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SPOILER The Ending: Beautiful, but problematic

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by NinjaRen, Jan 5, 2020.

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Did you like the ending on Tatooine

  1. Yes

    61 vote(s)
    68.5%
  2. No

    16 vote(s)
    18.0%
  3. I would have preferred... (please post down below)

    12 vote(s)
    13.5%
  1. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    That's only a half-truth. Ben was manipulated from the very beginning. We learned this in the Aftermath series and Bloodline. (not in the movies)

    TROS confirmed that Palpatine died in ROTJ though.
    "First you'll die." - Kylo Ren
    "I died before." - Palpatine

    True. But what else?

    Which is kinda getting retconned in the current canon. There are two versions of that now. But neither of them were in the movies, which is my point.
     
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  2. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend

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    With all the transferring yourself to another host, "I died before" can mean something else though. Like: "I died through the hands of Palpatine and now I am him"
     
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  3. Anubis78

    Anubis78 Cantina's Mad-Hatter
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    there are not a lot of deep answers in this movie its more of the just take a guess and go with it type of movie. Like a Godzilla movie ok we bomb an island and only one lizard turn giant?? Why don't I have a giant parakeet?
    Snoke had the chance to be a great baddie but nope they cut him in half and gave us nothing on palp returning besides giving him a little some of the equipment from the Borg.
     
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  4. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Jedi Commander

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    “There were always rumours [mumble mumble] to cheat death”
     
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  5. Snazel

    Snazel Force Sensitive

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    Very unpopular opinion, but Rian should have delivered us Episode 9. For all its controversy, at least Episode 8 tried new rhythms, beats and methodologies.

    Colin's vision doesn't impress me much, it seems a bit banal and obvious. Then again, at least it wasn't a complete reductive rehash either. I think all of us nerds need to stuff JJ into one of his mystery boxes and keep him there for a decade or so. His formulas, tricks and reductionist ways have become so very, very tired.

    Unpopular opinion and bound to get all kinds of down votes out there, but I honestly think the boldest, best choice for Episode 9 would have been Rian Johnson.

    I'll say another thing many of you are going to dislike, if Episode 9 did anything for me, it made me appreciate Episode 8 even more. It's a vastly superior film to Episode 9 in my book. At least it tries new things and has guts. Something Mandalorian does too. Star Wars "by the numbers" is boring as stink and Episode 9 is very much a formula rather than a film.
     
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  6. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    I haven't dug into the 14 some-odd pages that deeply, but there does appear to be some heat going on (which I don't have any issues with) so before I begin, I want to be very clear to those reading along.

    As a fellow cinephile and student of film, I respect @NinjaRen.
    Ninja, you have more formal education than myself, but we both are students of film and are both quite versed in the medium and art.
    We absolutely have very opposite perspectives in what we favor in the craft, but I don't hold this as either of us being right or wrong - we just differ in what we favor.
    You are more what I would think would make for a good screenwriter/director, while I would be more suited for DP, cinematographer, or editor.
    If we worked together, I think we would argue a bit and disagree, but being aware of our differences, I think they are compatible differences.

    I say all of this, because I want everyone to be very clear that when I write the following, I am not at any point "gunning for you", or striking up any sort of position to show you as "wrong".
    Firstly, I don't really believe there is such a thing with art. There is to my mind what is "wrong" subjectively, but not objectively. Not unless we're talking purely technical elements (and even then, there is wiggle room).

    With that giant disclaimer out of the way....

    For the most part, I wasn't terribly surprised reading through your post because your interests through our varied conversations over time kind of lend toward a certain expectation of position, but this part surprised me a bit.

    Perhaps I'm not understanding your vantage point.
    I know you're big on character in the sort of 1970's character driven narrative way (or that's how I interpret your discussions... e.g. Taxi Driver, Godfather, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, etc...).

    So this paragraph threw me off balance a bit.
    Again, I'm not being coy - I'm earnestly asking, because I think I'm missing something of your perspective here...

    How is this perspective compatible with a character driven favor?
    To be more specific of why I'm asking that: When does Rey express a perspective that the Skywalker family has only brought pain to the galaxy?

    To me, from the character driven way of thinking, I could see Kylo thinking this because he has expressed nearly these kinds of ideas and squarely blames his uncle for quite a lot, but I can't recall when Rey ever showed any internal perspective of thinking of the Skywalkers this way.

    Kylo was about as close to that as she got, but even with him, she struggled between empathy and hate, and over the course of TLJ moved closer and closer towards empathetic more than hate.

    Does she seem to express this perspective to you at any point in any of the sequel trilogy films in a way that I'm not picking up on?

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #266 Jayson, Feb 11, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
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  7. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Uh oh. Is this a new precedent? :eek:
     
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  8. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Haha!
    Well...I just know that I'm rather strongly positioned in my opinions, and rather direct a lot, which I think at times can cause my admiration of other members to get lost in the shuffle, so I'm trying to make sure to put that out there more.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  9. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Heh, me too. I've often thought about adding a footer for good measure :D

    DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the Star Wars brand, Lucasfilm Ltd., The Disney Corporation, StarWarsNewsNet.com or its proprietors.
     
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  10. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    You should read all of it. There are some nice posts from both sides.

    And I respect you! I respect your knowledge and personal insights regarding the topic of film making and writing. Yes, we often disagree with each other (probably because we enjoy different aspects of storytelling), but sometimes you convince me of your POV. And most importantly- you're engaging in conversatons/disussions. That's great. I just wanted to mentioned that.

    Well, my studies mostly focused on the production side of film making. This means conception, directing etc. and also alot of theoretical knowledge about writing. There actually was a time in which I liked to create and write screenplays- TV pilots, short films and even a feature film.

    But as time flew by I noticed my real strength is post-production, mainly video and sound editing. I'm actually an editor in real life, you know. Editing is my passion and I would say I'm pretty good in it. At least that's what I'm always hearing.

    So, it's kinda funny to me that you say something like that, because I on the other hand see you more of a writer and visual guide guy.


    Yes, I prefer the character driven narrative. This is the reason why I think TFA is the best Star Wars movie of the Disney era.

    Well, because she heard the stories (mentioned in TFA and TLJ) and even witnessed them herself. In her POV the Skywalkers 'should' mean failure. Luke and Ben both failed her in TLJ.

    I think this shows what's my problem- I don't think Rey is a great character, while Kylo is. Don't get me wrong, I really like Rey in TFA. But her character didn't really evolve after that movie. Even worse- the little progress she made in TLJ was almost made redundant in TROS. At least IMO of course.
     
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  11. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    I will definitely make sure to do so! (good night-time on the couch reading!)

    Thanks, and ditto!

    What?! Slick! I'd love to see your work at some point - PM me if you want.
    My favorite "saved by the edit" is Romancing the Stone. That movie is pretty terrible, but the editing is really amazing for its time. There's lots of things in there that are now go-to moves.
    My favorite feature length film in terms of the edit, though, has got to be Scott Pilgrim. Machliss just knocked that one out of the park. I love watching that film for no other reason than just the edit. Favorite all time is Lucas' "Look at Life" short film. Considering that was all done old-school in college as his first film (dual tracked by hand as well!), and even if you don't consider those things...holy crap man! Most of what's in that 1 minute film in terms of editing are things that are now go-to moves that no one, not even Lucas really, employed for another 20 to 30 years or so. Even today, the closest to what's in that short film, in terms of big budget films, almost exclusively belongs to Edgar Write's (/Machliss) films. Last one I'll mention before I stop this side-track tangent (I could keep going for a while...I'm sure you could as well!) is Fist of Legend (Jet Li). There's nothing exotic about it. It's just a solidly tight drum and just so ahead of its time when it came out. The editing really sold the action and the narrative of that action so friggen well - it was just so lock-step and tight...like sentence structure to a Michael Crichton novel.

    Writing is a pretty big weak point for me. Story...that I can swing. Narration, not bad. Dialogue? Ooph. I never feel comfortable, even if I like what's coming out - it's still always off-balance feeling. Getting such to move coherently from one scene to the next? Paaaaaainful.
    I have such an easier time doing that if I "write" the entire thing just visually and skip dialogue outright.

    Interesting. A lot of char-nar folks I know favor TLJ, so that's an interesting twist.
    TFA is my favorite as well, but because of the visuals (I think that was my first post here, actually, iirc...a thread that just dove into the shot and blocking of the film).

    Alright, meat and potatoes time....

    But are we ever shown that as being her perspective?
    Which...I kind of lean towards "No", and that kind of leads right into the next bit...

    I kind of wondered this...
    Maybe the issue isn't that what she does doesn't match her character, so much as her character doesn't match your narrative sensibility.

    See...I kind of think you wouldn't have written that scene of Rey taking her name differently, so much as I kind of think you would have written a different Rey than the one in most of the films.

    The Rey we're shown is one who doesn't hold any grudges toward the Skywalkers and thinks of them almost as rock stars, including Han Solo.
    That was a big part of her arc; turning idols into people.

    I don't actually agree on the bit about the narrative growth with TLJ and TROS, but I think I'll save that for another time because that is really a lengthy conversation in itself. The super short and teaser version is that in TFA Rey wants to be defined by lineage, TLJ she learns to be self-defined instead of defined by lineage, and in TROS she puts the past two growths to the test and stares down the beast of evil lineage and is challenged to hold on to that self-definition she had formed.
    In a narrative sense, this follows the "Hero's Journey" formula almost identical to Luke's in form.

    Seeks Identity and meaning and finds a false one > false identity is torn down and new identity must be accepted > accepted identity is put to the test for resolution.
    ANH > ESB > ROTJ
    TFA > TLJ > TROS

    For Luke, that's:
    Wants to be a space hero like his Dad and accomplishes that > Finds out his Dad wasn't a space hero, he's the space villain who effectively killed his Aunt and Uncle and did kill his mentor > accepts his real identity and faces his trial of remaining true to the values of his resolved identity.

    Same basic pattern.
    The primary difference that I see is that with Luke...we actually don't witness his existential crises resolution. He suffers one at the end of ESB, and comes back in ROTJ resolved to his end, and is now ready to face the dragon and be tested in the pits of the abyss and return a fully transformed person.

    We don't get that middle murky bit of how Luke went from the crying mess at the end of ESB to the stone cold and somberly resolved Jedi in ROTJ's opening.

    With TLJ, we watch Rey go through her existential crises, and she resolves her crises at the end of TLJ on screen, and is now ready to face the dragon and be tested in the pits of the abyss and return a fully transformed person.

    That's the short version, anyway. It would take a thread unto itself to go into the details of that.


    ----
    But more to the point...I kind of wonder if you just have a disagreement of character arc as a whole for Rey, rather than it being the case that the scene in question is out of step for the character of Rey that we're shown.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #271 Jayson, Feb 11, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
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  12. Snazel

    Snazel Force Sensitive

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    Kylo Ren was (for me) the most interesting character in the ST. It's why I wasn't that thrilled to see him die (even if it made sense from a character arc perspective).

    Rey had so much potential after TFA, she was beautifully rendered in the first act of TFA, in fact the first act of the TFA is some of the best Star Wars out there (IMHO).

    Finn and Poe aren't even remotely fully realized characters. Finn's perspective seems to randomly change from film to film, Poe seems mostly like a spoiled brat who doesn't trust his own team. Considering the level of acting talent behind both characters, I am comfortable saying the writers really squandered both of them.

    Hux's arc was awful, he probably should have been killed in 8.
     
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  13. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    Agree with the post above.

    According to that logic they should have killed Poe too in Episode 8. And yes, I don't think that would have been a loss.
     
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  14. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend

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    Should I wait for a @Jayson & @NinjaRen Star Wars movie?
    Actually not only you would be interested in seeing a fellow cantina members work.
    That could be an interesting read. Watch out for that thread to pop up I will.
    Let's not forget that he was supposed to die in that TIE in TFA..

    Back on topic. I haven't decided yet if I like that ending, because I still have seen that movie once (not because I don't like it, just because of lack of time).
    But taking the name Skywalker wasn't an issue for me. It was actually assumed to happen by a lot of people right after TLJ.
    IMHO it even fits because Skywalker has already been her connection to the Jedi and the force in TFA. And three of that lineage (albeit only one by name) have been the stepping stones to become a Jedi. Further more the name of Skywalker became legend again with Luke facing the First Order alone with his "lasersword".
    Taking on the name of that legend and keep it alive is actually a reasonable marketing move of Rey.
    A while back I was practicing Wing Tsung/Ving Chung/.../ as teached by Leung Ting. So I was doing Leung Ting Wing Tsung I never met that guy, but in a way was carrying his name. he was even called Sifu (which can be translated as fatherly teacher), so in a way it's sort of a family relationship. Not a perfect valid comparison, but the best I have at hand.
     
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  15. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Kinda yes, kinda no. Haha! She thinks Luke is a legend-

    Rey ​
    (crying)​
    That old legend of Luke Skywalker, that you hate so much...
    I believed in it. I was wrong.
    Sure, it's a deleted scene, but it shows- she's disappointed.

    I would have left the Rey of TFA the same, maybe even the one of TLJ (just give her a little more of a character development though). But in TROS I would have completely reworked her character. The most interesting part about her character was her being a nobody. A nobody who becomes a somebody all by herself. That's pretty much the hero's journey.
    Rey Palpatine completely failed me in every possible way.

    I agree, but then TROS happenes. In this movie she has to go through the same steps of the hero's journey she already did the movies prior. It's redundant and a wast of time for me.

    I completly agree with you!

    Kylo Ren was the star of the ST. He should have been the main focus of this trilogy. It would have been something new and bold too IMO.

    Yes! Exactly.

    Exactly was @RockyRoadHux said, if one of those characters had died, then it wouldn't have been much of a loss.

    Kylo and Hux releationship in TFA (and a little bit in TLJ) was so interesting. I don't know why they didn't use it more. TLJ Hux was weak, yes, but there was a good set up for TROS.
    => Hux, who tries to the take the power from Kylo Ren. Unfortunately this wasn't used.
     
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  16. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash
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    Actually, Palpatine's line toward the beginning of TROS about having been every voice that Ben has ever heard in his head struck me as being exactly this. It didn't really register with me until the third time I saw TROS, but I think that this line was a big part of why Ben's eventual redemption worked for me despite the fact that I'd been adamantly opposed to the idea since the first time I saw TFA. The second he ran his own father through with his lightsaber, I was of the firm opinion that he was irredeemable, and that any resolution of his character that involved his turning away from the dark side and saving the day would end up feeling hollow and contrived.

    So I was really surprised at how okay I was with precisely this happening at the end of TROS. And that puzzled me until the last time I went to see the film and that line of Palpatine's truly landed for me. Whether it was subtext, head canon or what, to me that line conveyed one thing to me:

    Palpatine had been in that poor kid's head manipulating him, probably since he was a baby.

    Even without this being explicitly stated in the dialogue, that line of Palpatine's implied it strongly enough to change my view of Ben's redemption on my first viewing, even before that implication registered with me on a conscious level.

    I totally get your perspective on this.

    To me, her rejection of the Luke Skywalker legend that she grew up with doesn't necessarily equate with her rejecting Luke himself. Yes, she is disappointed by what he has allowed his fear and grief to turn him into, and by his refusal to return to the fight against the dark side. But she continues to believe in him (e.g., her statement to Snoke that he underestimates Luke) and to empathize with him (she not only senses his passing, but clearly feels his state of mind when he does.)

    IMHO, her rejecting the legend surrounding Luke was inevitable once she actually got to know him. And it is a key part of the examination of the concept of "legend" in all its facets that permeates TLJ. If you have ever met and spoken with a famous person that you have long admired, or even met a person whom you previously knew only online, you've probably experienced something like this. The version of that person you carried around in your mind always fades as you become acquainted with the actual person. And that can sometimes be disappointing when the person doesn't live up to your image of them.

    But then the reality of who that person truly is may not ultimately be as disappointing as the loss of your idealized image of them. And knowing them as they truly are is, after all, usually more rewarding than holding on to that idealized image.

    (Sorry, didn't mean to ramble on quite so long about this!) ;)
     
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  17. Veronica

    Veronica Rebelscum

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    Please elaborate. Because I honstly am baffled my your statements regarding the arcs of the characters. Thanks.
     
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  18. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Based on the behavior and cinematics surrounding her meeting Han, Leia, and Luke, the message we are given is that she knows all three and thinks of them as idols of some form or another.
    When she first meets Han and realizes who he is, she practically turns into a giddy fan girl.
    When Han dies, she bawls her eyes out and nearly vomits her soul through her mouth.
    When she meets Leia, it's after Han dies, and she walks up to her in the most somber and loving manner, and embraces in a hug with Leia.

    She walks up to Luke practically like he's a saint, then finds out he's not, has some frustration with that and does get mad at Luke over his refusal, but she does continue to listen to him and show continued respect for his wisdom - even if she disagrees on certain things.

    So, I don't think we're really given a Rey who sees these people as having any sort of fault for causing the galaxy pain.
    She could have been written that way...that's entirely possible to take that path and explore that kind of character, but that's not what was done.
    Instead, Rey is shown to pretty much either faun, love, or deeply respect all of the Skywalker troupe except for Kylo, whom she ultimately love-hates due to his duality in personality.

    I see this differently.
    TROS doesn't rework her character.

    As mentioned, TFA is her chasing after a false identity. TLJ is her establishing a self-identity. TROS is the test of her resolve to that self-identity.

    The end of TLJ, for Rey, is basically, "You are what you choose to value, not whom you come from".

    Only when she resolves her existential crises of identity in TLJ does she use the Force in a smooth and controlled manner for the first time.

    In TROS, this conviction which gives Rey a steady hand is put to the test. The child knight is fully trained, and ready to face her true demons.

    What is Rey's ultimate demon? Identity.
    Just like Luke.

    It's like the child knight. They now know how to use a sword and can stand on their own.
    This does not mean, however, that their conviction cannot falter; that they cannot find that they don't actually know how to stand on their own yet because they haven't met their self in battle - in the bowels of hell.

    That's where Rey is at the end of TLJ. Ready, but not tested.
    Jesus before the three temptations.

    Palpatine is her Lucifer, promising her greatness, and issuing doubt.

    She falters just like Luke, in fear of creating great darkness, and attempts to follow Luke's steps, but he stops her and lets her learn from his mistake.

    When she faces off against Palpatine, she eventually succeeds because she embraces her inherited identity (symbolized with "I am all Sith" being answered with "I am every Jedi") to stand on her resolve to be self-defined and reject being pre-defined....something she once longed for back in TFA, learned to cope without needing in TLJ, but only realized the importance and value of in TROS during her test.

    That she picked to be a "Skywalker" doesn't disown TLJ's narrative.

    That's only possible for her to do because of TLJ's narrative which taught her that what she chooses to value is what defines who she is.
    Having Rey claim "Skywalker" is a backwards way of showing what set of values Rey is choosing to value, and therefore be defined by.

    By "backwards", I mean "shorthand". Rather than the normal linear way where we walk around with dialogue/events, etc... which show a series of value choices.
    We don't need that. We're only looking for a cap on the top to finish in a nice and tidy symbolic recap of what values she has chosen to be defined by.

    So I don't see TROS as throwing the first two off balance.

    ...
    It's interesting.
    Your issue with TROS reminds me of an issue a portion of fans had when ESB came out.
    A number of viewers of ANH had gotten the message of anyone standing for justice and hope, and that a complete backwoods nobody could be somebody through patriotic choice for doing what's right and standing up for it.

    And then ESB came out and they got upset because now Luke was destined to the Force by a magically special lineage. This didn't go over well with those who saw ANH the way described in the previous paragraph.

    Similarly, there's another shared relationship.
    In ESB, everyone was told the truth about Luke's lineage, and many thought it was a lie until ROTJ confirmed it, and Obi-Wan (Ben) excused himself by saying his deceit was still a truth from a certain perspective.

    In TLJ, everyone was told a lie about Rey's lineage, and many thought it was the truth until TROS denied it, and Kylo (Ben) excused himself by saying his deceit was still a truth from a certain perspective.

    ;)

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  19. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    The ST, in my observation, attempted to have dual protagonists - each on separate journeys to a comparable end by their own individual means. That’s something new and bold IMO.
     
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  20. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Yep!

    They had the equivalent of Anakin (that is, Anakin from 2, 3, and Vader from OT) and Luke running simultaneously in one trilogy.
    It's psychotic.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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