1. Due to the increased amount of spam bots on the forum, we are strengthening our defenses. You may experience a CAPTCHA challenge from time to time.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

The Ending: Beautiful, but problematic

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by NinjaRen, Jan 5, 2020.

Tags:
?

Did you like the ending on Tatooine

  1. Yes

    66 vote(s)
    63.5%
  2. No

    23 vote(s)
    22.1%
  3. I would have preferred... (please post down below)

    15 vote(s)
    14.4%
  1. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Posts:
    2,219
    Likes Received:
    5,582
    Trophy Points:
    15,317
    Credits:
    5,602
    Ratings:
    +8,423 / 34 / -9
    "Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough...It's your father's lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi knight."

    "I see you have constructed a new lightsaber. Your skills are complete."

    "Ah, yes. A Jedi’s weapon. Much like your father's.”


    I’ll agree that the ST placed much more focus on the saber, but it’s not like it comes out of nowhere. The object is representative of Rey’s journey in the story. Not unlike Luke’s journey in the OT. "That lightsaber was Luke's. And his father's before him. And now, it calls to you." The saber, in both instances, isn’t just a weapon, it’s a symbol of legacy and inheritance. It’s about respecting and honoring those that came before, while carrying it forward toward something new. Which is exactly what JJ himself was doing with this new trilogy.

    Star Wars is the legacy of the mythical George Lucas. An entire generation of creators were inspired by the exploits of this ‘hero’ to the industry. Stepping in to carry his vision forward, to pay respect to it, while forging your own path - that’s an extraordinary burden. And that’s what he made the crux of his story to be. His leads are all, in their own individual ways, having to deal with the exact thing he was also dealing with. “Write what you know”, right?

    The Skywalker saber is positioned as a token, a totem, of that principle theme infused throughout the trilogy. Rey’s relationship to it is reflective of her relationship toward the greater burden of that inheritance. At the end, she ceremoniously lays it to rest as it’s done its job. The Skywalker blade has nurtured a new Skywalker. Her skills are now complete and, like Luke, she’s constructed one of her own.

    Maybe that’s not very practical, as others have pointed out, but TROS awkwardly isn’t particularly interested in the practical. That movie is littered with elements that are symbolic for the sake of symbolism rather than any in-world logic. Why does Kylo insist on rebuilding his mask? Why does Luke insist Rey have two lightsabers? Why does she then insist on burying them? Why does Palpatine insist on shooting himself in the face? Symbolism. Now, try not to think about it too hard.
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  2. smpreet

    smpreet Clone

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2021
    Posts:
    19
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    12
    Credits:
    126
    Ratings:
    +50 / 0 / -0
    @eeprom I don't disagree with your point that they were focused more on symbolism in the ST, but for me that is the problem with it.

    They needed to focus more on storytelling, that is what made the OT so good, it was solid storytelling. Focusing on the journey of the characters, what they learn, how they change.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  3. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,959
    Likes Received:
    5,997
    Trophy Points:
    15,567
    Credits:
    7,706
    Ratings:
    +8,728 / 35 / -13
    I don't think I can rightly convey how hard it is to do what Lucas did.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. smpreet

    smpreet Clone

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2021
    Posts:
    19
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    12
    Credits:
    126
    Ratings:
    +50 / 0 / -0
    It certainly is, so hard that Lucas himself has a lot of trouble replicating it in the PT, and needed help getting it right in the OT. But it can be done if you know what you are doing and focus on that.
     
  5. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Posts:
    2,219
    Likes Received:
    5,582
    Trophy Points:
    15,317
    Credits:
    5,602
    Ratings:
    +8,423 / 34 / -9
    I honestly don’t think the ST is all that inferior to the OT in the realm of storytelling - depending on how you define that anyway. Rey’s journey, although a little jumbled, tracks pretty well. What she wants, why she wants it, how she gets it, and how she’s shaped by it, all add up to me. The same with Kylo-Ben as her counterpoint.

    Those two characters were distinct and pretty well defined from the jump I feel. How they evolve, advance, and conclude with respect to each other and their circumstances all seemed organic and satisfying enough to me. If you strip everything else away and just focus on them and their dynamic, it works pretty well . . . in my opinion.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  6. smpreet

    smpreet Clone

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2021
    Posts:
    19
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    12
    Credits:
    126
    Ratings:
    +50 / 0 / -0
    I think that's the thing though, you can't "strip everything else away" IMO. Good storytelling isn't segmented, all the bits are there for the reason of the whole. Rey and Kylo's arc are pretty good over all, except that Rey central flaw isn't really defined very well in the first ST movie very well. But as they progress, we are given Luke in 8, who is essentially unrecognizable, and that is really loud, so much so that it totally distracts and takes away from everything. At least it did for me. So I don't buy that he would do that to Kylo in the flash back and it all kinda goes down hill from that point on for me. Not to mention Po and Fin but eh won't get into them now lol

    I'm not actually saying you couldn't get Luke to that point where he would do that, but they didn't show us that so it feels unbelievable and, at least for my part I'm disconnected from that point on.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Posts:
    5,793
    Likes Received:
    34,643
    Trophy Points:
    159,917
    Credits:
    25,704
    Ratings:
    +43,283 / 189 / -99
    Then your issue is with the PT not the ST.
    The time to show that for Luke was in the 90s and early 00s. Lucas chose to do the PT instead of a ST.

    Luke can't be the same as he was in ROTJ 30 years later.
    If you're griping about storytelling, having Luke be the same Luke as 30 years ago is bad storytelling.

    Imagine if you watched the PT. Then waited 20 years and got the OT.
    How would you feel about Obi-Wan and Yoda as seen in ANH and ESB
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. smpreet

    smpreet Clone

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2021
    Posts:
    19
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    12
    Credits:
    126
    Ratings:
    +50 / 0 / -0
    Not exactly, I have issues with the PT but they are separate. I have no problem with changing a character, but you have to give us the motivation as to what that change is. They were able to put in a flash back to a younger looking Luke in the ST, and his failure and attempting to kill Kylo, then they could have just as easily given us a flash back showing what caused Luke to become a person that as soon as he senses something bad about his nephew thinks he has to kill him. This is the same dude who forgave his dad who was Darth Vader after all. What happened to so dramatically change him? Now maybe they'll fix this in some comic or show or something after the fact, but that doesn't change that it was a mistake in the first place.

    Changing a character to be what you want them to be without motivation is bad story telling. I didn't say make him the same as he was 30 years earlier, I simply said you have to show/explain what caused that big a change.

    Regarding Obi Wan and Yoda, they actually do feel the same, older and wiser perhaps, but they feel like the same people. But I'd also say it was probably easier to pull that off in the PT/OT side of things. When making PT, OT was there to aim at, making ST, you have to figure out what you are aiming at. That is what I think they failed to do. Do you think Obi Wan, other then being older, is that much different from the end of PT to OT, or Yoda for that matter? To me they actually feel pretty similar, and therefore didn't feel disconnected. Again not saying PT is perfect, there are many issues, but those characters at least felt like they were the same people, at least IMO.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Posts:
    2,219
    Likes Received:
    5,582
    Trophy Points:
    15,317
    Credits:
    5,602
    Ratings:
    +8,423 / 34 / -9
    Really? I thought it was fairly explicit. By product of her upbringing, she lacks identity and struggles with self worth. She finds safety in the familiar and rejects opportunities to realize her potential out of fear. That flaw hangs around her neck through the story and is only truly surmounted at the end. I feel TFA definitely took its time to mindfully highlight that in separate moments.
    Often, in creative writing, you have to ask yourself which path would be the most accurate for the situation and which would be the most dramatic for the tale. A Luke, who has lost his faith due to an extraordinary lapse in character, maybe isn’t the truest representation of the figure, but it’s certainly more dramatic. It lends itself to way more opportunities and avenues to explore.

    RJ put Luke back into the Dagobah cave essentially. He brought his weapon with him again, expecting conflict and finding it. But this time he has to live with the consequences of his actions. Now Luke is fallen and has to redeem himself. He, in a way, has to be turned back the way his father did - by a youthful idealist who hasn’t lost hope yet. We can quibble over how well executed that ended up being, but isn’t that, in and of itself, a pretty juicy concept?
    Meh, Finn kind of cul-de-sacs there toward the end, sure. But then so do Han and Leia. After ESB, they’re mostly about incident and plot progression than actual character and story. Poe, I think, gets an interesting arc. Though the more I think about it, I have the notion the ST would be better off keeping him dead and repurposing that spotlight for Finn instead.
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  10. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Posts:
    5,793
    Likes Received:
    34,643
    Trophy Points:
    159,917
    Credits:
    25,704
    Ratings:
    +43,283 / 189 / -99
    Okay okay okay.
    Let's go over this one at a time.

    1. The issue isn't the PT itself but rather that they exist when they did not do the ST. That's on Lucas. Not anything to do with the ST. The ST was just made too late to include Mark, Carrie or Harrison as 30-40 year old versions of themselves.

    2. No one really wants to see 70 year old Harrison, Mark and Carrie try to do action. We all saw Crystal Skull. We should all be grateful Star Wars had more grace than that.

    3. The issue was clearly RJ thinking people would understand the Rashamon style storytelling with Luke/Ben. Luke tells one version where Ben is the pure aggressor. Kylo tells one version where Luke is a maniac ready to kill. And finally Luke reveals the truth. The issue is that everyone is stuck on Kylo's version for some reason. Because Luke never actually intends or attempts to kill Ben. He briefly considers it an option. A fleeting thought. They literally give you three flashbacks showing you what happened and explain in detail what happened....

    4. Luke wasn't there the same way Obi-Wan and Yoda were to see Anakin become Darth Vader. Notice how they had no hope in his redemption because they played integral parts in his fall to the dark side? He didn't see the aftermath of his father slaughtering women and children and other Jedi. He saw all his own mistakes leading to the direct downfall and deaths of billions. That's what changed him. This time is it was his fault. He screwed up. Not other people.

    5. They did. You just don't like it so you're distorting it and denying it's existence. You want a different story told. That's not the same as it not being there.

    6. Yoda. In the PT. Is the same as Yoda in ESB? Oh come the Blast on. Now you're just trying to not have to walk any of this back. Yoda in the PT is nothing like Yoda in ESB. Did I miss all the Yoda prat falls in the PT or something? Where he just bangs a droid with a stick to get food and a flashlight?
    The great General Kenobi a desert dwelling hermit?!? UNREALISTIC. See how daft this all sounds?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. smpreet

    smpreet Clone

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2021
    Posts:
    19
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    12
    Credits:
    126
    Ratings:
    +50 / 0 / -0
    For I didn't feel like they did a strong a job as they could have in TFA for that. Its like She hates where she is, for good reasons, it's a terrible place that she was abandoned, is given an opportunity, to leave and jumps at it, then later has doubts when she touches the lightsaber. Before that at least as my memory serves it doesn't really feel like she has any doubts about anything. I think that's where the feeling over her being a little too perfect come from, she actually isn't but it's just a bit jumbled, at least for me.

    It's not the fact that they changed him that I have issue with, you are telling a story you can do what you wish, but you have to justify those choices. RJ wanted Luke to be the person he made him in TLJ, cool np with that idea, but you have to then give us a reason as to why. Otherwise we are lost and feel like the character isn't true. It's why I think older fans recoiled from what they saw of him, there, [spoilers] and also rejoiced in what they saw at the end of the Mandalorian [/spoilers]


    I wouldn't disagree with Han and Leia in ROTJ, they are more plot devices for Luke at that point, but that isn't actually much or a problem they work in that roll for the last movie, and it feels like a natural place for them based on ESB. Po doesn't feel like the same person he was setup as in TFA, and maybe your right, killing him off might have been the better move so you could focus on Rey and FIn. In ESB, Luke goes off, but Leia and Han stick together so we aren't being pulled in multiple directions. TLJ they all split up so we end up with lots of threads to track which doesn't help the issue.

    Unrelated, I think I'm being dumb, how do I Like a post someone has made? Is it something that shows up later like after I've posted a bunch or been a member for a while?
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 3, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 3, 2021 ---
    I'll try and respond to each point.
    1. erm agreed for the most part, but that also makes me wonder why they couldn't have just moved on completely, but that might not be fair as hindsight is 2020.

    2. again same as point 1 don't really disagree, but I think Mandalorian showed a way around that. My attempt to block spoilers in the last post didn't work sorry. Is there a way of doing that?

    3. I don't have an issue with that type of storytelling, I liked the idea of showing there points of view, echoing what Obi Wan had said to Luke in the past. The problem for me at least is that it wasn't that clear. He was stood in his room holding a lit lightsaber... Ok he didn't have the angry evil look on his face, but still kid waking up with dude standing over him with a lit saber, it was actually an understandable reaction on Ben's part. But that's the issue, it was plot convenience, that's what RJ needed Luke to do so he did it, and we don't really see what could make Luke get to that point. I think if we had a little more to back up that what could drive him to that point, then I think you could have what is there.

    4. Sure, but he knows that he was second in command of the empire, who destroyed a whole planet and murder his friends and peers. So maybe he didn't see that stuff from PT but he saw plenty of really bad stuff in OT and still thought he could bring him back.

    5. Sorry I'm a little lost as to what we are referring to here lol. Luke's motivation?

    6. Yoda in the PT and Yoda in ESB, yes he does feel the same, not when he is pretending to be someone else when they first meet, but when he drops the façade and starts being himself yes. And Yes Obi Wan feels like an old man version of himself. The point isn't what they are doing, general to old hermit in the desert, he was and is a man on a mission. He stays there to watch over him and eventually teach him, as he promised to Yoda, well the watching over, not teaching bit I guess. I might not be doing a good job of explaining, it's more to do with how they feel as people, Ben feels like Ben you can feel the natural progression of who he is at the end of ROTS and when we see him again in ANH. I'd say the same is true for Yoda, once we know it's Yoda in ESB. Though I would grant Yoda is certainly messier, now we know who Yoda is when you start watching ESB, so it's coming across and goofy and weird, the context of that has changed because the PT exist, which does mess stuff up. But I stand by what I said Jedi master Yoda in ESB feel the same, and a relatively natural progression of master Yoda from PT for the most part.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Posts:
    5,793
    Likes Received:
    34,643
    Trophy Points:
    159,917
    Credits:
    25,704
    Ratings:
    +43,283 / 189 / -99
    1. Because people would have been 10x as outraged if the first Disney project didn't involve Luke Han and Leia. Especially with Carrie's unfortunate passing.

    2. when typing a post you do [spoiler and [/ spoiler but with the closing piece. And the technology used for Luke in the Mandalorian is in no way capable of sustaining multiple characters for an entire feature. Look how awkward Leia was in TROS. Or how Luke was hooded for the action. There is a reason it's use is so limited.

    3. What wasn't clear? He looked in Ben's mind and heard and saw screaming. He thought about it and didn't do it. I'm genuinely lost here. You are describing the scene that gives you what you want. He talks about the rising evil in him. Snoke talks about it. Kylo talks about it. In Luke's two versions of the story, Luke explains how Leia was worried about him and trusted Ben to him. The darkness was growing. He explains how it was already too much and he couldn't do anything about it. He explains how he saw the horror that Ben would unleash on the world to the ones he loved and everything he ever did...what else do you need other than the last 30 years of Luke's life played out? The whole thing is that Luke couldn't get over that one failing moment because he was LUKE SKYWALKER.

    4. But none of the stuff in the OT was his fault. He feels no attachment or responsibility for the events that created Darth Vader. He feels all the attachment and responsibility for creating Kylo Ren. It's like forgiving someone you love because they did something bad to someone else vs forgiving someone who does something directly to you. The latter is much more difficult.

    5. Yes. Luke's motivations are there and they are clear. You are essentially lobbying for a movie that doesn't exist and can't really exist right now in a live action form.

    6. I guess the part I'm struggling with is how you're able to make these jumps but not the one on Luke. Because the movies ask you to make much bigger leaps in faith with the consistencies from the PT to the OT.
     
  13. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Posts:
    2,219
    Likes Received:
    5,582
    Trophy Points:
    15,317
    Credits:
    5,602
    Ratings:
    +8,423 / 34 / -9
    REY: I know all about waiting...For my family. They'll be back. One day.
    ==================
    We get early on that she has a perceived obligation chaining her to that dreadful place and that squalid existence.

    REY: I'll drop you two at Ponemah Terminal.
    FINN: What about you?
    REY: I gotta get back to Jakku.
    ==================
    Then, after being freed from that vapid hellhole, her first inclination, even though it could likely get her killed, is to go right back.

    REY: You're offering me a job.
    HAN: I'm thinking about it. Well?
    REY: If you were, I'd be flattered. But I have to get home.
    HAN: Where, Jakku?
    REY: I've already been away too long.
    ==================
    Again, she’s offered a place to belong, with people that appreciate her, but her only concern is getting back to her tricked out AT-AT and pimping for more portions.

    REY: I have to get back to Jakku.
    MAZ: Han told me. Dear child. I see your eyes. You already know the truth. Whomever you're waiting for on Jakku...they're never coming back.
    ==================
    Rey is hit with the truth of the matter that there’s nothing there for her. She’s again being offered an astonishing opportunity. And again she’s turning it down so she an go back to nothing.

    KYLO: You're so lonely. So afraid to leave. At night, desperate to sleep. You imagine an ocean. I see it. I see the island.
    ==================
    In a moment of blatant character exposition, Kylo just tells us her psych profile. She’s afraid to leave Jakku. Her whole sense of self is wrapped up in this imaginary family that’s going to one day come back and end her loneliness. But it’s nothing but a self-sabotaging delusion.

    I don't know, man. I feel TFA really does commit a decent chunk of time reinforcing Rey’s hang ups and presenting it as a failing.
    In a word, hubris. It’s an expansion on Obi-Wan’s line from ROTJ. “I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.” Compare that to Luke’s line in TLJ, “In my hubris, I thought I could train him, I could pass on my strengths...Leia blamed Snoke, but it was me. I failed. Because I was Luke Skywalker. Jedi Master. A legend.”

    Basically, Luke bought into his own hype. He’d become arrogant and overconfident. He thought he was infallible and couldn’t imagine he’d ever fail as Ben’s teacher. Just like Obi-Wan with Anakin, Luke ignored the warning signs and allowed darkness to take root right under his nose. We’d all like to think that our hero Luke Skywalker would have learned from the past and not repeated the same mistakes. But the conceit of TLJ is that he didn’t. He isn’t a superhero. He’s just a man. An imperfect person who made an imperfect choice and it broke him.
    Yeah, I think there’s a minimum post count before you can give ratings.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,959
    Likes Received:
    5,997
    Trophy Points:
    15,567
    Credits:
    7,706
    Ratings:
    +8,728 / 35 / -13
    42 years old this May. I have exactly the opposite reaction to both of those that you list.

    I immediately understood Luke in ST with zero issues, and rolled my eyes at Luke in Mando.

    I hate super Luke.

    Oh, and Leia and Han in ROTJ are bad. It's actually a point of topic in the making of books. Lucas recognizes it - it was a sacrifice. One that caused Fisher to get into writing because she was so bothered with how her character COMPLETELY 180's from being a strong independent heroin helping to save the day to being a sexy damsel in distress who mostly just hangs around on Han's arm, needing hugs and kisses and getting her hair braided.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #374 Jayson, Jan 3, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2021
    • Like Like x 3
  15. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Posts:
    2,219
    Likes Received:
    5,582
    Trophy Points:
    15,317
    Credits:
    5,602
    Ratings:
    +8,423 / 34 / -9
    It’s also the same dude who went berserk and nearly killed that dad for saying something he didn’t like about his sister. So . . . he’s definitely got that gear.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  16. smpreet

    smpreet Clone

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2021
    Posts:
    19
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    12
    Credits:
    126
    Ratings:
    +50 / 0 / -0

    1. sure, maybe, I don't know if it would be that outraged, the PT weren't really outrageous for that reason.

    2. HA Nice thank you.
    test?
    lets see if I did that right lol.
    I agree with that tech not being cable of doing a whole feature, I think it could be done but not the way they did it in Mandalorian. However I'm not advocating for that. My point was simply you have done a short scene with him being younger, the same way they did in TROS for example. It would be short, similar in length to the scenes they have in TLJ.

    3. I think we might be either talking past or misunderstanding each other on this. Or maybe I just see it differently from you. That decision for me doesn't feel like something Luke Skywalker would do. And the exposition he delivers doesn't convince me of it either. I'm willing to accept that you and others may feel differently about that, but that just how I honestly feel.

    4. Sure, but he's his nephew and given that he feels it's his fault, to me that reads that you would try to do more. I would think he would love his nephew, the child of his twin sister and best friend. Feels like a leap to me to decide your option is kill this kid, even if it's brief. But again that's just how I feel and it totally possible that different things in the movie pop out as more or less important or clear.

    5. Ok Luke's motivations, thanks for confirming. So again I think we might be talking past or misunderstanding each other, or maybe we are just in different places. I'm no saying a whole new movie, I'm talking about a scene or 2 similar to what is already done in those movies, just showing different stuff. But you're point that it can't exist now since we have what we've got is true. I could see them trying to retcon some of that stuff going forward, with live action or animated shows, similar to what they did with clone wars and the PT. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

    6. I guess I don't see them as big jumps, they basically set them up to be exactly where they are in the next films. There are def logical issues over all from PT to OT, in terms of the thing that doesn't make sense to me is Yoda giving up at the end of ROTS after battling Palpatine, he didn't loose the fight, yeah he fell and got knocked out for a min, but once he came too he's just like ok I'm out. Basically because it's convenient for the plot, it was time for him to go so he went. I feel like that doesn't make sense at all. Obi Wan makes most sense to me I think, but the ending with the kids and their decisions as to what to do with them and going in to exile, that all flows to the OT. Also I guess it could also be because PT already had a bunch of contrived plot silliness so maybe I'm giving it more of a pass since there was a lot of other rough stuff in there, and I was hoping for more from ST. Who they are as characters at the end of PT and who they are when we meat them again feels like it works for me, but I'm not saying there is total logical consistency by any means. Sorry I may have been unclear on that, my bad.

    I'd also say PT and ST are probably unfair comparisons since PT has a bunch of additional context now due to stuff like Clone Wars and Rebels. So maybe that comes into better relief for me as more stuff is made.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 3, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 3, 2021 ---
    That's fair and actually good to hear, honestly been hearing a lot of the opposite, so good to hear another point of view. I'd agree that ROTJ Han and Leia could be def better, but they more or less fit to me, simply because they aren't the point of the movie at that point.

    But there are definite ways it could have been better. Han could have died in ROTJ Leia could have been more involved with Rebel leadership so you don't have to do the slave Leia silliness. Again they fall into the plot convenience column of things because, they are trying to focus on Luke but not do anything too terrible to them. Would def have been stronger if they did do more story relevant work with them. Honestly seems like Leia is only his sister so they can kill the love triangle off, then poke and Luke at the end.

    But yeah for me ST Luke just didn't read, I enjoyed Mando Luke, I know a number of fans my age and yours that feel the same. But I'm glad ST Luke worked for you, and sorry that Mando didn't. Either way for my money honestly hope that we are done with Luke at this point. I think going forward they are gonna be strong telling other stories in the Star Wars Universe rather then going back to old characters. Clearly they are always running the risk of making as many unhappy and they make happy. But looking at the list of stuff we have coming not sure that's what will happen.
     
  17. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2015
    Posts:
    2,039
    Likes Received:
    8,462
    Trophy Points:
    16,867
    Credits:
    9,472
    Ratings:
    +9,789 / 25 / -10
  18. smpreet

    smpreet Clone

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2021
    Posts:
    19
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    12
    Credits:
    126
    Ratings:
    +50 / 0 / -0
    Those are good points, but I think it's more to do with her inner flaw, the points you make are valid but I feel like they are more plot and back story based rather then a flaw she needs to overcome. However to be fair, it's been a while since I watched TFA so I may not be remembering details very well anymore. It is the one I like most of the ST, and only really faded for me with the following film releases, which isn't really fair to TFA. I plan on doing an in-depth break down of each one as I continue my video essay series. I know certain things came into shaper relief for me for ANH after I did a real break down, so it wouldn't surprise me if more stuff comes to light as I get into the nitty gritty.

    On the Luke and his hubris stuff, yeah it still just doesn't sell to me... perhaps it's also because it's told to us in exposition and not shown to us, again something I'll be digging into at some point, this series is going to take a while to do lol. Again for me it's not the choice of making Luke the way they did, it just to me didn't feel earned based on how stuff was setup. But if it works for you all good my friend, the fact that we come away with different reads is also and interesting thing I'm trying to dig into.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 3, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 3, 2021 ---
    thank you, great to be here!
     
    • Like Like x 3
  19. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2015
    Posts:
    1,959
    Likes Received:
    5,997
    Trophy Points:
    15,567
    Credits:
    7,706
    Ratings:
    +8,728 / 35 / -13
    What's there to love about it that has anything to do with the topic of good story writing?
    All he does is come in and kill a bunch of robots.

    That could have been anybody. There's nothing unique to Luke in any of it.

    All I can see to like about it has nothing to do with story and instead has to do with just wanting to see Luke swinging a lightsaber around.

    You can say that about any character in any movie that takes a back seat.

    All that really says is that you weren't bothered by it.

    As a big Han fan as a kid, I'll tell you ROTJ bothered me a lot. Han not being in the Falcon was a massive foul to me, especially since it was being flown by a guy who nearly got him killed and never said he was sorry for it, nor did Han ever act like Han about it at all - he acted like the most forgiving cause-gung-ho activist in the world and just threw Lando the keys like he didn't just call him untrustworthy and get proven right.

    And Lando coming to help get him doesn't make it square - in Han's character logic, that would only make it OK for Lando to start making up for what he did.

    And the entire opening was a massive confused mess. It's really only alright in the "I want to see Luke do an Errol Flynn" sort of thing.

    Story wise it's junk.



    By the same logic, however, I don't get your issues with the ST in this regard.

    The ST is always only about Rey and Kylo.
    Everything else is complete backseat noise like Han and Leia in ROTJ so it really shouldn't matter if it's a pure logical point.

    I doubt it is, though.

    I think the thing is that you didn't care in the OT because you didn't care about Han and Leia, and loved seeing heroic Luke because you love super Luke.
    And I'm betting you don't like the ST mostly because it didn't give you super Luke, but instead had ornery Luke, which caused you to stop getting distracted with theatrics and start paying attention to all of the things wrong because of that one primary disconnect.

    We don't tend to care about flaws in stories unless we disconnect with something in it that matters to us, and then once we do the vasoline on the lens stops working and all the rough edges become chasms.

    I'm not saying this is a bad thing.
    I'm just saying I think the issue here is probably far simpler and just that you don't like the ST Luke so you can't look past rough edges like you can for the OT.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
  20. smpreet

    smpreet Clone

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2021
    Posts:
    19
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    12
    Credits:
    126
    Ratings:
    +50 / 0 / -0
    Sure but again, that is earned in that story, it feels right for that moment, and something he grows from. For him to revert back the way he did is something that also should feel earned, and to me in TLJ it just doesn't feel earned. But that is something I want to dig into some more.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 3, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 3, 2021 ---

    You may be right. Its actually one of the reasons why I'm trying to do a breakdown of all the movies, to figure out really what makes them good/bad and why. I feel like a lot will come to light and change as I do this. It honestly already has and I've only done 1 on ANH. And it went from being oh it's cool cause it's the first but eh cheesy and naff, to actually be very good. And I have a feeling that ESB and especially ROTJ are going to go down in my estimation. The breakdowns I'm doing are based on screenplay storytelling, so mostly about characters and their arcs and less to do with plot and world.
    I can certainly admit I likely have heavy rose tinted glasses for OT. And you are correct that I don't like ST Luke which does break things for me, but it's certainly isn't the only flaw in those movies.

    Your points about Han in ROTJ are certainly fair, I think it doesn't hit for me as hard because like you said I'm more of a Luke fan and you are more of a Han fan. With that said, what is your feeling on Han's treatment in ST? I did like him for the most part in TFA myself. Not so sold on the vision of him in TROS, but i'd be lying if I said I didn't find it kinda heart warming.

    On Luke in Mandalorian, perhaps, it did just felt really good to see. I'll say this though, I wonder if I would care without that hallway scene from Rogue One. Once I saw that I wanted to see Luke do the same. I'll be honest I do have trouble sometimes breaking the fanboy side of me away from the objective writer side. From a purely storytelling side I can give a number of reasons why it was kinda cheesy and dumb, but the fanboy side of me will probably find excuses to justify it lol. I was literally in tears.

    Again that is one of the motivating factors for me to do proper breakdowns. Trying to get past the noise and see what really works, what really doesn't and why for each, get my biases out of the way. As I go through ESB i'm already starting to see problems.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 3, 2021 ---
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...

Share This Page