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SPOILER The Ending: Beautiful, but problematic

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by NinjaRen, Jan 5, 2020.

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Did you like the ending on Tatooine

  1. Yes

    61 vote(s)
    68.5%
  2. No

    16 vote(s)
    18.0%
  3. I would have preferred... (please post down below)

    12 vote(s)
    13.5%
  1. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel Commander

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    Nobody taught Anakin. It was not know when he was training and then he was a Sith up to about 5 minutes before he died most of which was used hobbling to the shuttle bay and taking off his helmet.

    Until informed otherwise, if you fade you have transformed sentient into the force.
     
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  2. TK-1204

    TK-1204 Imperial Special Forces
    1030th General **** (Mod)

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    From what I understand, Anakin got a free pass for being the "Chosen One". Luke had the time and likely the training thanks to his ghost mentors, though I am uncertain if Leia ever received it since she called it quits on being a Jedi early on. If I'm being honest, regardless of the reasons put together by the Story Group to maintain a semblance of consistency with how the mechanics of maintaining sentience after death work, at the end of the day it all boils down to plot convenience. In this regard, I'm perfectly alright with Luke, Leia & Ben being together again as a happy family of Force ghosts, as it wraps up Ben's tumultuous character arc without being too tragic and leaves wiggle room for him to appear again in future stories in all his spooky blue glory.

    I wonder what sort of awkward conversations Ben and Anakin had when the fam greeted him in the "nether realm of the Force"?
     
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  3. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    Cantakerous means "bad-tempered, argumentative, and uncooperative" so I feel that describes TLJ Luke "act 1" pretty succinctly . Your post here is going through lengths to show that, and I don't disagree with it. What I'm saying is that despite this, Luke does teach Rey the fundamentals. Begrudgingly so. He doesn't want to teach her, but he consents to it in order to get her to leave.

    Okay, great. Note the final line: I will teach you the ways of the Jedi. He is going to teach her the fundamentals. This is what I'm saying. Yes, he's going to also tell her why he thinks the Jedi need to end. But he's teaching her the ways of the Jedi, true? True.

    He's not "trolling" Rey in the sense that she's getting no real lessons from him. If I think working on car engines needs to end, and you show up asking me to teach you how to build an engine, and I procede to teach you how to build an engine - while commenting why you shouldn't: you're still learning the fundamentals of building an engine, true? True.

    It's certainly Luke being "bad-tempered, argumentative, and uncooperative." While teaching Rey the fundamentals of the way of the Jedi. Again, if I teach you the ways of the Jedi, and my bad-temepered and argumentative reasons why I think the Jedi (whose ways I have been teaching you) should end - I've still taught you the ways of the Jedi, true? True.

    I think the dark side cave was wanting to show her what she would fear most - herself. Luke was shown his worst fear of becoming Vader, Rey was shown her worst fear of finding out who she was. Rey was looking for her parents and trying to find her identity. The answer to that caused her to fear herself. So in the cave she saw nothing but herself.

    Is it? The point of TLJ was that failure was one of the great lessons (i.e. enlightenment) to pass on to the student. The problem was that Luke wasn't willing to understand that lesson in a positive light. When Luke called out the PT Jedi for allowing Sidious to come to power, Luke wasn't wrong. The PT Jedi failed. Kenobi himself exclaimed, "I have failed you, Anakin. I have failed you."

    Luke does want Rey to understand his point of view, no doubt about that. While teaching Rey the fundamentals of the way of the Jedi, Luke teaches her the legacy of the Jedi as he sees it: failure. All the PT Jedi had to offer was, their failure. All Luke has to offer through them, is what? His failure. And what good is failure? What enlightenment can possibly come of failure? I hope you're following the rhetorical nature of my line of questions here. Because the answer is going to come back as the keystone of the fundamentals.

    Oh does Yoda's lesson about the enlightenment of failure being key to the lessons the teacher passes on to the student allowing them to grow beyond, have nothing to do with this whole thing about the legacy of failure?

    Slow clap for the cantankerous Act 1 Luke, who taught Rey the fundamentals. What about the Luke who showed up as the paragon of the Jedi to face-down mind-trick the entire FO, act in a purely defensive final stand which saved Rey and the Resistance, saving hope for the galaxy and igniting the fire? How about Luke who came to Rey during her dark night of the soul in order to pass on that final keystone lesson, completing her training and allowing her to stand up and face her fear as a Jedi? How about Luke the final voice in the thousand generations strengthening Rey to RISE.

    Still slow clapping for Luke? All you're doing is pointing at Luke at his lowest and measuring the man by that moment as if your estimation of him is just and true because you can point at the nadir and "slow clap" for Luke. But, slow clap or no clap: Act 1 Luke still taught Rey the fundamentals of the ways of the Jedi.

    Right, and Yoda taught Luke to reach out, as well. "Hooray!!"? Slow clap for Yoda? You know, this is Star Wars the Flash Gordon-inspired space opera, true? The mentor says "Reach out" "Use the force" "Between the rock and the tree" "A powerful ally" and the student does some flips; and we move on.

    Luke is legendary. Rey would have legendary knowledge of Luke. If I ask you what did King Arthur do; do you know? If Rey knows the name Luke Skywalker in a way that causes her to exclaim the name with awe, then she knows his story. Not to mention she's the character vehicle of the audience. That these things are true is evidenced in Han saying, "It's true. All of it." meaning that Rey is aware of Luke's story in much the same manner as we, the audience.

    Well, the richest is the dark night of the soul in TLJ Luke and TROS Rey, which experience both shared in turn. That single experience is a greater "familial" connection than any experience shared with anyone else. The fundamentals followed by the completion is the rich experience Rey shared with Luke as the two "Last Jedi" and the two galactic "hopes". That shared experience as Jedi is the heart of Rey's story as a Jedi. Rey, knowing Luke's previous legend, allows her to understand the two share a road that only the two of them have walked.

    If a person pulls a sword from a stone to become ruler of a land, gathers a council, sets in motion a quest for a legendary relic, saves the land, fights in battle, and ends up sailing away to a mystic isle and then someone asks, "What is your name?" and the reply is "Pendragon"? Make sense to you? Or are you asking how does this make sense?

    Keystone implies most important. As stated in the narrative of TLJ the most important lesson is failure, and the teacher passing that lesson on so the student can grow beyond. Do you understand the context of "greatest" and "key"?

    I'm talking about both. I would, however, be remiss if I didn't again state that this is, of course, Star Wars. It's not a deep-dive character study. And in this space opera, Rey and Luke are almost identitcal characters in both them and character. The character closest to Leia's theme and character, is Poe.

    I find your statements "I'm comprehending fine" and "had it been more evidenced" as self-evident contradictory statements. I don't believe anything could have elicited a positive reaction from you in regards to this and no matter how "evidenced" the moment, it would never have been enough and your previous statement, "Not good enough" would always be your predetermined evaluation as it generally is when evaluating the criticism of internet criticism. "It's not good enough" being the statement, "and it can never be" being the unstated axiom of the evaluation. I conclude this evidenced by your continual painting of Luke in the worst possible light <slow clap> in order to try to disconnect him from Rey as "familial" in spirit. A person with a clear bias is a person attempting to remain in the negative outlook no matter the cost, even if it means the rejection of obviously identitical identity parallels in both theme and character. Rey is as equal a "spiritual" twin to Luke, as Leia is "blood" twin to him.
     
    #183 iostream, Jan 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
  4. DarthDestructor

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    Loved hearing Anakin talk to rey especially his "balance the force as I did" comment and her yellow bladed saber :)
     
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  5. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Even though I didn't post anything in this thread lately, here I am with some thoughts again...


    Yes, there is definitely beauty in Ben's sacrificial love, but his ending was also a betrayal.

    Ben and Rey are a symbol of the Force- their Dyad is "a power like life itself." Not only should Ben’s life force had been strong enough to save them both, but his death hurts the will of the Force. One person was never going to balance the dark and the light side alone, but two joining together. A Yin without its Yang can't do this, and IMO balance was never really achieved in TROS. Yes, the bad guys were defeated, but that's pretty much it.

    Furthermore Ben's death is incoherent with the narrative. The saga is/was about forgiveness, love and hope.

    Ben dying as punishment for his actions is not really effective for this narrative. Redeeming yourself in the eyes of other people though... How often do we see a redeemed character apologize for their deeds? The notion that Ben can't find living redemption in a fictional story drains the hope from that very story.

    The movie took the lazy route by refusing to dedicate time in Ben Solo's redemption.
     
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  6. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    Im conflicted. On one hand he no longer has to suffer through the likes of Snoke and Palpatine or what it means to be the decedent of Han and Leia. No one who could want him would abuse him for his power again. Is Ben completely innocent? No, of course not. It's canon he wiped out several villages just to find Luke. Becoming one with the Force like is grandfather. In that, his grandfather never had to continue to live with his consequences. Anakin was finally free and thus he became his old self again in the Force. That said, "through the force things you will see: the future, the past old friends long gone."
     
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Disregarding whether or not I agree with anything else you posted, this seems to be a major factor in a lot of complaints.
     
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  8. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Ruh roh, Shaggy. You know the conversation has begun its languished lurch toward hospice care when someone busts out the dictionary to try and make a point. Good night, sweet prince of beating my head against a wall, and flights of angels sing thee to thy rest :D

    Here’s the thing about TLJ Luke: from his perspective, he IS helping. That’s the whole reason he’s farting around on that rock in the first place. The caustic and obstinate Luke we get is actually fairly short lived and is in direct reaction to Rey’s initial recruitment efforts. Luke genuinely and fervently believes that he and the Jedi religion are a danger to the galaxy - that everyone would be better off without them. So he removes himself from the equation. In his mind, it’s a noble gesture enacted for the greater good. So there’s nothing begrudging about the scenario at all. He honestly wants to “teach” Rey what he’s come to accept as the truth. To sell it as merely cantankerous or curmudgeonly does his journey in the film a substantial disservice and wildly misses the point.

    And here’s the rub: what he wants to teach her is antithetical to Rey’s journey. Let me know if you see any commonality in these statements.

    Luke: It's time for the Jedi to end.
    Kylo: It's time to let old things die.
    Snoke: We will give him and the Jedi Order the death he desires.

    Luke’s tenet in that movie is in accord with the villains of the piece. That’s right. Luke Skywalker, from a functional level, is operationally an antagonist to Rey in that story. He’s an obstacle for our protagonist to overcome. He’s the third length to a triad of powerful male figures attempting to domineer and subdue our burgeoning heroin. When people make the pained bemoaning of ‘not my Luke’ (whether they’re entirely conscious of it) this is what they’re referring to. Rian Johnson turned the champion of the OT into a pseudo-villain for his episode of the ST. Which, in my opinion, is absolutely phenomenal!

    I can’t begin to tell you how much I respect RJ for going this route. The linchpin to Luke’s arc in the OT orbited around the multifaceted supposition of him becoming his father - first, as an aspirational motive, then as a mortal dread, then as a cathartic reprise. What TLJ does so d@mn brilliantly is ratify that element. Luke ultimately DID become his father. He’d lost sight of his righteousness. He’d followed a dark path. He’d attempted to corrupt a paragon of virtue. But at the very end, he was also redeemed. The Jedi had returned and had unselfishly given his life to protect something worth protecting. And in that chosen act, by finding a non-violent resolution, he’s also echoing the moment he threw down his weapon in the face of the Emperor: his greatest personal victory. Father and son becoming one and resolving together. Now THAT’S how you marry theme and character. F**king beautiful.
    What’s true is that you’ve constructed an arbitrary framework to express your personal interpretation of the relational structure. You’re then using that incidental structure as your basis of assigning relevance. Again, you’re talking ‘theme’. I’m talking ‘character’. I’m approaching this from Rey’s perspective. I’m attempting to look at it from her point of view. Not the ‘god’s eye view’, top-down method you’re applying. How would Rey, the person, truly think and feel with respect to what her actual experience was given what he know about her?

    Rey never met third act Luke. She wasn’t there to witness his phantasmic showdown with Kylo. She didn’t get to hear his pronouncement of reinvestment. From her perspective, Luke Skywalker was a figure of wonderous renown who had miserably failed to live up to her expectations. His last altruistic deed was yet another feat relayed to her second hand. She went to this man, this legend, with the hopes of finding an advocate. What she found was an adversary. In so challenging her, he made her a better person, but would that be the sort of formative experience she would regard fondly? Would he persevere in her mind as an aspirational figure, or more of an anti-role model? That’s where I’m coming from here. Given what we got, I feel it would be more of the latter. That’s my genuine interpretation.
    Interesting comparison. Let me fix it for you. If I came to you wanting to know about car engines and you open the hood of a car, show me its engine, and then launch into a lecture on why the United Automobile Workers organization is corrupt and broken and needs to end - have you really taught me what I came there for? From MY perspective? No, you haven’t. You’ve simply manipulated my interest into selling me on your own private agenda. However valuable you might believe that lesson to be, it’s disingenuous and I would recognize it as such.
    Provided you’ve missed the point of the Luke character, sure. Rey didn’t come to him to learn about the Jedi. She came to him to learn about the Force. The two concepts are being conflated in her head. Luke’s first lesson starts by untangling them, but then proceeds down the fork that mattered to HIM and not her.
    My point is that she went to the cave in search of the answers she wasn’t going to get from Luke. Not because he couldn’t but because he wouldn’t. Then she went looking for them in an even more dangerous place. That forced her down the road of self-discovery. That’s ultimately a positive outcome stemming from a negative catalyst. That’s terrific character development, but that’s not likely the takeaway that the Rey character herself would have. What if she hadn’t possessed the moral fortitude to reject Kylo’s offer? Luke would have effectively pushed her to the darkside just like Ben. His diversion would have been completely meaningless if Rey hadn’t stayed the course out of her own sense of right and wrong in rejection of Luke’s lessons.
    What I meant was that this was definitely not the lesson Luke was originally planning on teaching Rey.
    You mean the final stand that Rey wasn’t there to see or hear? Sure, once someone got around to telling her about it, I bet that probably was pretty pleasing for her to know. I’m sure she felt a splendid degree of vindication and affirmation that he’d recommitted himself to the path she’d already embraced in spite of him. I imagine that would have been very encouraging, but not particularly transformative.
    How about TROS pretty much glossing over the combative nature of their dynamic in TLJ and reframing it as paternal instead because that worked better for the story JJ wanted to tell?
    Ironically? In that his selfish efforts sent our protagonist running straight into the hands of the enemy? Yep. That’s causally indefensible. A led to B.
    No, I’m measuring what correlative mental and emotional impact this lowest state of his potentially had strictly on the central character’s perception of the man, independent of that man’s journey. It’s called ‘compartmentalizing’. You can look at both and evaluate each on its own terms. People can walk and chew gum at the same time. I’ve seen it.
    Yoda’s lessons were in support of what the hero was attempting to achieve. Luke’s lessons were decidedly not. I’m not sure why those would be equivalent in your mind. They’re intentionally opposites. Please don’t tell me you just moved on without considering that.
    Meaning she’s clearly heard ‘something’ about this person she wasn’t entirely sure had actually existed. “I thought he was a myth.” That connotes incredulity, not awe. She doubted this guy was even real. But regardless, what does that mean to her? Did she idolize Luke growing up? Was he a childhood hero of hers? A source of inspiration in dark times? Is she modeling herself after his example? Is that why she wants to be a Jedi? We get next to no establishment on this from her perspective in order to enrich the character. Expecting the audience to project their own perceptions onto a character reduces them to little more than a cipher. If a work of fiction presented a character expressing the desire to emulate King Arthur, but didn’t bother to enunciate exactly why that was important to the character, I’d be equally underwhelmed. Relying on the audience's cultural knowledge in lieu of real character development is simply lazy.
    And I just disagree with that conclusion. Rey wanted a family. Leia gave that to her. She wanted greater insight into what to do with this power inside her. Leia gave that to her too. Luke was there for her when she was at her lowest and was able to relate to her in the exact way she needed at that exact moment. In that act, he finally became the person she had wanted him to be. That matters. It absolutely does. To the extent that she would consider him “family” and want to take his name? In my estimation, considering the fraught nature beforehand, no. You disagree and I’m happy that element worked for you. Maybe it will for me someday too when I’m able to put aside the disjointed stripe of it. Right now? No.
    If I ask myself the question “why did they want any of that in the first place?” and the answer isn’t readily apparent, then yes, I’m asking how that makes sense. Make sense?
    Certainly. This comes down to how we individually interpret what’s presented. You seem to only consider your own interpretations as the correct interpretation. Any deviation or dissenting opinion from that perceived correctness is then deemed as wrong in your eyes. I approach works of fiction from the inside-out. You seem to approach it from the outside-in. You’re asking ‘what’ and I’m asking ‘why’. You don’t appear to be willing or able to look at the circumstances from an alternative angle. That’s perfectly fine. You don’t have to. You’re the master of your own reality I suppose.
    And again, that’s indicative of our differential entry points. For me, character is everything. That’s how I engage with a story. That’s how it envelops me and I invest in the weight of the action. I need to grasp their motivations. What drives them? How do these experiences shape them? How do they then grow and evolve? I’m along for THAT ride. If I can’t digest that, if I can’t relate, then I lose interest. All the themes and structure and chiasma are rendered little more than pointlessly academic to me. A soulless intellectual exercise. I’m left unfulfilled. But that’s me.

    Rey doesn’t know she’s a fictional character inhabiting a make-believe world. She hasn’t been given a stats sheet to study and self asses. She doesn’t know she’s this trilogy’s analog for Luke. What we know about her is that, because of her childhood, she’s terrified of abandonment (of loss) and desperate for belonging (family). We know that those are her principle motivating factors. The climax positions the Jedi as the facilitators for both. All the Jedi that ever were, have always been, and always will be, with her. And with that catharsis of comprehension, she will in essence never be abandoned and will always belong. Groovy. That’s some bang up character work.

    TROS also promotes the premise that the Skywalker twins were instrumental to that catharsis. They combined were the gateway. This is emblemized by Rey using their respective Jedi weapons to defend herself and defeat the embodiment of the darkside. That’s some bang up thematic work. Rey adopts the name as a means to reject her own dark lineage and embrace the one that embraced her. Lovely. I’m all onboard with that conceptually.

    Where it falls down for me is the unearned (in my opinion) reverence for Luke and truncated path to ‘Leia Skywalker’. After going on this journey with Rey and going through the experiences she’s had, it rings as hollow to me. I don’t totally buy it. It doesn’t feel quite right to me and I can’t help but think that maybe if they’d spent more time building those elements instead of perfunctory widget hunting, I’d feel differently. But those are my priorities. That’s what I value.
    This is such a tragically misguided and superficial outlook. It’s effectively invalidating the premise of criticism in general. If someone expresses their experience with a piece and it’s contrary to yours, you can simply cast them as being intellectually dishonest instead of accepting that different people engage with art in different ways. It’s so small minded and sad. I don’t know how old you are, but I sincerely hope you’re rather young and have plenty of years to outgrow this limited perception and lack of regard for other people’s opinions and appreciations. You’re really only stifling yourself.

    Good luck to you, kid.
     
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  9. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    giphy (66).gif
     
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  10. Chairman Kaga

    Chairman Kaga Rebel Official

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    @eeprom is coming at this from a more nuanced perspective than me, and also has more time to write an opinion. My single largest issue with TROS, and it essentially breaks the entire narrative thrust of the trilogy, is much more straightforward. The most interesting and status quo busting story element from TLJ - specifically the belief that the Force doesn't "belong" to any one group of people - was not addressed whatsoever. It seemed apparent to me that Johnson took the title The Force Awakens literally, implying that by eliminating the dogma surrounding the appropriateness of using it as a "power," its true agnostic nature could be revealed. Throughout the movie, he was making it clear that the Force is greater than the Jedi or Sith, and that this awakening had occurred across the universe, ie Broom Boy. At least that was how I perceived it. It seemed the story was becoming larger, finally. The Lesson One scene with Luke and Rey was laying out a grander vision, and the Tree Scene between Luke and Yoda cemented it. With the right handler the final chapter could have realized that grand vision. Instead, it essentially reverted to status quo. No guts.
     
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  11. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    You didn't seem to understand the meaning of the abstract word so I defined it to clarify my use. Defining terms for clarity is a fundamental of meaningful dialogue.

    Begrudgingly means ... Look, you use the word "obstinate" then state there's nothing "begrudging" about him. Do you know the meanings of the word you're employing, or are you not aware of your own self-contradictory statements? It's because of things like this that I'm already aware that you're not wanting a meaningful and honest dialogue, but have entrenched yourself on a single hill and plan on dying there.

    Great. And he also trained Rey in the fundamentals. Her training began with him. He is the foundation of her training. True? That's a nice wall of words but you're using it to try to sidestep my point. Did or did not Luke begin Rey's training? Is he or is he not the foundation?

    This is not arbitrary, do you know what the words you are using actually mean? The specific reason I am asking is in relation to how Luke relates to Rey in her journey as teacher. Luke and Leia are the two people Rey calls "master" i.e. teacher. Luke is specifically the beginning and ending of Rey's training, and Leia is the middle. When reflecting on why Rey might choose the name "Skywalker" there is nothing arbitrary about recognition of the two people she called master and how they relate to her identity as a student.

    Rey's outlook on Luke is going to change greatly in retrospect. Her feelings of her "first master" will have changed dramatically from her first visit to Ach-To to her second visit to Ach-To. During her second visit to Ach-To (to self-imposed exile) she is going to have a significant understanding of her first master - they are walking the exact same path. So when you ask the question, "How would Rey, the person, truly think and feel" the reasonable reply to your question would be, "Rey at what point along her journey?"

    Because, again, you're wanting to pigeonhole everything Luke to the Luke/Rey relationship of TLJ Ach-To, disallowing for any type of character growth from either to inform your understanding of the final word of TROS and how it is relevant to Rey. You've chosen TLJ Ach-To as the hill on which you must make your final stand because to move in any direction is in your mind to move into checkmate. So you will there remain on that hill in self-imposed exile, always talking only about that hill, never moving beyond that hill, creating walls of text to defend that hill, always ever denying any reality beyond that hill. And I am now tired of the entertainment of watching you dance atop a hill.

    She would've immediately have heard that Luke had changed. She would've known her experience with him on Ach-To was not for nothing. She would've known that the two shared a dark hour of the soul, and that she was instrumental in saving him from that. He would of course do the same for her in TROS. Because the two walk the exact same path, he going ahead a little before her. No one else in the story has such a relationship as these two, being spirit siblings of a unique journey.

    Obviously you're going to "genuinely interpret" whatever can be interpreted according to a predetermined conclusion. But if we remove the subjective "defense" of interpretation and stick to the facts? Was or was not the foundation of Rey's training? Was or was not Luke the finalization of Rey's training? Did or did not Luke and Rey share one another's darkest hour? Did or did not Luke and Rey help one another through that darkest hour? Did or did not Luke and Rey walk the exact same path? Are or are not Luke and Rey spirit siblings?

    You removed the part where I actually taught you the fundamentals of car engines. The main point was that if I teach you practical things about the nature of a car engine while at the same time lecturing while UAW needs to end - I have still taught you the fundamentals of how an engine works. If someone asked, "Who was the first teacher you had concerning the workings of a car engine?" it would be, me. The fact that you removed the point of my statement in order to "fix" it shows me where you mentally stand here in relation to whether or not you're wanting an honest discussion.

    Yeah, answers about her parents. Her family. Her identity.

    But it ends up being a vital lesson for Luke to pass on afterward, true? It's Luke's final lesson to Rey, right? "I was wrong" completely recontextualizes TLJ Luke in Rey's TROS mind, right? Everything becomes different in hindsight?

    It would transform her view of Luke, though - right? That Luke she met was "dead" and he has been "reborn"? The ideology he was passing on to her was no longer believed by him? He showed up to save her? And the Resistance itself? The drunk old cowboy who won't return to gunsling even when the young girl pleads for it, suddenly shows up at the end, gunslinging like the old days, and taking down the outlaws after the girl and her family? That doesn't change things, even if only heard, "He came back! He came back in the end and saved us!"? You don't think this changes everything in the girl's mind? Because it does. If your mind can't comprehend that simple fact then all I can do is quote from such a cowboy, "I can do nothin for ya, son."

    Let me guess, as you interpret it, "No, it doesn't..."

    Combative nature? But, I thought there was nothing "begruding" about the scenario? Oh was it only "combative"?

    How did anything get "reframed as paternal"? It's student and master, and always has been. And what if we do call it "paternal"? How does that change anything? You're saying relationships must always be wholly positive to ever have any kind of connective worth? A teacher can't be CANTANKEROUS? There's no mentor in the history of storytelling in which a mentor is combative while also teaching? Because there is. It's pretty common, especially in eastern stories.

    And I'll point out that this is your reply to my question of, "How about Luke who came to Rey during her dark night of the soul in order to pass on that final keystone lesson, completing her training and allowing her to stand up and face her fear as a Jedi? How about Luke the final voice in the thousand generations strengthening Rey to RISE."

    So you're "(non)reply" to my question is to blankly make a statement with no functional meaning, and I suppose then move on as though everything else I stated Luke as having done, has no ramifications on Rey since, you can make a statement which has no meaning? This is how I can know that you have no intention in having an honest dialogue with me. All that you're caring about is "winning" no matter the cost in intellectual absurdity or dishonesty.

    Though, I just realized that in ROTS, a Palpatine urges a Skywalker to "rise" as a Sith and in TROS a Skywalker urges a Palpatine to "rise" as a Jedi. So, turns out this "discussion" gave me some insight of my own. Nice.

    Oh, okay. You mean the Luke that told her not to go to the enemy? But he's guilty of her going even though he warned her against it. Huh. Yeah, you've got no irrational bias causing extreme intellectual dishonesty in an attempt to - create a smokescreen? Try to save face? Damage control?

    And, at this point? Complete loss of interest. Conversation isn't on the way to the hospice, it's in the grave and I'm shoveling dirt onto it. I'll put a little bell on a string so you can ring it. Peace out Seacrest. Or, whatever the kids say these days.
     
    #191 iostream, Jan 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  12. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    Rey went to the dark pit beneath Ach-To looking to, in the words of Magneto, "ask questions to which she already knew the answers"; her disappointment in finding Luke to be nothing like she'd imagined were a factor in her taking that journey, but only as a symptomatic consequence of a larger issue predicated upon and stemming from her own insecurities.
     
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  13. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    Talk about the Anakin 2.0 that someone wanted! :):cool::p:D

    I 100% agree with you here.
    JJ actually used the same trick twice: Rey taking up the Skywalker name in order to honor the man who she had little to no positive interactions with is the exact same thing that he did when naming Han and Leia's son Ben. Ben is the nickname of Obi-Wan Kenobi, a man who mentored, saved, guided, and eventually sacrificed himself for the young Skywalker. Luke naming his son Ben made sense. Leia never met Ben, nor did she meet Obi-Wan Kenobi. She could have maybe named a pet after him, or maybe a second or third son, but her firstborn? That's a stretch. Even Anakin Solo worked better in Legends because (IIRC) it was a sign that Leia was able to forgive Vader and accept the good in him at the end. But Ben Solo is a stretch we allow because it's a nice callback to Legends and it's the first movie in the new trilogy and we're just so happy for Star Wars and familiar things. But then JJ goes back to the same watering spot, expecting the same results, and we get Rey Skywalker...
     
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  14. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    I think Luke had something to do with naming Ben. Ben Kenobi was the reason they all met after all. But yeah, I kinda agree- it can be seen as a strech. But I don't have a problem with it.
     
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  15. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend

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    Ben better never touches topics like Sand. Or saying something like "Look Grandpa, I found a way to save the one I love from death."
    Although I'm not against Ben surviving. I didn't actually see him dying as punishment for his actions in the movie.
     
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  16. Deukaliwn

    Deukaliwn Guest

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    Spot on. If you check The Rise Of Kylo Ren issue #2, you will see that this enrages Ben.

    upload_2020-1-24_20-22-23.png
     
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  17. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    Neither do I overall, because it was the "first act" of the story, so to speak. If one is going to do any coincidences, this is the best place to get away with them.* It's when JJ does the same thing again with "Rey Skywalker" - and by this I mean using a name that means more to the audience than it does to the characters when it should be the opposite IMO - that I get a little annoyed.
     
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  18. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Hard agree. Tattooine, Rey Skywalker...it's all designed to mean more to us than the characters in the story
     
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  19. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Jedi Commander

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    Some Thoughts on Ben Solo’s Name.

    Firstly, lots of people are named after other people their parents or they themselves never met. I’d be shocked if any of you do not know of anyone fitting that description in real life. I can think of numerous people I’ve met during my life who were named after people their parents never met. Some were named after fictional characters, some after real people.

    But anyway, the choice of ‘Ben’ for Han and Leia’s son’s name is replete with meaning to be read into it, much of it very interesting IMHO.

    Ben in Hebrew means ‘son of’. So in a sense, ‘Ben Solo’ is, poetically and paradoxically, a name that means ‘son of one who is alone’. It’s interesting to me because so much of Ben/Kylo’s story concerns a) his relationship as a son to his mother and father, and b) his feeling of being alone.

    A major theme of TRoS is the “we’re not alone”... “we had each other”... - the importance of family, friends, comrades. Even though his father chose to keep a name that means one who is alone (assigned by an Imperial soldier), Han had come to realise that everything Ben Kenobi said about the the Force, the Jedi was true - “all of it”. And that can mean we all end up becoming part of the Force, or it can be as simple as needing each other in life.

    Linguistically, Ben as a name is a good choice because as a word, or the start of a word, ben- , it often mean something good or positive - think of words like beneficial, benefactor or benevolent. So his name is a hopeful one.

    In terms of Leia, we know how concerned she is with the idea of hope. Let me put that in Rogue One quotation marks for us all... “Hope.” Famously in the original Star Wars, latterly A New Hope, she sends her message to Obi-Wan... “help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you’re my only hope”. To me it is entirely appropriate that she would name her son after the man she appealed to as her only hope, and who came through for her, her bother, and all who were rebelling against the Empire. What more could she want for her son than for him to be the ‘son of...’ whose name means good, who is named after the man who was her last hope then, and beautifully ends up as her last hope even until the last moments she clings onto life... and in a curious way like his namesake, finally lives up to the hope placed in him, even if it seemed he’d gone missing for many years...

    Ben as a reference to ‘A New Hope’ therefore recalls at least two meanings of the title - his uncle Luke, a new hope for the galaxy, for the Jedi, and Obi-Wan/Ben Kenobi, Leia’s “only hope” in a desperate moment for everyone.

    Also note Ben Kenobi was yet another example in Star Wars of a character with two names, two identities. In Ben Kenobi’s case, he was Ben the hermit-like crazy old man, and he was Obi-Wan, the Jedi Master. This is a trait shared by many people connected to Ben Solo - his Princess/General mother, Leia. His father Han Solo/Han (we still don’t know his original surname!). His grandmother Padmé Amidala who had a whole plotline in Episode One about handmaidens pretending to be her and she one of them. And of course his grandfather Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. Then there’s also Snoke who is not what he seems and Palpatine/Sidious. His life ends holding Rey ‘Palpatine’ who will go on to name herself Rey Skywalker. So being named after someone who themselves had two names is putting him in very good company, and is pretty much the rule rather than the exception for those closest to him.

    In Scottish, Ben can refer to a high mountain peak or “the inner room of a house with two rooms”. These two definitions describe beautiful connections to the character’s journey, whether by design or luck, as Ben is of course one of the two that make up the dyad in the Force with Rey, together a peak or culmination of destiny for the Jedi, one way or another. And as his ‘inner room’ being Ben, as opposed to Kylo Ren, it speaks to the hope that he is, at his heart, truly the good and hopeful Ben, not the hate and anger-fuelled Kylo Ren.

    While I’m discussing all this, in terms of his villainous alter-ego’s name, Kylo is of course a short mash up of ‘sKYwalker and soLO’. Ren could be seen as short for Rene, the French name, meaning ‘rebirth’. So in a sense his choice of name is ‘Skywalker/Solo Rebirth’. It’s interesting to me that he claims he wants to kill the past, yet his name can’t break with it. Even to the point that Ren rhymes with Ben!

    Naturally, some of this is interpretative and me making connections which may or may not be intended, but I strongly believe the audience or reader of art can make their own meaning, and it can be just as valid as that which is intended, so yeah, for me, the naming of Ben Solo is brilliant.

    “What's in there?” / “Only what you take with you”. MTFBWY. :)
     
    #199 Porco Azzurro, Jan 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
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  20. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I understand that frustration, but I think what slightly rubs me wrong about that scene isn't quite that it's for the audience, but that it's just... so predictable.

    Like, if you'd asked me four years ago gun to my head what I thought the last shot of Episode IX was going to be, I'd have ventured that it would be Rey with the Twin Suns at the moisture farm- and I'd hardly have been alone in that guess.

    And "Rey Skywalker" was, at least in my online circles, kind of the prevailing theory already.

    I don't terribly mind that she didn't take Organa (don't get me wrong, it would've been great, but I can see how the Skywalker name has an appeal to her as well) but it just came across as an attempt at some sort of big twist or cathartic moment, where it was otherwise just kinda flat. Like, I didn't hate it, but it just felt like the feeling I was supposed to get from the scene was a lot more intense than what I actually felt, as if JJ is standing in the room watching your reaction and you're letting him down with your level of enthusiasm.
     
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