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SPOILER The Ending: Beautiful, but problematic

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by NinjaRen, Jan 5, 2020.

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Did you like the ending on Tatooine

  1. Yes

    58 vote(s)
    68.2%
  2. No

    16 vote(s)
    18.8%
  3. I would have preferred... (please post down below)

    11 vote(s)
    12.9%
  1. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel General

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    You're definitely not the only one. The only moment that came close to emotionally resonating with me was when Chewbacca was thought to be dead. Leia's death should have resonated except Leia was so absent from these movies that I just didn't feel anything. Also, her death was just weird. She seemed to die for no reason at all. We've seen people with the force communicate over great distances in the movies; why did it kill an otherwise healthy woman? When she died I was more curious about what just happened than sad. Luke died because projecting a vision of himself so far, for so long took so much out of him that his body couldn't handle it. Ok, wow. I get that. Leia says one word and it kills her?

    I like Rey and Ben a lot but nothing about their story was particularly emotional for me. Everything happened so fast that there was no time to react or give anyone time to say emotional things or make it sting. The whole movie reminded me of Tim Curry explaining things at the end of Clue:

     
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  2. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    You're not alone! *Cue either all girl team up or a fleet of ships*

    And some of those aren't bad, specifically the team up in the beginning and Chewie's medal. It's innocent fanservice. I'll go so far as to say Luke lifting the X-Wing was probably one of the most cathartic scenes in Star Wars - it played off a nice Chekhov's Gun from TLJ, it was useful to the plot at that very moment, and it redeemed Luke's lack of faith in the Force and in the Jedi. Masterful.

    But the rest don't meet those criteria for me, and the sheer amount of those that don't makes the fanservice tiring...

    As a person who's been repping that since Day 1, it was very vindicating thankyouverymuch! But yeah your point still stands...

    And all of those moments are great!

    They also happen to be the slow moments in a breakneck paced movie; moments for characters rather than plot. THAT'S why they hit so hard. We know what Chewie's lost and we sympathize for his despair. We've seen over and over how conflicted Kylo was about killing his father, and now we see how the love never left. We see Rey's shock and at Leia's death, and how saving Ben was a moment of grace, not for Ben, but for the woman Rey loved as her own mother and mentor. And I wanted more of that. Or more importantly, I wanted to end on a note like those, where emotions have authentic meaning and feeling for everyone in the theater and outside of it instead of simply for the audience.
     
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  3. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    How many more did you want in what is essence an action movie? I think it is safe to say that TROS had more of these moments then any Star Wars movie ever made.
     
  4. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    The counterpoint I'd raise is this: Inherently no, it's not bad. But it's bad because the story felt inorganically designed to force them together to go macguffin hunting. It felt forced and like it was delaying actual story so they could assuage the complaints of "the big three were never together!" even though they were never written to be a big three because Poe was supposed to be DOA in ep7.

    As for the X-Wing, eh. It felt like a "see! Luke can lift blast too!!! moment more than a big payoff." We saw him defeat the Emperor and Darth Vader. We saw him face down the entire first order. I don't feel that payoff personally.

    Chewie getting the medal is a meme. It's like stopping to talk about Luke and Leia kissing being brother and sister. It's a gag.
     
    #224 RoyleRancor, Jan 27, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
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  5. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    As many as the emotions they try to make me feel. If the movie wants me to be shocked by a death, it either need to have it be a shocking character (like Akbar) or a real death (also like Akbar). If it wants me to be shocked by a family related plot twist, they better have that plot twist mean something for the character. Why should Rey care about a dictator born a generation ago that had no immediate effect on her family? Why should he be deemed worthy of a moment outside of "you're the enemy of the Jedi, which I am" when her parents prove that you can come from evil and not be it? Why should she care about her bloodline when it becomes clear Luke and Leia already knew about it (to which the answer is, she doesn't! Another plot point wrapped up without any clear meaning!)
    If the movie wants me to cheer at the 11th hour army, they need to make me feel like that army will come too late and that people may die, or that the characters will fight even knowing the army may never come.
    If the movie wants me to be intimated by a villain, they need to introduce someone who is intimidating or at least has qualities to make cover for the lack of intimidation. Snoke covered it up with power and mystery. Kylo covered it with his humanity and a clear message to break from the past. Palpatine...Palpatine had already won and lost decades ago (in-universe and outside of it) by this time. There was nothing for me to fear from him there. Or if I'm not worried about the villain, the movie could at least make me worry about the cost of the victory.
    The movie wants me to feel cathartic about the ending. Why? Because it's on Tatooine? We can do better than that. TLJ did better than that with Luke's ending (double sunset, same music, no Tatooine), the Resistance ending (reminiscent of ROTJ, hopeful for the future), and the actual ending (Luke becomes a legend again, the Jedi will rise).

    Fair point about Luke and the X-Wing. As for the medal, it's a gag and that's fine by me. Maybe it wouldn't be a problem if was played for a gag in-universe? Like, Maz gives Chewie the medal, and Chewie throws it over his shoulder, implying he never actually wanted one? Or maybe if was a medal ceremony instead of at the end of a battle...
    Either way, I totally get your point on these, even if we draw the line in slightly different areas.
     
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  6. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Right? Rey's reaction should have been "So? Your mom likes me more than you so suck an egg emo boy!"
     
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  7. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    This is exactly the problem. More doesn't mean better. It has too many of those moments, thus they feel rushed and emotionally bland. I would have preferred much less of those moments, but with some time to breathe.

    It's not even special to me because Rey did force lift much more at the ending of TLJ. Furthermore Luke already showed what he's capable of by the help of force projection.

    The funny thing- Chewie already got his medal in the novel 'Bloodline'.
     
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  8. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Are you really replying to my comment? Certainly doesnt seem so. Was simply asked what moments emotionally connected with me and others. I said. I am not getting in this spin of negativity.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 28, 2020 ---
    I accept your opinion and that is exactly what it is. I 100% disagree with it. The moments connected with me and many others. Feel sad for you that they didnt.
     
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  9. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    You don't have to feel sad for me because this doesn't make the story better. Some people are just harder to please than others. If everyone would like the same stuff, then there would be no Cantina (or any forum).
     
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  10. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    I did, I confirmed that the moments you listed as emotional are indeed such. But then I went on to explain why they were emotional in my point of view, and how if the movie wanted to do that with more scenes already in it (Chewie's "death", Lando returning with the fleet, Rey Skywalker*), then they should have taken it with the same approach as the moments that DID work. I also replied to your - if I'm reading the tone right - slightly sarcastic and/or sardornic reply to my affirmation in which you say,
    Again, it's awesome that you love this movie, and I'm glad you got emotional resonance out of those scenes and the movie overall. I will always cheer on the fact that you and others like the movie.


    *Rey Skywalker is a moment that I've seen work for haters of the movie and not work for people who loved the other 99% of it; and the issues raised with it have nothing to do with the emotionality or speed of the scene...so...yeah...that one's a non-factor for the most part.
     
  11. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    OK. My opinion of Rey Skywalker is to fold. Rey knows who she is now and that should be celebrated. I would feel the same no matter what the name was. Using the name Skywalker is also the biggest "Oh my god people are bothered by that" moment I can ever remember. To me nothing wrong with it and nothing that anyone should get bent out of shape over.
     
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  12. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    After seeing Colin Trevorrow's intended ending of EPIX, I'm even more convinced TROS has an unsatisfying ending.

    IMG_20200203_093904.jpg
    Just compare this concept art with the real ending shot. In Colin's ending we see a new Jedi school with a lot of Padawans. We see how Rey - now a full grown Jedi - approaches young pupils. We even see Finn. It's a look at a bright future, while TROS is just a re-telling of a beloved scene.

    I think Luke would rather have a new generation of Jedi than Rey taking his name.
     
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  13. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    Well there is no reason why she can't do that. It's not like Tatooine was a permanent spot for her. I get there is a difference between seeing and implying.
     
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  14. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Implying is bad story telling. In movie making there is an important rule: show, don't tell. TROS pretty much only implies she will create an new Jedi Order. In DOTF we actually see it.
     
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  15. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    ANH would like a word with you. At the time, the concept of ANH's backstory is based on serialized storytelling. 'You just didn't see it'.
     
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  16. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    A backstory has nothing to do with implying. A backstory is just a set up and you only set up as much as you need to make the story work.
     
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  17. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    That's not what I mean. I'm saying that Lucas was assuming that story was already told, but we didn't see it. Thus, I don't see the difference. Also, I see no reason why you're not allowed for the fandom to speculate a little bit. "Oh nope. She is staying on Tatooine. She is never going to leave the system. She'll die there."
     
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  18. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    But is this really a great ending for a 42 years old saga?

    The ending in TROS has no set up. We don't know whether she will train new Jedi or where her home will be (what you're mentioning). It's actually even more implied that she lies the Jedi to a rest by burying the lightsabers.

    It just ends with a lone girl in a desert watching the rise of a new day. Not very uplifting in my opinion.
     
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  19. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Force Attuned

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    I would argue TRoS did show what was needed for this story. You’re talking about it (only) implying the ending of a different film altogether. Which is fine, and actually I think it could have been a good ending to have Rey setting up a new Jedi school, but it’s very easy thing to say ‘this hypothetical ending would have been better’ because no-one can find any fault in an imagined, perfect ending, whereas the ending we have in reality can obviously (and evidently is being!) picked apart in every minor detail :)

    I love how the actual ending is more open, full of all possibility and hope, an overarching theme of the whole saga. A more defined vision of ‘this is what Rey and Finn are going to be doing now...’ could still have left us with a hopeful feeling (they could have stuck a sunrise in that for example!), but it would still have been much more boxed-in and limited in terms of what the ending of the film, the trilogy and the saga was saying - not that I’m saying that would have been bad, it could have been just as great as I think the ending we have is, but again, we’re comparing reality to an imagined ending based only on an unfinished draft... it’s not a fair fight, whichever view you take on it, I think.

    As well as ending back where we started in the context of all that has gone on in between, which is a powerful structural and mythological idea, I think the saga ends telling us “nothing’s impossible”. Which is a message I really love.

    I completely disagree with everything you just said, but I’m not going to crack open the Luke quote from TLJ... ;):D

    Yes, it is a great ending! For me anyway. We end up with a Skywalker returning to the planet we started on with a Skywalker in 1977 and 1999! It's the Hero’s Journey across three generations!

    I don’t read it as it's implied she is ending the Jedi - she faces Palpatine to ensure that doesn’t happen, and has constructed her own lightsaber, which we see her light up. And calls herself Skywalker!!

    She finally chooses her family name, sees her masters smiling at her, she smiles, sees the double-sun-rise, and the dawn light hitting her face... that isn’t uplifting for you? Really? I very much disagree. *shrug*

    But, I know, ... opinions... ! MTFBWY. :)
     
    #239 Porco Azzurro, Feb 3, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
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  20. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

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    I spent the final two years of high school taking writing classes and/or being involved with writing things in some capacity, and so I can tell you that this notion is unequivocally false.

    I also understand enough about visual storytelling to feel confident in saying that it's false when applied there too.

    Sometimes what you don't see or hear is more effective and affecting than what you do.

    Having historical context for a given story point in either a written or visual work does usually increase an audience's ability to connect with and understand said story point, but it is not a prerequisite for the effectiveness or viability of said story point.

    We also don't have to always be shown the details of a story point in order for it to work or be effective.
     
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