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The Ending: Beautiful, but problematic

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by NinjaRen, Jan 5, 2020.

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Did you like the ending on Tatooine

  1. Yes

    67 vote(s)
    63.8%
  2. No

    23 vote(s)
    21.9%
  3. I would have preferred... (please post down below)

    15 vote(s)
    14.3%
  1. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    I think the romance was well setup in TFA and TLJ especially. So I really wanted it confirmed in TROS and I love that part of it, yet I not once wanted the HEA. You can read all my posts in this thread about why. I just dont how you could setup a guy as a mass murderer from the very 1st scene we witness and have Ben and Rey go off into the sunset with the blessings of the galaxy. Vader didnt get it, Leia was punished for Vader and Ben would still need to suffer the consequences of his actions even if he wasnt 100% responsible.
     
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  2. Dark Toilet

    Dark Toilet Force Sensitive

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    Not to mention Tangled, Frozen, and others... even in the live action recreation of the old fairy tales, Disney is actively trying to change the tired "damsel in distress" trope to show its princesses as strong heroic women. A move that I applaud as a father of a little girl.

    In part based on these same ideals, I was strongly opposed to Reylo and any suggestion they should go off into the sunset together for a "HEA" (happily ever after)... I submit that TROS found a pretty nice balance on this point, although I previously would have preferred it not include the kiss. Having said that, without that kiss, I am not sure that Ben's little smile at the end would have adequately portrayed that he was finally "free from this pain" and happy. So with that context, I have decided I can live with it since it didn't really go any further.

    Notwithstanding John Boyega's cringeworthy "pipe-laying" comments, I still hope that that Rey and Finn end up together, as they really had fantastic chemistry and their whole journey started with each other and continued through out the Saga looking out for and trying to protect each other. I guess I just don't want Finn to be friend-zoned. :confused: :(
     
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  3. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    I'm just talking about the movies as its own nine-episode saga. Ben's sacrifice is definitely both a reprise of ROTJ and an inversion of ROTS, and I think that's the point. The saga is a poem or a song - it's built on motifs, reprisals and resolutions that rhyme yet add new depth to that which came before. It's about relationships between verses, between motifs. Music doesn't come from a string of notes, it comes from the relationship of the notes as a whole - the characters in the saga are in fact the individual notes on the proverbial staff of the narrative. There are certainly "other avenues" that could be taken, but those avenues have no relationship to the previous verse, motifs and notes.

    The problem with most criticisms that wander off into "other avenues" is that they don't do anything in relation to what came before. They're just, dangling threads that have no place in the weave of the tapestry. I suppose for some, that works better than a composition in which the notes share a relationship as a unified whole, but to me, that's just meaningless noise. It's ending the poem with a verse that has no rhyme, ending a symphony with a coda that has no relation to anything in the rest of the piece. If ending the poem with the same pattern of rhyme that precedes causes some to dislike the poem, I think their disappointment is worth maintaining the internal intergrity of the work.

    Well, Padme 2.0 was in need of being helped so Anakin 2.0 kept her from dying. Again, I realize it's not, Ben working a soup-kitchen but, it has a relationship to the previous music and closes the arc in a significant way. Soup-kitchen Ben? Not so much.

    I suppose complexity is in the mind of the perceiver.

    Well, no. Rey put herself into exile. Her training was over and had failed at that point. Then Luke shared his final lesson and Rey was back on top, just like Luke at the end of TLJ.

    I've posted already about this.

    I suppose it's true that the last word of a poem doesn't have to rhyme, and the coda of a symphony doesn't have to have any relationship to the previous music. The last thread of a tapestry can certainly be dangling.

    That's definitely a statement.

    Right.

    I'm not really seeing how you're arriving at "we saw that Vader truly wanted to become good again"? I saw him agree to turn Luke to the dark side. I saw him cut Luke's hand off. I saw him take Luke to Palpatine. I saw him protect Palpatine and try to kill Luke. I saw him threaten to turn Leia. I saw him get beat down by Luke. I saw him go to stand by Palpatine. Then I saw him suddenly grab Palpatine and throw him in a reactor shaft.

    Is it?

    It was, yes.

    I'm not sure it was vague, though. Was it not pretty clear when Kylo kept offering his hand since TLJ hut moment. Actually it seemed kind of apparent to me when he told Rey he wanted to teach her the ways of the force in TFA.

    Yeah now think about the fact you're using the name "Kylo" there and the fact that in TROS Rey said, "I did want to take your hand. Ben's hand." Kylo was hard to get rid of. But she got rid of him, didn't she?
     
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  4. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    But without new notes, you're simply repeating the same melody. Even the strongest choruses can have differing verses. That's what I'm saying could have happened. Change it up. Instead of "dying after returning to the light," like his grandfather, Ben proves he's different by living and being able to atone for some of the pain his family has caused.

    I mean, Isolation Ben would fit just as well as Rey Skywalker. Who is the first character we meet named Ben? A Jedi in hiding. Would it not be poetic to return to that secrecy? But instead of hiding what he is, this Ben would be hiding who he is (or not, because I don't think the galaxy actually knows much about Ben Solo or his ultimate fate). Ben stops trying to emulate his grandfather and becomes more like his namesake. He is back to being what the Jedi (should) have always strived to be, keepers of peace. I find that poetic.

    As for Anakin and Padme, well wasn't Anakin's goal to save Padme from dying why he went to the Dark Side? Or at least it was the tipping point. The whole point of that arc was for Anakin to let go of his attachments, to let go of his fear. If Ben had done the same for Rey, and promised to live on in her stead, finally learning the lesson his grandfather could not, that would be poetic. Tragic, but poetic.

    So there you go, two different ways the ending could have had the same poetry, without the romance. A different riff on a note done earlier, if you will.

    Fair point of view. I see it differently. Leia gave her the saber. Leia thought she earned the saber. Her training was complete. But she doubted, and hid herself away. Not out of failure, but out of fear. It was the pep talk in the low valley, not the final test before passing IMO.

    Sometimes the best are like that. Other times not. I was just saying that the moment would stay the same, but the words could change. Personally I'd rather have Skywalker as a new rank of Jedi (maybe appointed to those who master the art of becoming a Force Ghost, as they walk the sky with those still alive), leaving room for more "Skywalkers" outside of a family name.

    Part of that is where my frustration comes in, because I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But there's also the line "It's too late for me, son." That sounds like a man who regrets everything and has accepted his fate, but desperately hopes for another outcome.

    Not until TROS, which upended anything new that TLJ tried.

    I'm not really seeing how you're arriving at a believable romance between the two. You're saying "it was" romantic, but when was that romance built? I saw Kylo try to force his way into Rey's mind, using the same, painful technique he used on Poe earlier in the film. I saw Kylo acknowledge how Rey feels about his father, kill said father, and then throw that back in her face "there's no one left to save you."
    But you want to get to just Ben? Fine, I saw Ben do the exact same things Vader did to Luke. Ben Solo gave Rey over to Snoke to be tortured and ultimately killed. Ben Solo then stepped in to save her, only to reveal that it was for his own personal gain. Ben Solo then proceeded to verbally abuse Rey, throwing information she neither wanted nor needed to hear - which later turned out to be inaccurate - to prove a point that was categorically false and debunked in the last film (Rey isn't a nobody, she was somebody worth dying for to Finn and Chewie); he proceeded to destroy her self-worth, get her to turn her back on her friends, and corrupt her to the point he was. And then, at the end, Ben Solo threatened to kill all the Jedi in front of his old master, which at that point would include Rey.

    In the end we'll probably have to agree to disagree. What you see in Vader and how nonsensical his redemption is (which, to be fair, I totally understand and get) I see in Kylo Ren. I'm really glad you see the poetry in it, because all I see is the same riff on before, without the catharsis to be called truly poetic.


    I have a very fan-fiction-y explanation* of how that smile could work...maybe. What if the Solo's had another child? A daughter, that they had to give up for adoption? Kylo during a force-skype that finding this out haunted him, and he grew afraid that someday, the same decision could be made for him (a decision he sees as coming true when he's shipped off to train with Luke)? He mentions the timeframe, and Rey puts the pieces together that she's about the same age. They do the hand-touch, and then meet on Snoke's ship. Battle ensues, and Ben tells Rey that she isn't the sister.** His first action as Kylo Ren was to find his sister (and he either killed her or found her dead**). The rest of the story goes more or less as it does now, and then at the end of the story the two hug. To Ben, it's as if he has a new sister. To Rey, she finally has the family she wanted in Ben and Leia (and Luke).

    ...outside of that, the kiss would probably be one of the only ways. ...blergh...urgh...

    *...yeah it's straight up fan-fiction at this point. It started as a thought-experiment a couple years ago; an examination of ideas that I had and liked, to see how well they'd fit on Star Wars so I can examine what about them I liked and how to workshop that into my own stories in the future. It ended as "Use The Falchion Presents: Star Wars Episodes 7-9, exclusively appealing to one person!" It's still a work in progress, but I can say that the tools and ideas I've had making it haven't gone to waste.
    **In this I'd also retcon Ko Connix to be Leia's daughter. They both know it, but neither can say it because Ko was happily adopted and Leia honors that distance. Besides, it'd be fun having mother and daughter play mother and daughter.
     
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  5. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    The verses are different. It did happen. Anakin turning to the dark side to save Padme but causing her death is inverted into Anakin 2.0 turning from the dark side to save Padme 2.0 and causing her to live. It has a relationship to the former motif through inverting it producing a different form and adding depth to the former through that narrative connection. It has a secondary relationship with the reprise of ROTJ in Anakin giving his life to save life.

    Ben working a soup-kitchen doesn't do anything in relation to that. It's an entirely different motif than anything preceding it. You're completing the pattern "2,4,6,8..." with "25" when "10" is the correct answer in relationship to the motif that preceded it.

    Ben is reprising the Anakin motif, not the Kenobi. Yes his name is Ben, but that is not the motif. He's Anakin 2.0. His motif should follow the motif of Anakin, yet being "changed up" to create a different verse, while still rhyming. Which is what happened.

    The PT advice wasn't sound and not what Anakin "needed to learn" it was the opposite. The PT Jedi failed Anakin. The PT is showing the Jedi in a state of decline in which Order 66 becomes a neccesity in order to purge the proverbial dross and begin again, which culminates in the resolution of Rey, the first Jedi of the new Jedi Order (who also happens to be grandchild of Palpatine by blood, working in a mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship with the grandchild of Skywalker - thus the symbiotic motif of TPM comes back around to become a major motif in the final episode; allowing that motif in TPM to now have added depth in relationship to the Skywalker saga, connecting the beginning and the ending in with that major motif). It is specifically because of not following that advice that Luke was able to redeem his father - by not letting go of that attachment, and using that love to save life. It's exactly because of their attachment that Rey and Ben are able to overcome their trial and defeat the dark side.

    Anakin's goal was to save Padme from dying, and Ben "finished what his grandfather started" by doing that in the inversion of the motif. Yes, you could do "soup-kitchen Ben" - and lose a lot of narrative connection for... honestly, I'm not sure what for. Because this guy on the internet would've rather had soup-kitchen Ben?

    Without the romance? I must be missing where you're taking out the romance but if that's what you're wanting to do then, I can't see your ideas making any sense or carrying any weight in relation to the saga as a whole. You realize that love is the impetus driving the entire thing, right?

    That's clear.

    Such as?

    You're going to need an entire structural rewrite for any of this to work. You're basically wanting to change the motifs of Beethoven's Fifth and suggest that it's still Beethoven's Fifth. But it ain't. I like Beethoven's Fifth. If you don't, that's cool. But all of this "I just want it to not be it" doesn't make contextual sense. You're basically wanting to write your own story to say something you want to say (I'm not really sure what that is) - but this is their story. Don't like it? Cool. But to suggest that they should've written their story to say what you want their story to say is, it doesn't make sense. It makes as much sense as saying, "I wish jazz was rock n roll" instead of just listening to rock n roll and leaving jazz alone.

    Okay, and Kylo says "It's too late" as well. So since all we need is a line of dialogue, I guess the two have the same "weight" now that we've established the same piece of dialogue used by both.

    Well, that's certainly another statement.

    Well, a ton of people also saw it hence the whole "Reylo" thing. If you didn't get it, cool. But I'd propose that the writers apparently did well enough to get the point across to a ton of people. So it becomes an issue of, where do we draw the line of exposition? Are we having to now pander to ever single person in the audience, driving the point home like a sledgehammer just in case there's some people that aren't following the subtext? Personally, I'd rather not go that route. If people get it, they get it; if not, they don't.

    Just to be clear, I don't see Vader's redemption as nonsensical in the slightest. I said I saw a guy not acting like he was going to turn or wanting to turn. Until suddenly he acted a different way. You know what they say about action speaking louder than words? It's the act of self-sacrifice to save what is loved that tells me the redemption is genuine. Both Vader and Kylo are extremely isolated behind their masks. I'm not expecting to see sweeping emotions coming from them. I don't need them to fall to their knees and start weeping while proclaiming their feelings. What I do need to see is their action.
     
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  6. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I apologize if this comes off as at all ‘prickly’, but I don’t really see what any of this has to do with the point I was making.

    Rey came to Luke with two expectations: 1. A place to belong - "Whoever you're waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back. But, there's someone who still could." "Luke." "The belonging you seek is not behind you, it is ahead." 2. A source of understanding - "Something inside me has always been there, but now it's awake, and I'm afraid. I don't know what it is or what to do with it, and I need help."

    Yes, Luke extends a degree of understanding, but specifically NOT in regard to what she was after - “I will teach you the ways of the Jedi and why they need to end.” He’s not truly teaching her for her own benefit - what she should DO with that power. He’s trying to convince her of his own faulty conclusions and teach her what NOT to do with that power. That is, of itself, a rejection. Make sense?
    Luke certainly walked away from the path of the Jedi. That was his whole through-line in TLJ - coming back to it at the end. He sacrificed his life to save the Resistance and, by extension, the Galaxy. Leia, who also walked away from that same path, came back to it at the end when she sacrificed her life to save her son and, by extension, the Galaxy. Not better or worse. Equal.
    I’m not saying it’s her lowest point EVER. I’m saying it was her lowest point up to that moment. Luke was gone, Ben was gone, the Resistance was all but gone, her lightsaber was basically gone. Her countenance is clearly one of someone defeated and it’s Leia who extends that glimmer of hope to her. That’s not terribly ambiguous. It’s right there. When Rey needed somebody the absolute most (at THAT time), Leia was there and Luke wasn’t.

    She then spends the next year in her council. I don’t want to make this a numbers game, but Rey spent a couple days with Luke being ‘mansplained’ to and then spent a year with Leia being supported and encouraged. Logically, which one would be more pivotal to her overall development and identity? Honestly think about that. Not with regard to the entire saga as a whole, but with the specificity of Rey’s personal journey - what she individually experienced and how that would influence her.
    You don’t strike me as being a particularly unobservant person. So I find it rather unlikely you didn’t notice the special attention that was paid to Rey offering Luke the lightsaber again before she left in “hubris”. It’s also equally unlikely to me that you didn’t grasp what that gesture was intended to convey to the audience. In extending that object to Luke, Rey is again pleading with him to be the figure she’d first believed him to be. To be the hero, to be the shepherd, to be the mentor. “The galaxy may need a legend. I need someone to show me my place in all this.” When he refuses the hero’s blade, he’s refusing everything that goes along with it. He’s rejecting Rey’s virtuous aspirations and he’s rejecting Rey herself.

    And that’s where things are left between them. Luke rejecting her and what she’d come there in pursuit of: belonging and understanding. Who though steps into that role? Who gives her that belonging? Who gives her that understanding? Who becomes that shepherd and mentor figure she was urgently searching for? It starts with an ‘L’, but it doesn’t end with an ‘uke’.
    And I one hundred percent agree with you. ‘Rey Skywalker’ is absolutely what this trilogy is building to. It makes all the narrative sense in the world. My reservations are entirely centered around the grounds of how it was presented in this movie specifically. It’s the apex of our protagonist’s journey, but strangely little screen time is paid to it. “Be with me” was seeded and paid off. “There are more of us” was seeded and paid off. That wonky “dyad” idea was seeded and paid off. ‘Force healing’ and what it represents was seeded and paid off.

    Like Chewie receiving Han’s medal, ‘Rey Skywalker’ is a payoff for something that wasn’t planted in this movie. So while I’m totally onboard with the solution, I didn’t see the film showing me the math. Yes, that’s what ‘X’ should equal, but how did YOU get there, movie? If I squint, I can see it. But if that’s where this was all headed, I feel the breadcrumbs should have been large enough to trip over or it rings fairly hollow. But that’s just me.
    This smacks to me as rationalized hand waving. The premise is quintessential to the thesis of both TFA and TLJ, but absent from TROS. I’d agree there’d be no need to echo that motif if it was ultimately irrelevant to this verse, but it’s not. It’s paramount to the crescendo. It’s at the core to the weight of that self-actualization reached. She’s choosing that name and choosing the responsibility that goes along with it. She’s off to make good on the promise that legacy made - to finish what they started (so to speak). Reestablishing and emphasizing the gravity of that mythos matters to that end. Omitting it, in my opinion, dampens the intended impact. It just falls limp.

    This though, is only how I feel about it now. I certainly like TFA much more today than I did in 2015. I like TLJ more today than I did in 2017. I expect this trend will continue. For now, in numerous respect, this conclusion left me wanting and what I've detailed above is just one of the reasons why.
     
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  7. Lylo Ren

    Lylo Ren Rebel General

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    The work was done in TLJ (for the romance part).

    Why is a great friendship a-ok, but a romance is a step too far?

    That's very curious. "I'm sorry, Ben, I'll be your BFF, but I MUST draw the line at romance because you're a murderer, after all".
     
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  8. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    The point was that Luke didn't reject training her. In regards to her training as a Jedi, Luke laid the foundation at the beginning and placed the keystone at the end. And Leia built the frame. When he laid the foundation he was definitely cantankerous, but then that's a typical form of classic mentor.

    Well, they're not actually equal in regards to the path that Luke and Rey shared. They were the two who had to go off on their own to find training, learn the ways, overcome themselves, and face down their darkest fears face-to-face with the fate of the galaxy hanging in the balance. Luke and Rey have a common life and walk a shared road that no one else knows but them. That's kinship of a profound kind.

    Leia's definitely important to Rey's identity, sure. You're preaching to the choir when it comes to Leia.

    Definitely important.

    He does initially reject her. But he lays the foundation afterward.

    Yep, Leia is definitely important.

    Well, the breadcrums are her screentime with Luke and Leia. The fact that your case (at least, for Leia) is so robust seems to indicate the breadcrumbs of identity are pretty large. Leia's the framing of the identity, now all you have to do is drop Luke in as the foundation and the keystone and, poof: Rey Skywalker. Begrudgingly founded by Luke, caringly framed by Leia, proudly keystoned by Luke. Rey finds belonging in the family of the Resistance (signified by what Leia stood for) and in the family of the Jedi (signified by what Luke stood for). What do the two have in common? Skywalker.

    I'm not really sure what more could be laid down. At a point it becomes, too much. I guess that's going to be different relative to the individual as to what is necessary in order to establish a guiding motif in the mind of the viewer. But like I mentioned in another post, where do we draw the line at hammering the point home? It could be that to establish the motif in your mind is to become too heavy-handed in mine. And what happens when it's just right in your mind, which is already heavy-handed in mine - and a third guy needs more? How hard do we hit with the sledgehammer?
     
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  9. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    And you’re totally intitled to that interpretation. What you see isn’t what I see and I’m also intitled to my own interpretation. I don’t see romance in those scenes. I see two lost and damaged people finding solace in the other person as the lone individual capable of truly understanding their plight.

    Like two addicts meeting in rehab. To put in popular phrasing: they ‘see’, and have been ‘seen’ by, one another. They could be a constructive pairing - advancing one another toward a positive, higher station. Or, considering the wildly chaotic and combative nature of their meeting, likely far more horribly deconstructive. That type of relationship, in my observation, is extraordinarily unhealthy.
    Because fraternal love and sensual love aren’t the same thing. The emotional attachment involved with respect to vulnerability and trust are on an entirely different level. Investing that grade of emotionality in someone who is clearly emotionally unstable is tremendously volatile. I’m not intending to be patronizing here, but do you really not understand the difference?
    Well . . . yeah. You can’t just stand at the edge of a cliff, staring at the water for a couple of minutes, have an imaginary chat with the dad you murdered, and instantly get over all the baggage that led you down the path of becoming a homicidal maniac. It’s just not that simple. It would be a long, arduous path toward mental equilibrium. Having someone there to be supportive and understanding would be a fantastic boon to that recovery, but complicating that rehabilitation with intimate affection would do more to harm than heal.

    A healthy relationship is a partnership where both parties are equally emotionally available to one another’s needs, wants, and desires. Rehabilitation, self-healing, requires you to be selfish: to focus on yourself, to put your needs above another’s, and get better for YOU. You simply can’t afford to be emotionally available for your partner - not in the way they deserve. It’s a recipe that fosters resentment, unfulfillment, and inadequacy. Simply put: it probably won’t end well.

    THAT’S the work that wasn’t done and couldn’t possibly have been done. And if you aren’t going to be responsible with the subject matter, then leave it out. That’s my take. I get it if this all sounds like gibberish and over-analyzing, but that's my genuine feeling on it.
     
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  10. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    There wasn't one correct answer. It was a pattern that could have been continued or not. It's like saying "every Friday I go to a specific restaurant and order the same dish." You're saying "Let's go the same restaurant and order a different dish," which is fine, but it's not very exciting. I'm saying "let's find a restaurant that has the same name and try it out." It might be the same, it might not, but the road is new yet familiar at the same time.

    Two personal examples: When my friends and I get together, we almost always go to the same ramen shop every time. This past time, I accidentally programmed a different Japanese restaurant with the same name that's in the same city. I ended up finding my way to the desired location, but now I'm curious about that other shop. What's it like? Can we meet there next time?

    Or in 2018, as I was looking forward to Brandon Sanderson's new YA book Skyward (he's a great author btw; if you like sci-fi and fantasy you should totally check him out. And Skyward's one of his best) I found out about this little comic also titled Skyward. So as a joke I decided to buy it. It turned out to be an amazing, phenomenal sci-fi comic that I'd recommend to everyone. (Like, seriously. I honestly think you might like it.) But I would have never discovered it had I stuck to simply the thing I was looking for.

    That's what I want. Not just something I know I'm going to get (Ben being redeemed), but a fresh take on the same thing (Ben living to atone, unlike his grandfather) that circles back to the beginning (Ben living as the Ben of old did).

    And I'm saying that he didn't NEED to follow the Anakin motif until the end. He could have switched to Kenobi's motif, and it still would have worked for the emotional effect. Or he could have combined the two. Anakin 2.0 gets to live, and DO SOMETHING, not just die after his one great act like Anakin 1.0. But his living style is reminiscent of his namesake. He's not Anakin 2.0 then, he goes beyond that.


    Love doesn't have to be romance. Luke didn't go into a frenzy against Vader because he wanted to romantically be involved with his sister. Vader didn't throw Palpatine down the ventilation shaft because he was ready to take Luke out to dinner. Han didn't walk on that super sketchy platform to Ben for romance. Star War's best themes of love are the non-romantic kind (and let's be real, Star Wars movies - as much as I love them- don't really do romance well: Han and Leia has aged terribly according to the girls I've watched ESB with; Anakin and Padme is RIPE with problems; we've seen and are currently discussing the problems with Rey and Ben; and Finn's arc with Rose...the less said about the vitriol behind that, the better). Ben and Rey could have had that great brother-sister family redemption going on.

    I did, and I still think that's the better path. But I can't change that, so I'm saying what I wanted. I'm not saying I don't understand the "Rey Skywalker" scene. I absolutely do. But pronouncing her last name to be Skywalker doesn't make as much sense to "me in the mindset of Rey" than it does for "me the audience goer." It's fan service mostly for the audience, because that name means something TO US. The twin suns is far more iconic, and had she chosen any other name, with the Binary Suns playing and those titular suns in the background, the effect could have been the same. Look at ROTS. The last words in the movie (and at the time, the last words of the entire series) are C-3PO commenting on a mind-wipe. Sure, C-3P0 has the first and last lines in the saga up to that point, but the real ending was after, on the Lars homestead looking at the binary suns. No words needed. So why not let Rey have her moment with the name that's just for her, and then let the fans have their moment with the Binary Suns?

    Or think of it like Batman and all of the Robins he's had. Sure, when Batman dies, they can take up the Batman name. This has even happened a few times. But the most iconic legacy for Batman isn't the one who took up his name, it's the one who didn't - Nightwing. Nightwing doesn't NEED to be Batman to carry on his legacy. He decided to forge his own with the training and skills imparted in him, but he's his own person. And that what makes him a great character. Has he taken on the Batman name? Absolutely. Would he be the best Batman? Probably not (that's usually a toss-up between Damian and Tim Drake, with my leaning towards the latter). But the point is that Nightwing is memorable because he doesn't need THE name to cement his own legacy.

    The same could be said for Rey. She didn't have to take the name that means the most to everyone else; she could have taken the name that means the most to her - and from all the relationships she's had with OT characters in the past three movies, Leia and Han were clearly the ones she was closest with. So why not take on their name? Or she could have taken the name Palpatine and turned it into something good. One of the themes of the ST is Legacy and what you do with it, right? Why not take your terrible, terrible legacy and turn it good?

    I felt that having a Jedi rank called Skywalker would be a nice legacy for the Skywalker family - as that is where their legacy truly lies. For kids outside of the movie, it was a way to say "I too can be a Skywalker!" Without having a convoluted bloodline or any of the drama. For people in-universe, it's a rallying cry, but now it's not limited to one family. For Rey, had she taken Organa, it becomes the best of both worlds. Organa by choice/adoption, Skywalker by rank, and it honors both of their legacies in the best way.


    The only too times I remember him saying "it's too late," are when he's talking to Luke about Luke's apology. I remember him saying "now you can't go back to Leia, just like I can't go back," but to me that felt far more like "now you're just want I wanted you to be. Just like me. You're corrupted," rather than "I'm too far down this path."
    He also had far more opportunities in the movies than Vader did, so there's that. The one time Vader had to redeem himself, he took it. For Kylo it took literally everyone - including him - in his family to finally, FINALLY get it.

    And a ton of people were disappointed in the Reylo thing. So what's better, a poorly done project or a project done at all? And the answer to that comes out to personal taste. As for subtext, it was intimacy, not romantic. @eeprom explains it the best it can be from this side of the discussion.
    People will nitpick everything, I understand that. There was nitpicking about whether or not Finn is force sensitive, despite Finn's clear use of it to know Rey died (before Kylo did) and the fact that he all but says it when arguing with Poe.


    A-FREAKEN-MEN.
     
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  11. Lylo Ren

    Lylo Ren Rebel General

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    Love, forgiveness, and understanding are what the world is missing greatly and the stem cause of many of its problems. The fact that there are people who refuse to see them or believe in them, even in fantasy tales, is deeply disturbing to me.

    These stories aren't episodes of Dateline where justice has to be dealt for the crimes committed nor are these the relationships of real life people and framing them that way is just ridiculous to me.

    If this were an episode of Intervention, you'd be spot on, but this is a space opera.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 17, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 17, 2020 ---
    I think not seeing what's right there is often a choice one makes because they don't like what they're seeing.
     
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  12. Josh

    Josh Rebel Official

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    btw the ending of TROS shares some similarities with THXs ending at least in the way it was shot.
     
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  13. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    “Cantankerous”? Oh, now you’re not even trying. It’s OK to cede the point, man. It won’t kill you. I mean . . . I don’t think it would. Maybe I shouldn’t presume.

    Luke had no interest in actually mentoring Rey. That wasn’t some Yoda-esque guise he was putting on. He wasn’t training her. He was indoctrinating her into his jaded and misguided sense of noninvolvement (his crispy uncle Owen would have been so proud). His lessons were intended to discourage her. To get her to see things the way he did. That was the aim, not to build a foundation, but to corrupt her optimism.

    Like his father, Luke had lost faith. Like his father, he tried to turn a young idealist to his side (it’s like poetry:rolleyes:). All Luke illustrated to Rey, before being taken in by Leia, was who she didn’t want to be. That’s better than nothing I guess.
    I’m not trying to turn this into a Luke versus Leia debate. Luke was undeniably paramount to Rey’s journey and (finally) came through for her when she really needed him most. But if you’re looking for someone who truly epitomizes all the virtues that Rey was established to cherish, it’s hands down Leia. If TROS had spent the time recontextualizing the character as ‘Leia Skywalker’, then I’d be all in on that trolley.

    Maybe it’s just an artifact of the Bloodline novel I brought with me into the theater that colored my perspective. Knowing, within the confines of that narrative, that she didn’t consider herself a ‘Skywalker’ perhaps put extra demand in my mind that the movie wasn’t even aware of (or cared about). Any sort of acknowledgement at all of her embracing that name would have done wonders for me. Any sort of acknowledgement at all that Luke’s sacrifice had echoed throughout the galaxy would have done wonders for me. It’s almost there. It’s right on the cusp. Just that slight additional attention to detail and I’d have been sold.
    HEY!
    [​IMG]
    :)
    TROS IS a sledgehammer. JJ isn’t exactly a subtle filmmaker. So when an element isn’t telegraphed, it tends to stand out. Not as a modicum of deftness, but more as unintentional oversight. Either way, I get the distinct impression you’d find a means to justify it as somehow perfect regardless :D
    I’m confused. Is this directed at me? “Love, forgiveness, understanding”. Those are terms I advocated for with respect to their relationship. I just fail to see why that then necessitates the ultra-problematic smooching. A man and a woman can love each other without it being amorous. It exists. It’s not some sort of defeat.
    I’ll let George Lucas explain. “It’s a film for 12-year-olds. This is what we stand for. You’re about to enter the real world. You’re moving away from your parents. You’re probably scared, you don’t know what’s going to happen. Here’s what you should pay attention to: Friendships, honesty, trust, doing the right thing. Living on the light side, avoiding the dark side.” Source

    No, these aren’t real people going through real experiences. They’re allegory. They’re parable. They’re life lessons. The circumstances, and the characters’ reactions to them, are intended to be reference and endorsement for impressionable youth. That’s by design. They’re abstractions that contain pertinent messages that can then be applied to their real lives.

    And because of that, there is tremendous onus to depict these circumstances responsibly. These movies aren’t meant to be ingested as frivolous consequence free environments. They’re morality tales. That’s why they exist. I don’t think it’s at all unfair to scrutinize their effective morality.
    Meaning what exactly? It gets a pass? Certain genres should be exempt from accountability because they double as escapism? Now that is deeply disturbing to me.
     
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  14. GingerByte

    GingerByte Guest

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    Lucas said the light side draws upon the power of selflessness, whilst the light selfishness. The more selfless or selfish one's act, the greater the power. We know from TCW season 6, that part of the path towards becoming a force ghost requires one to accept and conquer their inner darkness. Yoda does this by acknowledging that he has a dark side, that the Clone War has blinded him, furthered his arrogance, and he does in fact revel in it to an extent. Forced to confront this truth, it ultimately starts changing his chain of thought during the final months of the war.

    Assuming Ben had received force ghost training from Luke, he requires no pep talk. Just like Anakin, not only has he faced his darkness and won, he has performed the most selfless act possible: giving his life for another, and as such he has been rewarded with eternal life.
    You're really cherry picking with your interpretation of that quote. Many of Lucas' Star Wars stories outside the films have dealt with shades of grey, and are "consequence free". By your logic, Ventress' arc in The Clone Wars is abysmal simply because she never truly faces any consequences for once working under Count Dooku. The Jedi choose not to hunt her down, execute, or imprison her, in fact they even offer to pardon her actions and forgive her. And after she sacrifices herself to save Quinlan Vos (whom she loves), they honour her memory and remember her for the person she really was, not the hate-filled victim Dooku had twisted her into becoming.

    The logic you're applying here is why so many prisons fail. People think they're for punishing, but the true purpose of a prison is to take dangerous people off the streets, re-educate them, and eventually help re-integrate them into society.
     
    #174 GingerByte, Jan 17, 2020
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  15. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    It's impossible for me to cede a point which I never maintained. I'm agreeing with you that Luke initially rejected Rey. He wanted her to go away and leave him alone. But because of her persistence he agreed to train her in the fundamentals. Begrudgingly.

    That's not what he was doing, his lessons were fundamentals. He just wanted to train her in the fundamentals then send her packing. What part of the "breathe" lesson was "trying to turn a young idealist"? How is "it's so much bigger than that" trolling Rey? He's genuinely giving her three lessons so she'll go away. But the fundamentals are still the fundamentals, begrudgingly taught or not, and the fundamentals are the foundation.

    Rey is a Jedi. All of the values Rey is established to cherish are in Luke. Also the Jedi. Who happens to walk the exact same path as Rey. Leia didn't grow up as a nobody on a desert planet, or have a lightsaber given to her. Leia didn't have to walk a lone path away from her friends to find her destiny. Leia didn't have to go into the cave on Dagobah and have her fears come to life. Leia didn't have to go face-to-face with the emobidment of that fear and overcome it to save the galaxy. Leia didn't run away from her destiny and impose self-exile and have to have a former mentor show up and teach her a final keystone lesson in order to complete her journey. All of this is Luke's path and Rey's path. The two are the type of "family" that no one else in the galaxy can claim to be.

    Leia accepted Rey, sure. She guided Rey along her path, sure. She's important, sure. But Rey was not only founded and keystoned (key being the key word) by Luke - Rey IS Luke. Leia and Poe are more alike than Leia and Rey.

    But Luke did consider himself a Skywalker, and Rey is Luke, not Leia. It's the part where Rey didn't consider herself a Palpatine but a Skywalker (that is, Rey didn't consider her identity to be by blood, but by spirit) that is Leia-like. Both twins are in the heritage claim: Luke by the name and Leia by the means of choice of name.

    It echoed through the galaxy in the form of Rey and the Resistance! Luke at the end of TLJ was saving Rey and the Resistance. That's why he says to Kylo, it won't be the end of the Resistance, and "I will not be the last Jedi" - he is saving he day for Rey and the Resistance so they in turn can accomplish their destiny (Rey most importantly). You're not comprehending how everything the characters are doing is connected and working together in a mutually beneficial relationship greater than the sum of its parts.

    [​IMG]
     
    #175 iostream, Jan 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
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  16. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    By “consequence free”, I’m not referring to in-world concepts of crime and punishment. I’m talking about audience reception. When a core foundation of a story is to convey messages to an impressionable audience, is it really unreasonable to then look at those messages and determine their appropriateness? Is that just a completely crazy idea?

    When someone is trying to teach my kid some sort of value, I don’t just tune out and hope it isn’t harmful. I engage. I listen to what’s actually being said and I weigh in if necessary. “…and that’s why it’s totally OK to hit somebody if they make fun of you” - “whoa whoa whoa - hold on a second there…”
    Yeah, maybe. That might in fact be someone’s takeaway from that arc and, guess what, they’re intitled to it. The impression I’m getting here is that such discourse is largely unwelcome - that these stories should be taken at face value regardless of what message may be unintentionally communicated. It’s only fantasy after all.
    Sheesh, speaking of “cherry picking”, I made this same argument earlier in this thread :)

    The logic I’m applying here is that we shouldn’t be strangely LESS aware of the messaging behind media targeted at children. We should be MORE aware: what are they actually saying with this and how might that be misconstrued? Is that illogical to you?

    I gave my opinion on the romantic angle solidified in TROS. I found it to be irresponsible and unnecessary. That’s my honest assessment. When prompted to expand on it, I explained how I came to that conclusion. I’m not leading some grassroots campaign to force Lucasfilm to release a ‘kissless cut’ of TROS. I’m not trying to take away someone else’s enjoyment of the film.

    I’m expressing my unease over an element I found to be concerning and hoping to maybe inspire others to look deeper beyond the surface level. If that’s not agreeable to some people, then so be it. I’d personally prefer the counter argument though not essentially be “stop trying to ruin my good time”. I don’t really see how that’s constructive.
     
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  17. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    No, it's not. You clearly don't understand the purpose of a motif. The purpose is to guide the movement toward a resolution which is being guided by the motifs. "2,4,6,8..." is a numeric motif that is guiding you toward the ONE resolution of "10". The fact that you're confusing this with "Hey let's change things up to be different" is why you think "25" is an appropriate resolution to the former motif. But it's not. If you write a story which goes "2" then "4" (now your audience is going, hm - added 2?) then "6" (audience is now, oh, okay, increments of 2?) then "8" (audience is now "oh yes, increments of 2 - 10 will be the resolution) then "25!" (audience is now "wait. What? That doesn't make sense. Wasn't it increments of 2? But, 25? I don't understand).

    Motifs are to guide toward a resolution so the resolution is a natural and expected place in which to end.

    You want to set up a series of motifs in order to ignore them at the end. You want Beethoven's Fifth to suddenly go into contemporary jazz at the end. You want this because you are tired of the fate motif in Beethoven's Fifth. But you know what isn't tired of the fate motif in Beethoven's Fifth? Beethoven's Fifth. What you're asking makes no sense, wrecks the narrative and, for what? It adds nothing to the narrative. Nothing but "hey, here's something unlike everything that happened prior to this, with no connection to anything at all."

    Ben was not "living to atone" he was hiding from the Empire and watching over Luke. Even if he was what you're doing is "Hey, let's have Anakin's motif repeat just like his ancestor, except invert and involute in a pleasing symmetry- until right at the end when it suddenly veers off inexplicabley into Kenobi who isn't his relative or anything like Anakin at all. But he's got the same name so?" That's awful. It just is. What the writers did, is the really smart and good thing. What you're wanting is the nonsensical and awful thing.

    I get that you're really impressed with your own ideas and wants, but just because they're your ideas and wants, don't make them good.

    Nobody said it did.

    Yep. And it would've been way less poignant than a symbiotic, mutually beneficial, Palpatine-Skywalker relationship that worked together, healing one another, in order to save the galaxy, eliminate the Sith and rebirth the Jedi order with a blood-Palpatine(irony in your face Sidious), spirit-Skywalker. The writers took the symbiotic motif of TPM (which was self-contained motif for TPM) and made it the head motif of the saga, coming to full fruition in episode 9. If anyone can't see how astonishing a feat of writing that is by these writers (that being one example of many in this episode) then your ability to evaluate writing is suspect, at best.

    I know that you think your ideas are better. I can see you waving your flag and patting yourself on the back.

    All that tells me is that you don't understand at all what is going on in the scene.

    Uh, except that binary means "two" and Luke and Leia are "two" the reason Rey is burying "two" sabers? See how you've completely missed the obvious connection?

    Why not just erase the smile on the Mona Lisa? Sounds like a great idea.

    Alright, dude. The point of the claim of "Skywalker" was exactly based on being able to claim the name "Skywalker" without having a convoluted bloodline. That's why the entire theme of the movie is "spirit not blood determines identity" - you've clearly missed everything in the movie. You've not only missed everything, you've come away understanding things backwards.

    That's great. I'm sure they're all... I don't know, man. Insert your own word there. Fill in the blank type of thing. Take it easy.
     
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  18. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    The most harmless thing in TROS is that Rey takes the name Skywalker. I have spoken.
     
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  19. Lylo Ren

    Lylo Ren Rebel General

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    YES times a thousand. You get it.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 17, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 17, 2020 ---
    Agreed. I honestly found it a bit corny, but hey, it's SW.
     
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  20. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Maybe I should have ended that first line with a winky face or smiley. I was being bratty more than anything. That “cantankerous” bit was just so silly and misses the whole point of Luke’s arc though. 'He was just grumpy. Maybe woke up on the wrong side of the bed' :D
    Sorry, no. It’s pretty evident from the actual dialog what’s happening. Let’s go over it together.

    Rey to Luke: Leia sent me here with hope. If she was wrong, she deserves to know why.
    Luke to R2: I wish I could make you understand. But I'm not coming back.
    R2 plays Leia’s original message pleading for help
    Luke to Rey: Three lessons. I will teach you the ways of the Jedi...and why they need to end.

    Luke is trying to make Rey understand why he’s turned his back on his family, the Force, the Jedi, and the Galaxy so she can then relay that information back to Leia. It’s important to him that his sister know he didn’t come to “the most unfindable place in the galaxy for no reason at all”. It’s not at all in service to Rey’s increased knowledge in the Force as she desired. It’s about getting her to think like him, so she can go back and tell Leia since he's not going to. He came there to die after all.
    This is fun. OK, let’s look at the actual dialog for this exchange too. What were those principles intended to lead to?

    Luke to Rey:
    this is the lesson. That Force does not belong to the Jedi. To say that if the Jedi die, the light dies, is vanity. Can you feel that?

    This is a reference to Rey’s earlier declarations of “We need your help. We need the Jedi Order back. We need Luke Skywalker.” And his response “You don't need Luke Skywalker”. This “lesson” is entirely centered on him articulating that position. He’s trying to convince her that the Jedi are irrelevant. That he’s irrelevant. He’s actively trying to discourage her from following this path. Not to better understand the greater nature of the Force, but to better understand his mindset so she can share it with others.

    And where does that mode of thinking immediately lead?

    Luke to Rey:
    You went straight to the dark.
    Why?
    Rey to Luke: That place was trying to show me something.
    Luke to Rey: It offered you something you needed.

    It was offering her something Luke was deliberately denying her: the promise of belonging and understanding. Make sense?

    Now let’s move on to that second “foundational” lesson. Shall we?

    Luke to Rey:
    Now that they are extinct, the Jedi are romanticized, deified. But if you strip away the myth and look at their deeds, the legacy of the Jedi is failure.

    Again, this has nothing at all to do with promoting any sort of advancement toward understanding this esoteric power she has or what to do with it. It’s about getting her to think the way HE does. Plain and simple. It’s propaganda, not enlightenment.

    Now for that all important third lesson . . . . hmm. I guess it was ghost Luke reminding her of the lesson she was trying to teach him all that while? My headcanon is that the third lesson was the one Yoda taught him, but that’s nothing to do with anything.

    Anyway, where do all these crucially fundamental lessons ultimately leave Rey? “I thought I'd find answers here. I was wrong. I've never felt so alone.” <slow clap for Luke>
    Sure, he taught her how to ‘reach out’. That’s not nothing. It was mostly the byproduct of a self-centered attempt at manipulation, not totally unlike Rey accidentally learning the ‘mind trick’ from Kylo, but yeah, I’ll grant you that. He broadened her horizons. Hooray!!
    Not the version of Luke Rey met. Spectral Luke, sure. Are we supposed to assume that Rey has seen all the Star Wars movies like we did? This trilogy is pretty nebulous on that point. Just how much does Rey actually know of Luke’s journey? She knew about him redeeming Vader. Is that common knowledge? Does everyone know that? Did Leia give her the inside scoop? Is Rey modeling herself after a theoretical ‘idea’ of Luke Skywalker someone told her about once? You’re talking ‘theme’. I’m talking ‘character’. What practical, rich experiences has the Rey character shared with the Luke character? Not conceptual, actual.
    Did somebody use the term ‘keystone’ in this movie? ‘Key is the keyword in keystone’. Why yes . . . yes it is. That word is definitely relevant to the context in which you decided to use it. No argument here. Again, you’re talking ‘theme’ when I’m talking ‘character’. We’re continuing to speak different languages at each other.
    No. I’m comprehending just fine. I’m voicing my underwhelmed reception of Rey’s announcement and articulating exactly why. That moment would have been more impactful and resonant to me had it been more evidenced throughout the narrative. You felt it was handled just right, and bully for you. It landed weakly for me because I wasn’t convinced through its execution in the narrative of the inevitability. But that’s me. Your mileage has varied. Stupendous!!
     
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