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SPOILER The Ending: Beautiful, but problematic

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by NinjaRen, Jan 5, 2020.

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Did you like the ending on Tatooine

  1. Yes

    58 vote(s)
    68.2%
  2. No

    16 vote(s)
    18.8%
  3. I would have preferred... (please post down below)

    11 vote(s)
    12.9%
  1. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    I agree with you. 'Rey Skywalker' is different kind of animal and it annoys me too!

    Exactly. Tatooine, the name Skywalker and everything else in that scene is conctructed to appeal more to the audience than to the actual character or story. Yes, it's not reprehnsible to please or audience, but I usually prefer storytelling who acutally works in the context of the story. While the ending might be nostalic and beautiful, it just makes no sense for the character of Rey.
    I wonder where Colin Trevorrow would have ended 'Duel Of The Fates'.

    Also this. Ending on Tatooine with the twin suns was the most predictable thing ever.

    JJ likes to appeal to our nostalgia. It was great with TFA, but for the final... not so much. At least for me.
     
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  2. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    Nicely put!
     
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  3. Deukaliwn

    Deukaliwn Guest

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    From a strictly pragmatical approach, this a simple solution to the problem at hand.

    On the one hand, the Skywalkers had to go. What can you do. Bottom line is that this universe is huge, and we only got a snapshot of it, during which the Skywalker family was really significant, but let's move on.

    On the other hand, if you want to continue making Star Wars movies, and place them somewhere after (and near) TROS you need the Skywalker "brand", unless you place the next installment far into the future. The latter is hard; better to make movies about a past period, than go 50 years into the future.

    So, you need the name, but you don't need the family. Well, kill the family, and somehow keep the name.

    To pull this off, you need to attach to the name a far larger meaning, and have someone to take up the first "Skywalker" mantle. Obviously, it can't be some bartender from Naboo, but a student of this new way.

    Rey is the first student of the "Skywalker" way, i.e. a female Peter, where by "Skywalker" we have new approach to the light side of the Force, something surely different than what the traditional "Jedi" term meant. All in all, we will probably get the "Skywalker Jedi" or the "Jedi following the teaching of the Skywalker", with Rey being the first of that order (after the founders Luker and Leia).

    This is for me what the ending is all about. The founders (and not Ben, because he is not needed) give their blessing to the first member of this new way of approaching the light side. She puts everything to rest, buries the tools that caused so much trouble when the old ways were in place, and picks up the mantle (name).

    It seems logical.
     
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  4. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    That's what I would have LOVED in all honesty, but I just didn't see it. I saw them wanting to end the line of Skywalkers, as you said, but not giving up the brand naming - also as you said. So in an attempt to tie in the theme of "found family" with the Skywalker name, JJ made Rey take up the mantle. So Skywalker isn't a path or a dogma, it's Rey's new last name. It's her found family. I saw nothing that said to me that "this is the Skywalker way of doing this" versus "this is the Jedi way."

    Again, Skywalker Jedi or some combination where it was clear that Skywalker was a PATH/MINDSET/ORDER of Jedi would have been the ideal ending, because then Luke and Anakin's legacy as Jedi is honored, while Rey could take a more personal last name for herself (Organa/Solo if she feels like she's been adopted and/or married into that family; Palpatine if they want to go with the theme of legacy is what you do with what's given to you). But I don't think JJ and Terio were looking to do that.


    Also by female Peter, do you mean Peter Parker, like MCU Spider-Man: Far From Home? Because that Peter's journey was slightly different than Rey's (it reminds me more of a heroic version of Kylo's journey in TFA and TLJ).
     
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  5. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    All this would have also worked without killing every Skywalker. IMO ending the Skywalker saga by killing all members of this family is lazy and even tragical. You can find a real end in redemption. In salvation. In meaning of life. But not in death.

    And this is the reason why I think JJ should have went all-out => making Rey a Skywalker by marriage.
     
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  6. Deukaliwn

    Deukaliwn Guest

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    1. You are right, because we have nothing (explicitly) being said. In general my mindset is such, that I try to find a "positive interpretation" and bring it to the table, though in this case there is more to lean on. Both theoretical and practical.

    Luke pointed out to Rey that the way the Jedi handled things, turned out to be catastrophic. Especially in TLJ, he was explicit about it. He was also clear, that the way he handled Ben, turned out to a fiasco. So, if I had to consider possible outcomes of this student (Rey), then I think it would fair to assume that she has integrated all the teachings Luke offered her. This offers the foundations for later development.

    On the practical aspect of it, if Disney et al hadn't thought of a way to milk the name, then they wouldn't have given it to her. The naming came with a price (see online videos and reactions mocking them), and these peps, don't do anything just because... Thus, and if we use as a premise that Disney is about $$$, then I guess they have something in mind, and the surname will be used. Else why bother.

    This is turn creates a simple question. What can it be ? How do they plan to milk the surname ?

    If it's a one liner, it will be nah, and haters will explode even more on the web. If on the other hand, they follow the "new dogma" path, then many will be pleased. You (and me) for example:). It won't take much. 5 minutes of Rey in the New Jedi Temple, teaching about the blend of Jedi (from the sacred texts) with the Skywalkers.

    So if you put these two together, you get something which while is not a proof, would probably hold at a board meeting, and this where I think it boils down to. The foundation is laid (hence it can be based on cannon), they please the old timers by providing a meaning to all that the Skywalkers went through (in fact the Skywalker family will have changed the Jedi dogma), and it allows them to move forward with no string attached.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ---- + 1 Argument : Don't like it but it would sell in a "new age board meeting | Mods remove if needed ---
    A new strong female Master teaching that the old way of the male patriarchy running things is wrong and over
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    All in all, it's wishful thinking that provides Disney what they crave for the most, so it seems probable.

    2. By Peter I was referencing Saint Peter, trying to draw an analogy with the first leader of the Church. I should have clarified it, and in retrospect it can sound disrespectful, to a believer. My apologies, for that, it was inappropriate.
     
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  7. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    Ah, to be so hopeful again...you, fellow fan, are a breath of fresh air in my cynical lungs...

    To me the answer was in that last declaration. It's Disney and Lucasfilm declaring that Rey is the new Skywalker and face of the Jedi. That she's the one to carry on the family name and all that entails. That she's the new poster image for Skywalker. I think Disney wanted a concrete image of who is Skywalker instead of the theme that "we all can be," when it comes to visual image at least. Now, they could change that in the next medium, but I don't think they will. If there's one thing Maul taught Lucasfilm, it's that questions asked on the big screen should be answered on the big screen, for better or worse.

    They'll milk the name by milking the character. It's worked in the past, why wouldn't it work now?

    Ha! No offense or disrespect at all! I just usually hear it in a different context (either as Saint Peter, Simon Peter, or Peter the Apostle), and when it's not in that context my mind automatically reverts to superheroes lol!

    And to be clear I do think Rey will change how the Jedi function, using what Luke and Leia have taught her, as well as the ancient texts. I just don't think that will create a path that is known as the Skywalkers at this point.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 27, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 27, 2020 ---
    ARE YOU SAYING THAT FINN IS TRULY LUKE'S SON AND THE TWO SHOULD HAVE BEEN MARRIED??? I AGREE. :p:p;):)
     
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  8. Deukaliwn

    Deukaliwn Guest

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    Indeed, but this is harder to think of, and digest than going full blown teenage girl diary.

    - Teenage girl tries to save assho@## boyfriend who doesn't seem to realize what he is doing (while she does, because she knows better)
    - Assho@## boyfriend ain't fundamentally rotten (because we can't have teenage girl falling in love with a real dic$#$), but rather he was "seduced" into becoming and behaving like one.
    - Cretin boyfriend isn't your classic neighbor. He is one of a kind, special, extremely powerful and true loyalty. Don't forget that. A real prince is needed for a true princess.
    - Ungrateful prince boyfriend sees the true light at the end, and is willing to give up everything (even his life) to save teenage diary writer.

    This is something easier to relate to.

    Note: Just throwing ideas on the table. I'am always willing to play around with any premise. Discard if they don't offer anything.
     
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  9. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    This is definitely easier to relate to, I agree. But I prefer a more in-depth and meanigful storytelling. Some can argue that this isn't how Star Wars works, but for the final of a 42 years story, they could have been more bold and actually challenge the audience.

    Killing Ben was the easiest way to redeem him. People who didn't want him redeemed, get to see him killed and don't have to forgive him for his deeds. So, they are still satisfied. But this is just lazy IMO. JJ and Terrio should have challenged us. "Hey, Kylo is good now and lives. He's seeking for forgiveness. Can you give it to him?"
     
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  10. Deukaliwn

    Deukaliwn Guest

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    Don't know what to say, and I think I have reached the conclusion that I will never be able to answer :), apart from some mediocre (at best) answer.

    The "teenage list" I compiled, was made up from bits I collected from my students. I'am a ~40 year male, so Ben being perceived as a prince was out of my way of thinking. Then I talked to my wife and she said : teenage girls thing about ideal love while you think about football; what's better. Well...go Liverpool what can I say. Don't know.

    My wife loves Star Wars, and as a mother, she almost cracks, when Leia vanishes. She breaks. I can see, how this affects her, in a much different way it does me. I'am touched, but not in the same way.

    What I'am trying to say, is that perhaps, there is more to it, than meets the eye.

    Sometimes, even the slightest detail, can mean so much to some many. Perhaps, something like a "prince dying for his love" or a simple notion that is not challenging, may seem to some of us as an easy way out, but then again, how can I say, that what I want is more important than what a 15 year old girl wants, or what in general another fan wants ? Is there an answer to this question ?

    The only (mediocre) solution I have found, and to offer something (I think), is longevity, which I think is aligned with what you are suggesting. In-depth and meaningful storytelling.

    I saw Darth Vader as the big bad wolf, when I was young, and also I thought that he saved Luke as my dad would save me. Then I had kids, and when I saw the shaft scene, I thought I would throw Palpatine over in a millisecond to save my daughter. It just translated, naturally to me. The same bloody scene at the end, has offered to me so many different emotions throughout the years, and this is why I keep paying, to be honest.

    Does the ST have such qualities ?

    Well, the catch is, that this is to be determined not by us :). Our kids, will answer this question, I guess.
     
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  11. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    @Deukaliwn, first of all- thanks for participating in this conversation with reason, humbleness and sincerity. You are a poster with whom you can disuss. + Welcome to the Cantina.

    Definitely. Movies are emotions and every single viewer reacts differently to the same scene.

    I like the the idea of a prince (which Kylo actually is => son of a princess) dying for his loved one. But my problem is that JJ wanted to please everyone and thus we neither got one thing nor the other.

    I think so, yes. For example there is the theme of love in the ST which kids will see differently than adults. But IMO it's much more ambiguous in this trilogy and to be honest, I think that's cowardly.
     
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  12. Deukaliwn

    Deukaliwn Guest

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    Thx for the warm welcome.

    Indeed, but these are the times. Every concept is scrutinized, every word is fully analyzed, so $$$ keep rolling from views, and subscriptions. You would think that the web would set us free, yet here we are. More entangled than ever.

    I'am in no way a JJ or Disney supporter, but I think we should pose questions, fitting to the age.

    Could they risk ? How far ? Stretch what ? There are millions dollars at stake. I mean, Lucas (God withing Fandom), tried to expand the story at OP, at he got trialed, judged, and convicted. To put in another way.

    Is currently, artistic freedom allowed by the fans or did fans kill it ?

    Now a movie is made, and instantly, 1000 videos, about similarities, copies, plot holes are made. Where is the artists breathing space ?

    I know, peps will crucify me over this, but the main problem with me, isn't the developers being cowards. The fans are cowards, and the some of them are making money. This is the awful truth.

    Back in the day, a dude told us something, completely outrageous, for today's standards. Episode 4. Just suck it. The rest, is to come. By today's standards, this is a huge plothole. He would have been crucified.

    An empire ? A masked dude ? Force ? People dying, and vanishing into thin air ? What ? A moon killing planets ? ah ?

    Back then, we gave the artist the room to breath. Now, we crucify them over monetized videos. So, they reacted, and what we all get, is a generic cheese cake, and that's the way the cookie crumbles.
     
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  13. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens Jedi General

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    Is it ironic that I am reminded of the Bolsheviks?


    And welcome to the Cantina!
     
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  14. Snazel

    Snazel Rebel Official

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    TROS is beautiful, let's make that clear! The effects, visuals in this film are a marvel. Star Wars from a technical, visual and music perspective, still really shines, stronger than any other franchise (even Marvel can't hang with Star Wars special FX).

    Let me ask those who love TROS? For you, what was the most emotionally resonant moment in the film? Was it the last scene? Was it the climax? The reaction of Chewbacca upon learning of Leia's passing?

    My biggest beef with TROS is the film seems incapable of real empathy. The whole film struggles with emotion, particularly grief, which is washes away almost instantly. JJ seems to despise grief or sadness in his films and pushes past such emotion quickly. Yet others here seem to really connect to this film emotionally. So I'm curious, what moments in TROS resonated with its biggest fans?

    And for those of us who disliked the film, do others feel the same way that I do? That "moments" in this film were rarely earned, didn't really resonant emotionally and I felt very little joy or grief watching this film. It was more like a roller coaster ride than a cinematic experience. Am I the only one who feels this way?
     
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  15. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    You are not alone. This movie is so fast paced and doesn't let scenes and its characters take a breath.

    JJ knows how to establish sympathy for characters, but he struggles with developing them and bringing them to an end. This is the reason why he is the best choice to start something.
    He gives an adventurous start and shows us the potential for the story to come. This is were he really shines.

    So, I like JJ and his films. He usually makes some exciting fun rides. For example I really appreciate the editorial structure/pacing of TFA => Fast, slow, fast, slow. But for 'The Rise Of Skywalker' he went for "fast, fast, fast" and this makes the movie rushed or how you put it- moments feel unearned.
     
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  16. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    For me, the biggest issue with most of the emotional beats of TROS is that a lot of them had been done better in other movies.

    Which one of these scenes provides a more emotional punch when finding out your heritage:





    In fact that first clip plays out almost eerily similar to this from Into Darkness:



    It's virtually weightless in the films but means more to the observer of the films.
     
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  17. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    This pretty much describes the ending or even the whole movie for me. It's more about the audience than the actual characters.
     
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  18. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    The Chewie medal scene.
    Pairing Finn, Poe and Rey up for the first act and some of the 2nd.
    The Rey Skywalker ending.
    Being on Tatooine to end.
    Pulling a ship from the sky.
    Luke lifting his X-Wing.

    Yeah. A lot of it felt for the fans not the story
     
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  19. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    I would add to this list:

    - Finn being (retrospectively) FS
    - Luke catching the lightsaber and saying he was wrong
    - the whole usage of Leia's and Palpatine's character
     
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  20. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    The most emotionally resonant moment was the end between Rey and Ben. Followed shortly by Chewie falling down in grief. Several others got me as well. Ben talking to the memory of his father, Rey saving Ben and telling him that she wanted to take his hand. Rey reaching out to the Jedi for help. Leia reaching out to Ben and finally how R2 reacts when Leia dies.

    In fact no Star Wars film touched me emotionally as much as TROS did. Beyond TROS I think the most emotional moment to me in Star Wars films previously was Luke telling Leia the truth about who they are in ROTJ.
     
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