1. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

The Emperor's Role in the Sequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Logray Ewok Medicine Man, Nov 25, 2019.

  1. Logray Ewok Medicine Man

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2019
    Posts:
    99
    Likes Received:
    317
    Trophy Points:
    1,272
    Credits:
    739
    Ratings:
    +446 / 3 / -0
    A lot of press and interviews about Episode IX have been rolling out quickly in recent days, but two quotes really jumped out at me when read in context of one another.

    According to the Rolling Stone interview, J.J. Abrams first laughed when he read Rian Johnson’s script for Episode VIII and acknowledges Johnson’s choices were “very different from the choices I would have made.”

    Couple that statement with Colin Treverrow’s statements in Empire that “Bringing back the Emperor was an idea JJ brought to the table when he came on board…it’s honestly something I never considered.”

    If these statements are taken as accurate, they would seem to disprove statements from Kathleen Kennedy that bringing back the Emperor was “part of the plan all along.” It appears that the decision to incorporate the Emperor into the Sequel Trilogy story was made after principal photography of Episode VIII.

    I don’t know if we’ll ever know the full story (I’d love to see the rumored “making of” book by J.W. Rinzler), but implied here is that at least “The Force Awakens” and possibly “The Last Jedi” were made without envisioning the Emperor playing a meaningful role in the Sequel Trilogy.

    I believe that J.J. Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan intentionally left the ending of “The Force Awakens” open-ended so that future filmmakers could take the story in the direction they saw fit, but I don’t believe they likely envisioned that Emperor Palpatine was necessary to complete Rey’s story when writing and producing it. If they did, Lucasfilm would have immediately nailed down a contract with Ian McDiarmid to ensure his availability and participation. With what one could imagine would be a hefty contract with McDiarmid, Lucasfilm would have invariably informed Colin Treverrow of the potential to utilize the character. Treverrow didn’t just say he chose not to use him, he specifically said “its something I never considered.”

    Now,
    If we are to believe that Rey is a direct descendant of Palpatine, it appears unlikely that this was the plan during the development and production of “The Force Awakens.” So while Rey may turn out to be a Palpatine, it appears unlikely that she was envisioned as one during the production of “The Force Awakens.”

    I think each set of filmmakers did their best to tell a compelling story within the parameter handed to them. I also think it was a missed opportunity to not more fully structure a three-film story arc at the beginning of the Sequel Trilogy development process. In any case, I’m really looking forward to Episode IX and can’t wait to see Abrams’ attempt to resolve this enormous saga. May the Force be with us!
     
    • Like Like x 7
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  2. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Posts:
    790
    Likes Received:
    1,222
    Trophy Points:
    4,842
    Credits:
    1,352
    Ratings:
    +1,960 / 104 / -30
    Colin Treverrow didn't have a script after Carrie Fisher died because he threw out the script and story he had been working on at the time and tried to start over, so him saying that he never considered bringing Palpatine became means nothing.
     
    • Wise Wise x 1
  3. Grummgar

    Grummgar Clone

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2019
    Posts:
    37
    Likes Received:
    50
    Trophy Points:
    12
    Credits:
    173
    Ratings:
    +60 / 0 / -0
    I can't remember where I read it but I think Colin Treverrow had planned on using Luke extensively in IX and that is a major reason in him leaving.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Posts:
    790
    Likes Received:
    1,222
    Trophy Points:
    4,842
    Credits:
    1,352
    Ratings:
    +1,960 / 104 / -30
    ^ I've never heard that before.

    As far as I know, Colin was let go because he couldn't pull a story and script together after Carrie's death, even though Lucasfilm hired screenwriter Jack Thorne to help him.
     
    #4 DigificWriter, Dec 2, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Mcbee

    Mcbee Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Posts:
    174
    Likes Received:
    334
    Trophy Points:
    1,852
    Credits:
    823
    Ratings:
    +491 / 3 / -3
    Slightly off-topic- i can't say enough times how happy I am that colin trevorrow is not making star wars. His Jurassic park films couldnt be less imaginative and i wasnt impressed with the technical side of his directing.

    Reagarding palpatine in the sequel trilogy- i think there was always *some* part planned for palpatine in this trilogy. Signs were there early on. Early "leaks" indicated rey's parentage was a lot of people, but a common theory was palpatine. More convincing though is various plots and more in many of the novels and comics etc after the disney purchase. Aftermath and so forth really plant some seeds that hint to palpatine having an influence in future events.

    Now, while i suspect palpatine was going to be a factor in the sequel trilogy- i do think the extent of it shifted, in part due to johnson's choices with TLJ, maybe in part due to some fan reaction, and maybe just because a good idea came to them. I'd bet he was a mcguffin before. Now though? We'll find out soon!
     
    • Like Like x 3
  6. Supreme Leader

    Supreme Leader Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2015
    Posts:
    145
    Likes Received:
    232
    Trophy Points:
    1,382
    Credits:
    613
    Ratings:
    +378 / 34 / -4
    i don't believe he has a role in the ST only in Ep9 because the story literally went nowhere with no dramatic climax given the absence of a vilian. I was told by many users Kylo was a good enough vilian despite being conflicted and easily beaten. if you go back to posts after TLJ you will see numerous users defending the decision to kill Snoke because it helped propel Kylo as the main vilian for Ep9. i never thought this would work and clearly the writers agreed. it would have made more sense to bring Snoke back, IMO. have him be Darth Plagueis and connect the story this way instead of retconning the original trilogy.
     
  7. Logray Ewok Medicine Man

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2019
    Posts:
    99
    Likes Received:
    317
    Trophy Points:
    1,272
    Credits:
    739
    Ratings:
    +446 / 3 / -0
    According to a recent interview with Chris Terrio in Awards Daily, the idea of the Emperor returning appears to have been planted by Kathleen Kennedy and/or Michelle Rejwan. It sounds like Terrio and Abrams had a lot of flexibility and freedom to do what they wanted, but the idea of bringing back the Emperor was raised by Lucasfilm even before Terrio came onboard. He claims Kennedy thought bringing back the Emperor "would be a very strong end for the ninth movie."

    Based on the information that has been coming out, it seems like J.J. Abrams originally envisioned Snoke to be the primary villain of the ST when he wrote and directed "The Force Awakens". Rian Johnson chose to kill off the character in Episode VIII, but didn't hint at who other than Kylo Ren would succeed him for the final film of the Trilogy. I suppose Kathleen Kennedy started to embrace the idea of bringing back the Emperor once she signed off on Johnson's decision to kill off Snoke.

    I think that Kathleen Kennedy was overly optimistic about how "The Last Jedi" would be received by fans, and perhaps her exuberance for Johnson's story gave her too much confidence about the idea of killing off Snoke. We know she thought very highly of the film, and prior to its released announced not just a one-film deal, but a three-film trilogy to be helmed by Rian Johnson. But that still left Lucasfilm with the challenge of creating a satisfying end to both the trilogy and saga.

    With Treverrow unable to deliver a compelling script for IX, the task fell to Abrams and Terrio, with apparently substantial guidance from Kennedy and Rejwan.

    I'm largely happy with the Sequel Trilogy, but I still think one of the biggest missed opportunities was a failure of Lucasfilm to develop a compelling three-film villain arc.
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    • Wise Wise x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. Unseen

    Unseen Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2014
    Posts:
    472
    Likes Received:
    578
    Trophy Points:
    6,717
    Credits:
    1,257
    Ratings:
    +1,049 / 307 / -250
    The emperor was a hail mary. It could have worked had it been executed better and had they not thought we were all stupid.

    Question no one has been able to answer-

    Okay, Palps had a son. Then why did he need Vader or Luke? Why waste his time with them?

    "The emperor had back up plans"

    Okay. He sure spent a lot of time on the Skywalkers though. I am curious how Sheev JR was able to resist his father when Anakin wasn't. Or how he was able to escape. The emperor has all these back up plans, secret fleets, secret apprentices, etc. But...his son gets away?

    And if his son "got away" or whatever...okay. Why did the Jedi hunter kill him? Why was the Jedi hunter only interested in Rey? Why not take Sheev JR to Exegol on some "sorry Palps, the girl got away but here is your son back" ?

    And why not show him use the force? In the flash back, show Sheev JR using the force so its a)a better scene and b)makes it clear the force powers run in the family

    They could have even included a "Unfortunately, your father was foolish and weak. But you? I sense great anger in you" or something.

    SOMETHING.

    But neither JJ nor Terrio clearly cared about much.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 10, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 10, 2020 ---
    Its a missed opportunity to not have an arc for the characters/story for sure.

    But, whats worse, is they made little attempt to have one movie match up with the previous. Or care enough to even include throw away lines that would have helped make some things make more sense or match up.

    They clearly had no plan. No plan for a big villain. No plan for how Rey and Kylo would interact. No plan for Finn. Nothing.

    But worse than that, they didn't even bother to make it look like they had one retroactively. And, in the case of TROS, they didn't even bother to think any of us would use our brains.

    I mean...the Emperor has spent decades building a super fleet for his return. And he...sends out a warning to the galaxy? huh?

    Palps wanted his granddaughter (lol), but not his own son?

    Luke faces off against an entire FO army, and not one mention of it in TROS? Not even in the crawl?

    Luke didn't inspire the galaxy...Leia didn't...but Lando did in like 45 minutes?


    Even the Rey Palpatine reveal. It completely contradicts what Rey herself saw in the previous film, as well as what Kylo saw.

    Theres no "certain point of view" type explanation to make it seem like she was always a Palpatine.

    Kylo said they were drunkards in a grave. They weren't. They were good parents who died on a space ship (right?). And Kylo never lied to her.

    So how did he and Rey get it so wrong? Its like they didn't even take a day to say "Okay, lets work on this scene so it matches up with TLJ". Nope. Just "they wanted to be nobodies...join me". No effort.


    Its like they just wanted to get it over with.
     
    #8 Unseen, Jan 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
    • Like Like x 4
  9. Veronica

    Veronica Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2020
    Posts:
    144
    Likes Received:
    289
    Trophy Points:
    1,157
    Credits:
    452
    Ratings:
    +358 / 9 / -5
    The same reason he wanted Rey. His son either isn’t force sensitive or isn’t as strongly force sensitive as Rey , Luke and Vader.


    It’s stated in the film. Because the parents weren’t being cooperative and would not reveal where Rey was. So he told Oochie to kill them.

    If he wanted to use his grand daughter for the sole reason of being a vessel to transfer his essence into, then, It’s clear that family means nothing to him apart from what he could get out of them. Palpy is a psychopath, they don’t tend to care about anyone else but themselves. A man with that much blood on his hands and that hungry for power wouldn’t think twice about offing a family member.




    Luke was dead, and even before that he refused to leave the island and turned his back on the world so there was no one for him inspire.

    Further the stakes were much, much, much higher in TROS. In TLJ the TFO fleet was considerably diminished. In TROS they had additional ships courtesy of the Sith, complete with planet killing weapons. So Lando’s words along with them staring death in the face (and probably having enough of TFO) would be enough encouragement for people to rally.




    I don’t know what you are referring to.

    In the cave scene in the TLJ when Rey asks to see her ‘parents’ and she sees herself. I guess the magic mirror literally showed her the person who ‘parented’ her. And that’s herself. Rey is a self made woman who raised herself.

    Kylo would only know about her parents from what he saw from investigating in her head and he probably doing an investigation on Jakku.

    Rey’s parents were pretending to be junk traders. That’s all Unkar Plutt and anyone who came into contact with them would know. Rey was either 5-7 years old when she was dropped off on Jakku, we don’t know how long the family was on the run. But it’s understandable that she wouldn’t remember the specifics of what her parents did at such a young age.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  10. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2015
    Posts:
    1,774
    Likes Received:
    67,653
    Trophy Points:
    169,727
    Credits:
    39,926
    Ratings:
    +70,723 / 15 / -4
    This does make sense, think about it-
    His plan hasn't changed. He wants what he has always wanted- unlimited power. He doesn't want to destroy, but to rule entire galaxy therefore of course he's sending out a warning first.

    Unlike in Tfa with the Fo taking out the New Republic, it's now all about ruling the worlds that are left without a functional gouvernement.
     
    • Wise Wise x 4
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,557
    Likes Received:
    4,640
    Trophy Points:
    12,567
    Credits:
    6,077
    Ratings:
    +6,822 / 32 / -13
    Specifically, this comment:

    "Kathy had this overall vision that we had to be telling the same story for nine episodes. Although from the sleight of hand of Episode VII and Episode VIII, you wouldn’t necessarily know immediately that we were telling the same story. She thought it would be a very strong end for the ninth movie. This fits well with J.J. because he loves magic tricks. He will often talk in metaphors and magic tricks, and so in Episode VII and Episode VIII, you think you’re watching one thing but Episode IX tells you to watch more closely – you were actually watching something else. When you rewatch the earlier films, things start to make additional sense. Ren and his devotion to the idea of his grandfather. The voice that he’s always heard in his head. The certain similarities between Snoke and Palpatine. The intention was that, by the time you get to Episode IX, you realize there were real reasons this is all happening. It all shows how this story is being fought cyclically through the series." - Terrio
    Mmmm...Chiastic narrative officially being discussed as the working method.

    [​IMG]

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    • Like Like x 3
  12. Phil J

    Phil J Guest

    Credits:
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I think it is basically like Unleash The Archers song Cleanse The Bloodlines (Apex album) in which the Matriarch sacrifices the children she sired to maintain her immortality.


    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 20, 2020, Original Post Date: Feb 20, 2020 ---
    Writing inconsistencies and last minute revisions are not exactly new to Star Wars. In earlier scripts, Vader and Anakin Skywalker were completely different characters and their relationship wasn't established until The Empire Strikes Back.


    When reading into a comic based on the original script (The Star Wars by Dark Horse), I found the rather attractive character of Prince Valorum (well he would be if he wasn't so young) one of the Knights of the Sith. Sith Knights, just process that for a moment.
    [​IMG]
    And look at the Emperor. Can see the Ming the Merciless/Fu Mancu inspirations.
    upload_2020-2-20_20-27-45.png
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 20, 2020 ---
    Even if they kept him alive, people would be criticising the creative team for there being just another Palpatine archetype. Why did they not make Snoke female? Or better yet, make him a Chad?
    upload_2020-2-20_20-46-13.png
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel General

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2015
    Posts:
    520
    Likes Received:
    920
    Trophy Points:
    4,517
    Credits:
    1,927
    Ratings:
    +1,394 / 37 / -4
    If you ask me, it is Snoke who has no clear role in the ST. Snoke always felt like a stand-in for Palpatine, like maybe having an unoriginal character would be less problematic than bringing a character back from the dead. Except... then they brought him back anyway. In fact, I would say that the retcon that Palpatine created Snoke means that Snoke is basically explicitly acknowledged as a stand in for Palpatine.

    If they had known Palpatine would be back, they should have at least hinted at it in 7 and 8 (or included him directly). Then Snoke might have been unnecessary.

    I never saw Lost, but at least according to what I’ve heard, JJ apparently has a history of saying “It’s not X! It’s not X! Okay, it’s X.”
     
    #13 SegNerd, Jun 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
    • Like Like x 3
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  14. Viper78

    Viper78 Rebel General

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2016
    Posts:
    296
    Likes Received:
    793
    Trophy Points:
    4,667
    Credits:
    1,399
    Ratings:
    +1,005 / 18 / -3
    I'd heard this too.

    There is no way that Palpatine was ever originally planed for the ST because there was no coherent story planned for the ST.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  15. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,557
    Likes Received:
    4,640
    Trophy Points:
    12,567
    Credits:
    6,077
    Ratings:
    +6,822 / 32 / -13
    They aren't required to hint at anything they don't want to, nor required to tell the story in any way other than they want to, and if they had hinted at anything, a bunch of people would just deny the hints, or claim they were lazy or stupid (see detractor's Vader reactions from ESB back in the day).

    People just need to accept that they didn't like certain stuff and move on, rather than continuing endlessly over decades to tell Star Wars how it failed at Star Warsing.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Wise Wise x 2
  16. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2015
    Posts:
    4,364
    Likes Received:
    98,152
    Trophy Points:
    170,017
    Credits:
    52,757
    Ratings:
    +105,850 / 161 / -32
    These days people love Foreshadowing though. Furthermore wouldn't it have been cool if the beginning of TROS had been the ending of TLJ?

    Okay, the best way would have been hinting at Palpatine in TFA and then revealing him in TLJ.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  17. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,557
    Likes Received:
    4,640
    Trophy Points:
    12,567
    Credits:
    6,077
    Ratings:
    +6,822 / 32 / -13
    I've said it before, I didn't know what the production was doing one way or the other, but when I heard Palps' voice in Rey's vision, I smiled, and chuckled a little because I took that to mean he was back.

    I'm not saying that was the reality of why that was there, but it did mean I was far from shocked.

    But I was very delighted.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    • Like Like x 3
  18. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel General

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2015
    Posts:
    520
    Likes Received:
    920
    Trophy Points:
    4,517
    Credits:
    1,927
    Ratings:
    +1,394 / 37 / -4
    The issue for me isn’t just the lack of foreshadowing. A lot of people felt like TFA was implying something like “We don’t need Palpatine because we have Snoke,” and since Serkis confirmed at one point that Snoke was over 1,000 years old, it seemed like they were trying to make it sound like they had a clear plan for some sort of “Super Palpatine” that would blow the doors off everything we knew.

    For TROS to end up revealing that it was just original Palpatine all along - something that they had basically already denied - for lack of a better word, it feels like a bit of a bait and switch.
     
    • Like Like x 6
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  19. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Posts:
    1,944
    Likes Received:
    4,748
    Trophy Points:
    13,017
    Credits:
    4,724
    Ratings:
    +7,224 / 32 / -9
    I must have the world’s worst hearing or crappiest audio setup or something. I’ve seen a breakdown with the exact timestamp of his line “Any Jedi…”, but I just don’t hear it when I listen back. I’m legitimately dumbstruck and in total awe of anyone who truthfully picked that out the first time in the theater. It’s insane to me.

    To then go it one further and surmise it must have had more significance than any of the other voices we hear is thoroughly baffling for me. I’m legitimately bewildered by the assertion it was actually intended as establishment for where the story ultimately went.
    Well, not ORIGINAL original Palpatine. More like a faded Xerox that was low on toner . . . Palpatine.

    Snoke, to me, read just like Star Killer Base: a cheap knock-off that was bigger and meaner looking, but not much actual substance behind it*. When RJ dropped that superfluous goon from the story, I was thrilled. When JJ then revealed that that was literally what he was - the poor man’s Emperor, I liked it. But I get where you’re coming from. TFA gives the impression that he’d be more broadly impactful going forward. I was personally never invested though, so I’m glad he wound up being a disposable razor in the end.

    *Yeah, SKB touches on the mechanization of nature theme. A living planet is perverted by artificiality and hateful weaponization to become a giant gun to rain death on other worlds. It mirrors the infection of totalitarianism the FO intends to spread through the galaxy. It rhymes with Anakin's becoming more machine the more he loses his humanity. But in application though, it’s really just a bigger Deathstar.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  20. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,557
    Likes Received:
    4,640
    Trophy Points:
    12,567
    Credits:
    6,077
    Ratings:
    +6,822 / 32 / -13
    Meh. Even if it is, meh.

    A huge part of the problem that I see, in my opinion, is that people now have waaaaay to much information about film production gossip and news.
    If all of these same production moments had happened in 1965 to 1990, or anywhere between, no one would care because no one would have known until far after the films were over with, and would only have known from some magazine covering bits of information about the making of the films.

    Now, however, it's "normal" to twitter stalk a production and analyze the ever-loving-crap out of every sentence and image related to the film production and jump off into a bunch of ideas and opinions about it.
    Hell, people now just jump at social media accounts of people on the production and just start feeding back their opinions in near-real-time.

    I mean, Johnson just sits there and reads tweets at one point in the making of documentary during production.

    I agree with Hamill. It's a really good thing they didn't have any of this when making ESB.

    I can't say that it was one thing or the other - true to Star War form, there's muddled information about stuff that was going on in TFA in regards to Palpatine.

    I definitely couldn't speak for the production when I was sitting in the theater in 2015.
    What I can say is that when I heard that voice, I made an assumption that we would be seeing Palpatine, and I was tickled by the idea.

    It meant something to me that his voice was present because usually bad people voices or images in visions in Star Wars means the hero having the vision is going to interact with those bad people. I've not seen a film have bad people sound or images shown to a hero in a Star Wars film that doesn't lead to them facing off against those bad people...so...I just made an assumption based on what I'm used to.

    I didn't put much weight in it, and I didn't focus on it, but it was an experience that I had.
    And I didn't put much weight in it because, as many folks are aware of around here, I don't play around with speculating what's going to happen in the future of a film series. To me, that's the antithesis of why I'm there. That is the main way to ruin a film for me and cause me not want to go see it.

    I don't even do that while I"m watching a film. If I do, then I'll likely get bored and stop watching the film, or at the very least, get very disinterested in the film.

    Films are the moment and wonder. Anything that takes anything from that, ruins films for me, so I didn't speculate beyond that momentary popped thought in my mind. I had it, I smiled, and then I promptly put it away and refocused on what I was watching.

    As to hearing it.
    It happens right here. 1.14. I've queued it to 1.13.
    It's literally the only vocal audio at the moment, and no forward sound is competing with it. There's just background sound.
    It happens right as the camera switches to Rey after Kylo starts walking toward her.

    It was very definite in the theater (theater's are f###ing WAY too loud anymore).

    CLICK FOR VIDEO

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #20 Jayson, Jun 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2020
    • Like Like x 3
Loading...

Share This Page