason to kill him off so he didn't dominate IX. And the latter point is the most important of all. This is Rey's journey. Luke's had his. But if Luke was the exact same hero that we left in ROTJ, why would a new hero be needed? She wouldn't be. Hence why Luke had to reject Rey and then, after deciding to help, be killed off.

    As far as I can see, RJ told the only story available - hence why a lot of people on here who weren't so invested in OT rehashes, Skywalker family revelations & SuperLuke predicted pretty much what would happen.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  8. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Posts:
    735
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    Trophy Points:
    4,842
    Credits:
    1,616
    Ratings:
    +1,926 / 126 / -51
    I have to vehemently disagree that RJ told "the only story available." I could come up with dozens of outlines for E8 which were all compatible with E7 that were wildly different from what we got.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Hopeful Hopeful x 1
  9. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2015
    Posts:
    7,119
    Likes Received:
    10,292
    Trophy Points:
    144,192
    Credits:
    15,603
    Ratings:
    +19,239 / 799 / -292
    Let me hear one that doesn't render Rey pointless and turn Luke into a monster for being in exile.
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 3
  10. The Nerf Herder!

    The Nerf Herder! Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2015
    Posts:
    108
    Likes Received:
    240
    Trophy Points:
    1,522
    Credits:
    897
    Ratings:
    +351 / 7 / -1
    As cool as it would be to have seen that (which I had assumed we would get), I don't believe it would have been the most logical thing to do for the story. Luke is not Obi-Wan nor Yoda. They were raised in the Jedi order. Naturally, they would not have an issue with training a new generation of Jedi. Luke however, grew up outside the order. After having the same event happen to him which happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda, it would only be logical for him to not want the same.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  11. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Posts:
    735
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    Trophy Points:
    4,842
    Credits:
    1,616
    Ratings:
    +1,926 / 126 / -51
    Anyone who cannot come up with something compatible with the above suffers from a tremendous lack of imagination.

    It could be something simple like Luke was looking for something important at the Jedi temple to serve the greater good (and that "something important" doesn't necessarily have to be a physical object). He hated leaving his friends and family behind, but this was something larger and more significant. You could also have made Leia in on it, meaning that while she didn't know the specifics of what Luke was doing or where he was, she nevertheless had a general understanding that his trip to the original Jedi Temple served the greater galactic good. Rey shows up, he tells her what's going on (which is also a device to tell the audience what is going on) and he provides her with training and guidance. She continues her interactions with Kylo Ren.

    Boom. Luke isn't a monster and Rey isn't pointless. That took me longer to type than the 5 seconds it took to come up with it in my head. I am sure a professional writer can do a far, far better job so please spare me the silliness that RJ "told the only story available."
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Clouded Clouded x 1
  12. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2015
    Posts:
    7,119
    Likes Received:
    10,292
    Trophy Points:
    144,192
    Credits:
    15,603
    Ratings:
    +19,239 / 799 / -292
    So Luke doesn't go to save Han and Leia (and also dismisses the Starkiller attack on the Hosnian system)? He just ignores them? Firstly, most would hate that and it would "ruin" his character. Secondly, isn't this actually a complete turnaround of his character? Thirdly, YOU just literally said:

    "In the OT, he is willing to sacrifice everything for his friends and, ultimately, his father. He loves Han and Leia. He would gladly lay down his life for either of them".

    !!!!!

    And then you'd still have Luke be this hero who is on an important mission but returns to the fight. So then you'd have no need for Rey.

    You literally failed on the two points I outlined. Try again.
     
    #92 master_shaitan, Mar 7, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
  13. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Posts:
    735
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    Trophy Points:
    4,842
    Credits:
    1,616
    Ratings:
    +1,926 / 126 / -51
    Why do you say that? Rey still has her connection with Kylo Ren, which would be a plotline they would explore.
    I gave you exactly what you asked for, and it took me about 5 seconds to do so. The fact that you don't my rudimentary outline doesn't change that one bit.

    I am not saying that my outline would lead to Oscars for Best Original Screenplay. I just took 5 seconds to show a different direction that they could have gone and how silly it was for you to say that RJ told the only possible story. Luke is not a monster and Rey is not useless. I am not going to spend the rest of my day defending it against every ridiculous criticism you can come up with.

    Criteria fulfilled, period.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  14. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Posts:
    4,068
    Likes Received:
    17,312
    Trophy Points:
    145,167
    Credits:
    16,839
    Ratings:
    +21,416 / 62 / -37
    To be fair, I think @Wolfpack has somewhat of a point. And it's something I had actually considered pre-TLJ, that Luke may have gone looking for something.

    I do get your point, though- that even if he was looking for something (a point further implied by the "compass" implications) that doesn't change the fact that he's seriously neglecting the galaxy, which kinda negates any argument that focuses on Luke's neglecting the Republic and his friends.

    That, and while I admit this could have multiple interpretations, the look Luke gives Rey at the end of TFA seems to me to be incredibly weary. He does not look happy that the galaxy has come to him for help.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  15. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2015
    Posts:
    7,119
    Likes Received:
    10,292
    Trophy Points:
    144,192
    Credits:
    15,603
    Ratings:
    +19,239 / 799 / -292
    Ummm, no.

    Rey having a story with Ren is irrelevant. If Luke is still in hero mode, which he would be in your tale, then there would be no need for an inexperienced Rey. Luke would be able to fulfil the role of the hero. What's more, if Luke was sitting around on Ahch-To doing god-knows what for the past x amount of years whilst his friends suffered and died, people would seriously question his character and rightly so. You literally said yourself a few posts up how Luke would drop everything to save the ones he loves. Yet you come up with a story where he is in touch with the Force, still fighting for the light side and yet leaving his best mate to die by the hand of his nephew who he trained?

    This makes my point perfectly.

    RJ did exactly the right thing. He came up with a means to explain why Luke didn't know what had happened to Han, why he was in exile and out of the fight and then why Rey was needed to be the new hero.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Wise Wise x 1
  16. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2015
    Posts:
    7,119
    Likes Received:
    10,292
    Trophy Points:
    144,192
    Credits:
    15,603
    Ratings:
    +19,239 / 799 / -292
    @Wolfpack Trolling? Really?

    Doesn't do your "argument" much favours.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  17. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Posts:
    3,481
    Likes Received:
    3,897
    Trophy Points:
    12,517
    Credits:
    6,785
    Ratings:
    +7,940 / 410 / -137
    More I read Original Post,more I realise how Great it is.

    SWNN would make greatest favor to Fandom and most helpfull thing , to wrap it up and find way to send it to J.J.Abrams and Kathleen Kennedy or somehow pont to people who make Star Wars to read those thoughts,as a point od reference from a people who love their films and think about,and want to help.

    I am serrious.Very serrious.
     
    #97 McDiarmid, Mar 8, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Darth Garth

    Darth Garth Rebel General

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Posts:
    539
    Likes Received:
    843
    Trophy Points:
    4,517
    Credits:
    1,543
    Ratings:
    +1,291 / 79 / -28
    I do know that some fans did come around halfway through the film, you're right about that, but I think they went just too far with Luke and his personal crisis. Why not have him buck up half way through and become the Luke Skywalker we've grown to love? So many different ways they could have went to be true to the Luke we all know and love. I honestly think they could have handeled his character a little better. I did really like the movie coming out of it, but I was lying to myself. I just can't get over what happened to Luke, maybe in the future, who knows. Maybe IX will be fun this time around.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 8, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 8, 2018 ---
    TLJ is not a bad movie, Let me clear that up. In a film sense, it's probably one of the best I think. BUT, a big but for me; Star Wars isn't any other film, and while I admire what RJ was trying to do with Luke's character, I just think it was the wrong way to go with this particular character. It's dramatic, it's got meat, It's what film is made of, but not with Luke Skywalker. Why not have him be like Rocky Balboa? Luke finds his groove and comes back half way through instead of just staying depressed and suicidal? Some fans will say, well, "He did come to the rescue at the end!" Not to me he didn't. He wanted to die, and he did. I"m trying to find the good, but I just can't get over what they did to him, sorry.
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  19. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebel Commander

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2015
    Posts:
    276
    Likes Received:
    412
    Trophy Points:
    2,357
    Credits:
    881
    Ratings:
    +696 / 22 / -11
    People don't stay the same over the course of a lifetime. If you can't come to accept that now then you'll just have to learn that lesson in the future. You're expecting Luke to be the same hopeful guy he was 30 years ago and that's just not realistic. You keep saying, "the Luke we know and love" but you only knew him for maybe 4 weeks total out of his whole lifetime. Don't try to pretend like you really know the guy.
     
    • Wise Wise x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  20. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

    Joined:
    May 22, 2017
    Posts:
    771
    Likes Received:
    944
    Trophy Points:
    3,992
    Credits:
    1,379
    Ratings:
    +1,490 / 213 / -149
    Why was Han the same? How come Obi Wan appeared to be the same person? What about Yoda? When Lucas wrote him. Yoda was still the same creature. Until Rian Johnson came along. That's an excuse for the writer to create something out of his or her head without a foundation. Doesn't work.
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
Loading...

Share This Page