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The Force Awakens is far better than Empire Strikes Back...

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by andrea.conti.91, Jun 30, 2016.

  1. andrea.conti.91

    andrea.conti.91 Rebelscum

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    Alright, this is my first thread. I'm not english, so forgive my errors if you'll find them.

    As a SW fan, I automatically answer to the question "What's the best SW movie?" with: "The Empire Strikes Back". I mean... everyone loves TESB, at least every "real" SW fan. On a scale of 1 to 10, everyone should give almost 9 to that sci-fi masterpiece, and I sincerely think TESB is a masterpiece. But... why fans love it so unconditionally? Or, better: why fans put TESB on the first position even in front of a movie much better written like The Force Awakens?

    I know... this is a little provocative. I explain: every fan noticed how TFA's script was unoriginal. This is true: TFA is a mix of the most significative scenes or themes from the original trilogy, redone with modern technologies and modern sensibility. But, if fans are so able to find lack of originality, presumed plot holes or weak points in the new script, why they are so blind in front of the worst SW movie in terms of script? And, of course, I'm talking about TESB.

    A contemporary narratology school calls "move" every event that brings a significant turn to a story. Leia hiding the Death Star's plan into R2-D2 is a pivotal "move" in the script of A New Hope; Ben Kenobi giving Anakin's saber to Luke is not. The story would have not gone further without Leia's "move", but it would have gone further as well without Ben's "move". So, my opinion is that TESB has a very few moments you can call "significant moves".

    I explain, again: what's the plot of TESB talking about? The ghost of Ben Kenobi appears to Luke on Hoth, and tells him to find Yoda on Dagobah. Luke goes to Dagobah, begins his Jedi training and then, after a vision of the Force, he decides to go to Bespin to save his friends, previously trapped by the Empire. In Cloud City, he faces Darth Vader, learns that he is his father, gets knocked out and escapes with Lando and Leia, but not with his right hand.

    If you pay attention, the really significant "moves" are just a few (Ben appearing to Luke; Luke finding Yoda; Luke having the vision; Luke facing Vader). In fact, whole scenes like the entire Battle of Hoth or the entire asteroid field chase are totally insignificant, because: 1) Luke already saw Ben's ghost before the battle; and 2) the asteroid field chase isn't important at all in making Han decide to go to Bespin. I know, there are levels of importance that don't allow us to divide only between significant or insignificant "moves". The asteroid chase lead the Falcon to hide itself into the cave; during the permanence in the cave, Han and Leia fall in love. But, from the point of view of the plot development, the asteroid field scenes are quite unnecessary - you can erase them, and the movie will lose very few (just as the battle of Hoth: Han already decided to go away, due to the bounty on his head, so the battle doesn't strictly allows him to get chased by the Empire in the further scenes).

    TESB is a movie made around situations. Very well "composed", but fragmented. There is just a very thin line connecting these situations, and it is thin as well. I love TESB, because it has very strong dialogues and characters... but, as a STORY, it is very poor. Now... go to TFA.

    What's the plot of TFA talking about? A Resistance pilot, before being captured, hides a map in a droid, and sends it into the desert. The droid runs into Rey, and then, they run both in Finn, a traitor stormtrooper who crashed on Jakku after trying to save the pilot. The three are suddenly chased by the FO, and then escape the planet aboard the Millenium Falcon. The ship is tracked by Han Solo. He decides to help the three heroes. They fly to Takodana searching a "clear ship" to put the droid in, but two spies call both the Resistance and the FO, and then a battle starts over the planet. During the battle Rey's captured by the villain, and Han and Finn decide to go to save her. In Starkiller base, they save Rey, but Han goes killed by the villain, and the villain himself faces Finn and Rey, who beats him. Rey, Finn and Chewie fly away from Starkiller base with the Falcon, and when they arrive in Resistance base, Rey discovers the map to find Luke.

    As you see, TFA is full of "moves" that make the story, scene by scene, even more complex and dense. The very first 40 minutes of the movie are really dense, and full of Abrams' baroque taste in creating stories rich of events and characters. Even a simple JACKET, took by Finn after the crash, is a significant move: it allows BB8 to notice Finn at Niima outpost. Without the jacket, maybe they would have never joined together. And the Falcon? It allows Rey and Finn to get found by Han and Chewie. And the hologram projected by BB8 in front of Rey? It allows Kylo Ren to abduct Rey. And so on...

    Using an engineering metaphor, we could say in TFA's plot there is no much energy dissipation, and every event, small or big (except a few moments) products its own response in the story-system. In TESB, there is a much larger dissipation, and just a few events, in a 2-hours-lenght movie, product a tangible response in the plot system. This is not very bad: a movie (a story in general), is not only a schematic succession of events. There are scenes that are usefull to make the right atmosphere, to investigate the lore or the characters... But it's funny how the ratio between significant and secondary (if not unsignificant) "moves" is high in TESB, even if compared with A New Hope (in which, just as in TFA, there is a very compact and complex script).

    My clue is not that TESB is a bad movie, and TFA a great one. My clue is that the best SW movie according to the fans is also the poorest in terms of narrative, and the newest one, which made fans fight each other, is by far one of the densest and richest of events in the entire saga. Even Revenge of the Sith has much less "moves" than TFA, and much more secondary and insignificant events, like the battle of Kashyyyk.

    So... I think TFA is not just "unoriginal"... It has a very good written script, with many characters and many events that make sense into the story, and make the story itself pleasant and full of turns (a turn is not only a paternity revelation). So... just as a good SW movie should be.

    If it can help, there's my personal SW ranking:

    1- A New Hope; 2- The Empire Strikes Back; 3- The Force Awakens; 4- Return of the Jedi; 5- Reveng of the Sith; 6- The Phantom Menace; 7- Attack of the Clones.
     
    #1 andrea.conti.91, Jun 30, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2016
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  2. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Sith in the North
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    You make a lot of good points, but I'm not sure exactly what argument you are trying to make (if any). While TESB was a great film, I don't think you can judge it solely on these "moves" especially compared to something made into today's era of film-making, which usually tends to be much more fast-paced than in the late 70s / early 80s. I think TESB was a great "journey" episode, as many second acts should be, when several necessary events happen in order to reach the final act (ROTJ). The rebels are on their heels, Luke is on his way to becoming a Jedi, and it ends on a cliffhanger. Of course there are going to be bumps and interruptions along the way which is what makes it so gripping and entertaining.

    Your personal SW ranking lines up pretty much the same as mine, personally I don't know if I would really move any. But then, you titled this post "TFA is far better than TESB" but then ranked TFA behind TESB? I'm a little confused with the flip-flopping...(r2-d2) you would make a good politician :p
     
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  3. andrea.conti.91

    andrea.conti.91 Rebelscum

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    The title was just a provocation. I put TFA behind TESB because TESB is a far more important sci-fi movie, and certainly more original than TFA, which continue to be more a celebrative episode :)

    I don't have any particular point, just hoping to start a serious discussion about TFA and the "untouchable" old movies. The web is full of people complaining about how linear and scarsely original TFA story is, but I think TESB, the best SW movie according to everyone, has not a very impressive plot, just something basic and specious. So, the question: what we really like about TESB? and what we really think TFA did worst than TESB? Just to destroy some taboo :)

    EDIT: rethinking about the thread, this is my main clue: TFA could not be the best SW movie in terms of characters (it's a "first movie", so they have to be developed as well), but it is surely one of the best in terms of plot complexity and narrative consistence. Even if not so original.
     
    #3 andrea.conti.91, Jun 30, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2016
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  4. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens Gatekeeper & Avatar Maker

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    I almost broke the internet when I read this thread title.
     
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  5. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    @andrea.conti.91, congrats on your first thread! I agree with you in a way. I also agree with @DarthSnow in the sense that TESB is a great journey/second arc movie. I'd also add that TESB doesn't have as many "moves," as you quote because it shouldn't. These "moves" are more like plot coincidences, and while I love love LOVE how they occurred in TFA, it wouldn't strengthen the franchise to have these occur again in the second part of the series.

    I think what people love about TESB is the same thing they like about TFA: reuniting with familiar characters and expanding to meet new ones (Lando, Yoda, the Emperor), new worlds and story arcs (ANH is literally just the Hero's Journey; TESB is most definitely not, and TFA in a way breaks the mold by having Finn in a coma and Rey leave), new Skywalker family connections, and explaining the Force (or in TFA's case, resetting it). Is TFA better than TESB? That depends on your personal taste, but there are a lot of points (most of which you mentioned) that probably get overlooked when comparing them to the "untouchable" OT.

    Also, my personal ranking includes (and switches depending on my mood): 1. Return of the Jedi 2. Revenge of the Sith 3. The Empire Strikes Back/The Force Awakens 5. A New Hope 6. The Phantom Menace 7. Attack of the Clones
     
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  6. andrea.conti.91

    andrea.conti.91 Rebelscum

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    I see that even you put AOTC at the last position :)

    TESB has a very great atmosphere, and I think no other saga movie has already reached that level of darkness and mistery (maybe Ep.8 will? hopefully...). This is what I love about TESB, that every character can be a spy or do double play. There is no way to know who someone really is: Yoda, Lando, even and especially Vader. This is a great point reached by that movie.

    But, even when I was a child, I used to think that the plot connections were weak. I don't like the cave scene, it could have been really better (TFA tried to "adjust" that scene with the forceback vision, but I'm not sure if I liked it), and the vision of Luke is a pretty confused moment. The entire Han's torture scene is almost gratuitous, and I didn't get Vader tortured him to make that vision appears to Luke. I get it at the third or fourth view, when I was a child, and even now I think that "move" is confused and not so well contextualized.
     
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  7. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Sith in the North
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    Oh man. As quickly as Finn renounced his First Order brethren, what if he gets involved with the Resistance doing something that flips that switch right back?? If only temporarily...
     
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  8. andrea.conti.91

    andrea.conti.91 Rebelscum

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    Some of the latest rumors make me think in Ep.8 Finn will be tested as an ex-stormtrooper. Maybe in front of some old camerate...
     
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  9. Light Savior

    Light Savior Force Attuned

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    Hi there @andrea.conti.91 and COOL this is your first thread.I know that most of us have our more best and less best movies about the SW saga.For me ALL SW movies are important BUT AHN take a very special place on my heart.Is my childhood...:).
     
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  10. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens Gatekeeper & Avatar Maker

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    Star Wars was EPIC on so many levels, but without TESB's big reveal, the SAGA never reaches its zenith.

    Its just cowboys in space with walking carpets, glow sticks and mystical energy fields.

    [​IMG]
    Vader's dialog set the SAGA on its ear, and the rest is history.
     
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  11. andrea.conti.91

    andrea.conti.91 Rebelscum

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    I've read somewhere that Philip K. Dick was in the theater in 1980, and went stunned by the revelation.
     
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  12. General_Tarkin

    General_Tarkin Rebel General

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    ESB is not the the best SW movie according to anyone. In fact imo, with the exception of Vader's reveal and the training scenes with Yoda, its not really that special.
    To me ANH is the best, because it was the one which started the wonder, surpassing everyone's expectations all around the world back then. No matter how good ESB was, it was just a sequel. One which can not exist without its predecessor.
    The reason why TFA made 2 billion dollars nearly 40 years later, is the greatness of the 1977 movie.
    And Im saying this as someone who's first SW movie in a theatre was TPM.
     
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  13. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens Gatekeeper & Avatar Maker

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    Well, that goes a long way to explain why you keep leaving the "T" out of "T.E.S.B.":eek:
    [​IMG]

    :p
     
    #13 Lord of the Rens, Jul 2, 2016
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  14. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    If TESB feels fragmented it is because the characters are seperatef for most of the movie.

    I disagree with your; what is it about? It is clearly about Luke's trials and discovery of who.he is and his father.

    TESB is not my favorite it is my second favorite but TFA as much as I love it is too fast paced. Just when you starting to get know someone they die or disappear. I wished it had slowed down and developed some things more. Other than that I love it.
     
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  15. Boushhdisguise

    Boushhdisguise Jedi General

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    Darth Qaidous Rebel Official

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    Not a bad break down. Thanks for the effort.

    My personal SW ranking (as it is after all one long singular story) at this moment:

    1. Episode I = Episode II = Episode III = Episode IV = Episode V = Episode VI = Episode VII
     
  17. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens Gatekeeper & Avatar Maker

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    I do believe that this is the first time my eyes have seen someone rank The Charmed Life and Fun Times of Jar Jar Binks Midichlorian-Menace as their first and favorite SW film.

    Threepio: "Shut me down. I can't process what I just saw."
    :p
     
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  18. sbs87

    sbs87 Lord of The Dark Arts

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    Personally...
    IV
    V
    VI

    VERY SAMLL GAP HERE
    VII
    III
    I
    II

    I really don't think anything will surpass IV and V for me and not just for nostalgia's sake. Not even for how new and cutting edge they were at the time. Just because they really are the core of the story that every other Star Wars has been built upon. ROTJ can possibly be dethroned in my #3 spot because while it is an awesome movie (and even TFA didn't pass it up for me) its really just the last 35-40 minutes of the movie that really seem to matter for the OT story. Yes it reveals that Luke has a sister and it shows that Luke was right about Vader but as a whole it still isn't quite on par with IV and V. An ST movie might be able to do that better.
     
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  19. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens Gatekeeper & Avatar Maker

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    1.) The ESB: "I'm ur Daddeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!"
    2.) Star Wars: "I've been waiting 4 u, Obeeee Wan!"
    3.) ROTS: "I killed ur Daddee Darth Plaaaaagueis!"
    4.) Jar Jar's magnum opus: "CGI + Midichlorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrians!"
    5.) Revenge of the not-reincarnated Jedi: "Ewoks aren't Wookieeeeeeeeees!"
    6.) Attack of the Green Screen: "Ninja Yoda vs Count Doooooooooooo--Doooooo!"
    7.) Darth Disney's-Seven: "Reincarnaaaaaaaaaaaaaation and a sun-sucking planet!"
     
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  20. C3-Steve-O

    C3-Steve-O Rebel General

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    'Empire' is very much Vader's story, which is why it works so well. We learn in the opening crawl that Vader has become obsessed with finding Luke, but we don't really know why. All the action in this film is driven by that simple motivation. You suggest the battle of Hoth and asteroid chase are relatively insignificant, but they're essential in establishing just how consumed Vader has become with capturing Luke. In Act I, Vader leads an assault on the Rebel base, ruthlessly murdering Imperial officers whose incompetence might foil his plans. In Act II, Vader relentlessly pursues the Falcon, even risking the safety of his fleet as he steers them into a dangerous asteroid field. In Act III, Vader finally confronts his son -- and we find out why in one of the best twists in movie history. The story is incredibly well-structured, well-paced, and well-told. There's a reason many fans consider it their favorite.
     
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