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The Emperor's Role in the Sequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Logray Ewok Medicine Man, Nov 25, 2019.

  1. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    There it is!!
    [​IMG]
    I was beginning to think it was the audio equivalent to one of those 'magic eye' pictures I could never see :)

    Thanks a half million. Wait, no. You know what, thanks a million :D
     
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  2. Trev

    Trev Rebel Official

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    Up until I read through this thread, I had no idea that Palpatine’s voice was included in Rey’s vision. That’s really interesting. However, aside from that –– and I suppose you could argue the use of Palpatine’s theme when Snoke interrogates Rey in The Last Jedi does this as well –– there really isn’t any foreshadowing of Palpatine’s return in the Sequel Trilogy. As much as Kathleen Kennedy might claim he was always intended to return, I don’t think he was.

    My understanding was that early versions of The Force Awakens script included Palpatine in some way, shape or form because they were also originally supposed to explore the underwater remains of the Death Star. That was obviously scrapped, but unless she’s referring to that, I think Colin Trevorrow’s statements coupled with the mere existence of The Last Jedi kind of invalidate Kathleen Kennedy’s claims about Palpatine.

    That being said, I do think his place in the Sequel Trilogy story makes sense when you look at the Skywalker Saga as one cohesive narrative. The idea that Palpatine was behind everything, from Episode I all the way through Episode IX makes perfect sense. The execution of his involvement in the sequels, though, is very sloppy, and that’s why I don’t think it was always planned. I also think there are other ways the story could’ve been written to tie everything back to him without him being resurrected in a way that, for many people, felt like a retcon of his fate Return of the Jedi.

    For as much emphasis as they placed on Palpatine’s return in the marketing of the film, The Rise of Skywalker did very little to actually address any of the questions that arose as a result of it. The audience is just supposed to accept that Palpatine survived, and while it might work with any other film franchise, that expectation for the audience is obviously not going to work for something like Star Wars. If Lucasfilm was going to do what they did with Palpatine in The Rise of Skywalker, there should’ve been a clearer explanation for it, instead of relying on interviews and novelizations to fill in those crucial details. (Honestly, as someone who enjoyed the film, I can attest to the fact that one of its biggest flaws is its reliance on outside materials to fill in the plotholes that it creates.)

    We could spend forever talking about what Lucasfilm could’ve done, though. At the end of the day, this is what we got, and it was FAR from perfect. Honestly, I’m not sure how a property as calculated and heavily guarded as Star Wars could realistically have the number of narrative inconsistencies that the Sequel Trilogy has. But I’ve also heard that significant portions of The Rise of Skywalker were reworked or omitted before it was released to theaters, and some of that was done without J.J.’s approval. I’m not sure how true that is, but I’m grateful that, in spite of the obvious flaws the film has, I’m still able to enjoy it. At the end of the day, it’s all Star Wars to me.
     
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  3. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    You got it.

    There's a world's difference between a fan's idea of something being "planned from the beginning" and a producer's idea of the same thing.

    For example: See Lucas' comments about whether he "planned" 7 through 9, and start from ESB interviews and work your way through the 90's.
    What you'll walk away with is "planned", to Lucas at those times, meant actively engaged in a studio preproduction or production phase, which he was not, but that doesn't mean the idea wasn't there and wanted.

    Kennedy is almost certainly referring to a similar kind of "planned" as this: wanted, but likely uncertain.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  4. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
    1030th Grand Admiral ***** (Mod)

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    For the sake of argument, I recall there being a lot of "evidence" floated around fan sites (this one included) post TFA, arguing that Ray was a Palpatine. For instance, Ray's lightsaber fighting style in TFA was one element touted as "proof" that she was somehow connecte, actually and/or thematically, to Palpatine. Now, I didn't believe these at the time, but one could certainly now regarde those "evidences" as foreshadowing a Palpatine plot in the wings of the ST. Along with, obviously, Palpatine's Forceback voice and such.
     
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  5. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    To be frankly honest, I had actually thought it would be cool if Palps was a force inside of her that possessed her and she had to battle that possession and deal with all the evil she did while he was driving.

    This had a charm of bringing the "puppeteer" bit of the Whills Lucas was thinking about in, and made Palps more into a metaphor of evil actualized in our id. Like Palps was coming out whenever she lost her temper kind of thing.

    However, I threw it out immediately as possible because that just doesn't mirror anything in the other films at all; regardless how neat it might seem.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #25 Jayson, Jun 24, 2020
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  6. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
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    Well, a lot about TRoS was unlike anything seen in other SW films, so it could quite possibly have worked. And it would also have been a nice Dune Series homage (which we know Star Wars is absolutely packed full of already), making Ray the possessed Alia who fought and beat her possessor. I'd like that quite a bit ;)

    That said, I'm perfectly fine with TRoS, and the ST as a whole (although I'm not so keep on the 2nd & 3rd act of TFA, except for most scenes involving Ray or Kylo).

    PS: I managed to initially write this reply as an edit in your post, @Jayson :eek: I hope I didn't screw up something...
     
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  7. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I recall there being substantially more revolving around her being a Kenobi. If that had been the reveal in TROS instead, I imagine the claim would be that it was all foreshadowed as well, even though nothing in the actual story supports it.
     
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  8. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    that's how TFA was constructed. There was no right or wrong answer to who Rey was based on the evidence in the film.
     
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  9. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Of all the ideas, I found this one to be the most ridiculous.
    It never made any sense. Nothing in her character ever felt sympathetic with that idea.
    This and the "child of Luke" all felt like such moon set pellet gun wishful thinking.

    The Palp one always seemed interesting, but to be frankly honest, I wasn't really sure where they were going to go.
    This whole series has been one which was, for me, holding my breath that they don't f- it up with something that just didn't feel like it made sense symbolically and symmetrically, and resolved with me being delighted in where they went because, for me, each step made sense once it happened.

    I didn't make predictions (except for one that I was pressed to make by others) because I just don't like doing that, but I did see titles of threads, and yeah...let's just assume her lineage was arrived at after-the-fact in TROS...that fits far better than saying she was a Kenobi or child of Luke. Looking back over either TFA or TLJ, neither of those make any sense to me at all. With Palps, sure maybe things weren't there because it was planned - maybe they were, but we'll assume they weren't - those elements make far more sympathetic sense in style with Palps than with Luke or Obi.

    Everyone jumped on those two, but man...who missed the previous films where everything to do with a realization is NEVER a joyful return and is ALWAYS a tragedy for the character?
    Why would Rey ever come into a finale realizing a truth that brings her great and wonderful joy about her lineage because it's this amazingly good guy?

    This is Star Wars!
    No one gets that kind of moment in Star Wars. The only happiness available is in beating the evil back after practically losing your soul (or, on the flip side, you get a bright happy moment early on, and then watch it torn entirely away and suffer horribly in loss).

    Anyway, yeah...I never truly gave much interest in the idea of who she belonged to, but of the three major ideas floating around, Luke and Obi always seemed the most unbelievable to me, and I'm really happy they didn't yank that out because it really would be out of nowhere for the entire saga.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  10. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Resident Sand Hater

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    I loved TFA and TLJ initially, but TROS has made me a bit sour on the Sequel Trilogy as a whole. I do think Palpatine being the antagonist makes perfect sense but the build-up and execution of that idea was disappointingly poor in my opinion.

    Ideally, I would’ve had Palpatine show up as a spirit in the first two films and then somehow come back in the flesh by the third. Whether it be a physical apparition or just as a voice, he could’ve been a dark version of what Obi-Wan’s spirit was to Luke in the Original Trilogy. Spirit Sheev could’ve guided Ben further along in his journey towards becoming heir to the Sith and setting the stage for his return to the physical realm, which is more or less what he was doing in TROS but with more build up from the previous movies. Maybe they could go with something like the old shoulder angel and devil trope with Palpatine serving the devil role and Anakin serving as the angel.

    All in all though, I accept the story TROS gave us, even if I wasn’t as satisfied as JJ promised I would be. You certainly won’t see me endlessly complaining about it for 2+ years. :p
     
    #30 The Hero With No Fear, Jun 24, 2020
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  11. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Yeah, I never really understood it either. I don’t think the notion ever went much more beyond “Hey, wouldn’t it be cool if the main conflict was between the grandkid of Anakin and the grandkid of Obi-Wan? It’s like poetry. It rhymes. That's a thing Star Wars does, right?”
    I’d say “I can make sense of it” rather than it purely “making sense” to me natively. With all the pieces collected and assembled now, I can see the picture, but I kind of have to squint to smooth it out. Like different artists working on different sections of the same mural. It mostly lines up . . . I guess. As long as I don’t look too close.
    I agree. It’s the classic ‘be careful what you wish for’. ‘You wanted to reunite with your family, right? Well, here you go - Monkey’s Paw style’. That’s certainly in-line with what’s preceded. ‘So, you wanna be just like your dad, huh? You sure ‘bout that?’ You turn the hero’s objective against them and now they have to grow beyond what they thought they wanted. Good stuff. It’s not mandatory, but you’re right. Those alternatives aren’t particularly formative.
    I’m still a touch tender over the death of ‘Rey Nobody’. But that’s on me :)
     
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  12. Trev

    Trev Rebel Official

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    You’re right, and I’m glad you mentioned that. I never bought that Lucasfilm was actually trying to foreshadow anything there, but I do recall seeing a lot about how Rey’s fighting style echoes that of Palpatine’s. However, even the inclusion of Palpatine’s voice in Rey’s vision was incredibly subtle –– there was FAR more emphasis on Obi-Wan being heard in it, which I’m sure contributed to the speculation that Rey was a Kenobi.

    I think @Jayson has made a lot of really excellent points in this thread, and while I won’t bother quoting all of them for the sake of redundancy, I do want to acknowledge a few of them. First and foremost, I couldn’t agree more –– Rey being Luke’s daughter or Obi-Wan’s granddaughter both just felt very out-of-left-field. The connection to Luke made a bit more sense because: (1) he was the only character whose relation to Rey would give her the Skywalker name; (2) Rey was obviously following in the footsteps of Anakin and Luke as the Jedi protagonist of the trilogy; and (3) her relationship with Luke had been pretty obviously set up as being important from the moment they meet at the end of The Force Awakens. However, out of the main three ideas floating around for much of the trilogy (Solo, Skywalker and Kenobi), Rey Solo made the most sense (and even that was pretty explicitly debunked by The Force Awakens).

    Honestly, I think Rey being a nobody would’ve worked really well for this trilogy, and while I’m still a bit bummed they didn’t go that route, I’m not at all disappointed with the reveal that she was a Palpatine, and I love the idea of her taking on the Skywalker name by the end of the trilogy. I do think the execution and explanation for Rey Palpatine could’ve been better, but like Jayson pointed out, there’s more evidence throughout the Sequel Trilogy to support Rey being a Palpatine than there is for her being a Skywalker or Kenobi.
     
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  13. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    I don’t think the issue is whether they made the right choice about whether Rey was a Palpatine, a Kenobi, a nobody, or something else. I think the issue is that they waited until the end of the trilogy to make that choice. This left them scrambling to glue the pieces together instead of writing it that way from the beginning.
     
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  14. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Ever read the first swings at ROTJ's story? ;)
    Scrambling abounds!

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  15. Lukestarbucker

    Lukestarbucker Force Sensitive

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    I was so shocked when I saw in Episode 9 that Palps was back. I didn’t expect this character to be alive. A surprise to be sure but a welcome one. Well, I am not too fond of Palpatine returning because his death was so pivotal in Anakon and Luke skywalker’s character arc and development. Anyway, I guess his role was really to shock the audience and shock Rey. Rey was technically a Palpatine, but she feels closer to the force so she claims she is a Skywalker. That scene needed Palpatine to be present because thats here genes. And when she says that she is all the jedi as a response to “I am all the Sith”, it really capitalizes here character arc and development and I think thats what Palpatine was really there for. Also he made for a shocking antagonist, see what I did there ;)
     
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