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The Force User Debate

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Just Passing Through, Dec 18, 2016.

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How should force users be handled in future films?

  1. There can only be one! (maybe one other.....but s/he must die quickly)

    8.3%
  2. As many as I want!! With lightsaber colours as varied as the rainbow!!

    91.7%
  1. Just Passing Through

    Just Passing Through Rebel General

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    Random title right? Well to be honest I couldn't really think of anything better to summarise the topic I wish to discuss in this thread.

    It's something that has been discussed in many other threads under many different guises but they all surround the same issue: the number of force users, jedi, sith whatever. Discussions in the other Star Wars forum (which shall remain nameless) prompted me bring the discussion over to these parts.

    You may have seen it most furiously discussed in the Finn character discussion thread where those in favour of him being Force Sensitive (FS) are arrayed against those are not. The aspect of the debate normally focuses on how having more than one force user diminishes the importance of the sole force user (Rey in this instance) and crowds their storyline. Another line of thought is that it deprives Finn of his everyman characteristic, his ordinariness but that is less frequently used and even less frequently given credence.

    The other thread this topic is most frequently seen is any concerning Luke Skywalker and, more specifically, the restoration of the Jedi Order. It can link in to the Finn debate but most often it settles around whether there should be any more Jedi at all or whether Rey is something new and special (geez) which transcends the light and dark side. The essence of this debate is essentially that some people are favour of more force users than just one apprentice and her master while others would have all Force orientated orders operate under a permanent rule of two, made so popular by the Sith.

    Another thread you may have seen it crop its head is any discussion of the Knights of Ren, specifically whether they themselves are force sensitive. The exact reasons behind this argument is less clear, in fact I can't really explain to you why the detractors of FS KoR hold such a position outside the desire to maintain a rarity of Force Users.

    So why have I created this thread and what are we meant to discuss? Well, to put it simply, I thought it would be nice to concentrate all those separate debates outlined above and discard the pretence behind each of them to get to the core disagreement over the future of force wielders in the Star Wars saga.

    Outline how you see Force Users being used in future films (especially in this trilogy) and what you would like to see, and of course why.

    Set out your stalls, boys and girls. Dig your trenches and sharpen your bayonets,
     
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  2. DrewDeLand

    DrewDeLand Rebel Trooper

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    I believe in the OT thinking how the force surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together and in that thinking anyone can have it. As a child I always wanted to have that and allowing people who believe can have that ability as well.
     
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  3. nightangel

    nightangel Rebel Official

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    I would have voted a middle way, with maybe a kind of roundtable like order. ;) Maybe more who can let themselves be guided by the force, while a limited group is able to manipulate it. ;)
     
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  4. Yoda Man

    Yoda Man Clone

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    I feel this way exactly...thats what made the force so cool in the OT that is was this mysterious thing in the SW galaxy. Now I do feel that they should explore the idea of how different portions of the galaxy view the force through the lens of the jedi, sith, whills, etc. I do hope we get to a point in the sequel trilogy where we get "grey" Jedi.
     
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  5. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I don't think it's necessary to limit it to one, but I don't want everyone to be force sensitive either.

    Personally, I'm actually a proponent of the Finn "everyman" party. I like that he's a former stormtrooper, and I think there are a lot of other directions they could take his character other than the typical jedi route. Of course, they could make him a canon Kyle Katarn, which is a tempting idea...

    We have jedi. We have characters who aren't jedi, but attuned to the Force. One thing that might be cool is for Finn to take a liking to lightsabers, but not be strong in the Force. Basically, after holding his own against Ren and TR-8R (not that he did overly well, but he managed to cross blades with a Force sensitive dark jedi and walk away from the encounter, which is no small accomplishment) they might become part of his arsenal.

    As for the Knights of Ren, I assumed they were force sensitive when I saw TFA the first time. I guess an argument could be made that Kylo rose as their leader due to his own force sensitive nature, implying it was something they didn't have. Then, of course, there's the Rule of Two, but I don't know if that still applies anyway. I kind of like how, if the KOR were force sensitive, it would mimic Darth Krayt's crew in Legends.
     
  6. mrverylongusername

    mrverylongusername Rebelscum

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    Everything that has come out of Lucasfilm since the prequels has been widening the interpretation of what the Force is, how it manifests, how it is revered or worshipped and how it is harnessed by many different groups. We had Clone Wars' Mortis Arc, Yoda missions and Nightsisters. Rebels brought us the Lasat and the Ashla and more recently the Bendu. Rogue One creates a huge, previously unexplored, religious aspect to the Jedi with the Temple of the Whills and its Guardians. Force prayers and "not-a-Jedi" Jedi like power (remember a blind man shooting a tie fighter down to crash into and destroy a laser turret? that's one helluva 'lucky' shot!). The Force Awakens has teased us with the Church of the Force and first Jedi temples.

    We've got Force trees from comic books and probably much more (I tend to stick to the TV/Films so my knowledge of that aspect of the canon is limited).

    The OT concept of the Force as a religion, "The Force of Others" rather than the clunky science-ised Midichlorian version of the PT has re-emerged. The Whills - are they a religious order aligned with the Jedi perhaps? or is it yet another name for the Force?

    We still do not know the fate of Kanan, Ezra and Ashoka, but we do know that Hera and Chopper and the Ghost survive at least to the time of A New Hope. Are we to believe that Baze and Chirrut were the only Guardians? Maz might claim she is "no Jedi", but she "knows the force"! Are they really just gonna leave that dangling there - esp. after the rumours of deleted scenes.

    So for me, the idea that they are going to limit the power of the force to just 2 Jedi and 2 Sith *again* after all this expansion is just ridiculous. Why devote such attention to developing a central part of the Star Wars mythology, only to restrict it again in the next film?
     
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  7. FN NewGuy

    FN NewGuy Rebel Commander

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    It has been more than hinted that the Jedi are actually just a portion of a larger population of force users. Like others have already stated, it will be interesting to see this explored in future films. The 'Bulletproof Monk' method of passing Jedihood from one aging Jedi to a new bright eyed one would get old. However, over saturation would also be bad. There's has to be a balance somewhere between AoTC Jedi army and TFA's the last Jedi going forward. The story of how they were almost made extinct was a good story told over 60 years of in universe time, but it can stagnate there and remain interesting.
     
  8. Legend Knight

    Legend Knight Force Sensitive

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    Chirrut is my ideal Force User even though he technically is not a Jedi. I loved that he was out with the common people mingling and always ready to help someone in need. His faith in the Force is unrivaled.
     
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  9. jedimasterjohnny

    jedimasterjohnny Rebelscum

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    I would love to see the Jedi order even out around 100 members or so. And the order would be less rigid, more like galactic travelers who go where the force directs them and occasionally get together to compare notes.
     
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  10. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    I really would love to see the Jedi order expand as this was always my dream after ROTJ. It would be great to have many new Jedi that we can fall in love with and which can be made the central part of different stories. On the Finn being a Jedi thing I'm in the "everyman" camp. I really don't want every single character to just have the ability to become a Jedi. I'd prefer Finn to be in the Chirrut Imwe camp. A guy who knows about the Force, respects it but is not himself Force sensitive.
     
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  11. Just Passing Through

    Just Passing Through Rebel General

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    I can certainly understand how that came across in the OT but I personally think it's a nonsensical proposition for the Star Wars universe. If belief in the force had tangible benefits in terms of the various force abilities (telekinesis, telepathy etc.) then millions of practitioners would be present. Entire armies would be trained in its use.

    It only stands to reason that only a few are capable of tapping into this energy. Sorry guys, I'm one of those who views the Force Sensitives as another sci-fi version of psychics or espers etc.
    I think that's a bit a of a weird differentiation. I'm assuming it's in reference to Chirrut Imwe but I haven't seen Rogue One yet so I cannot comment, only that they should cease trying to find new ways of saying FS.
    I don't think anyone wants everyone to be FS but certainly Star Wars films focused around bands of Jedi or pairs (Knight Errant tales, Magnificent Seven, 47 Ronin style etc.) would be far more interesting than essentially seeing Luke's story again but simply through a heroine's perspective.
    lol, poor choice of words?

    Lightsabers seem poor weapons for those who lack the ability to essentially bullet time with them.
    Yes, I had assumed so too but I was surprised to find advocates of some kind of mercenary squad of elite stormtrooper bodyguards only Yoda knows why. I hope for them to become a mainstay of the Star Wars universe as a sort of evil Knights of the Round table or 7 samurai.
    I certainly think they will be mentioning and perhaps delving into other Force users but the real question remains on the two mainstay Force groups: Jedi and Sith. They are likely going to remain the focus if only because of the public awareness of the former in particular so I don't see other groups rising to the same prominence.
    I don't so much think it was a problem of numbers in the AotC or the PT in general but more how the Jedi were handled. When such a large number of Jedi gather it should have been a much more momentous occasion with some real "awe" behind it, a feeling of overwhelming strength. Portrayal not numbers was the issue there.
    A knight's errant version of the Jedi Order is certainly interesting (although technically they were like that in the PT) take on them but I think a element of centralisation would be necessary, perhaps a few temples where they can rest learn and gather occasionally for significant discussions.

    I don't know if you've heard of the Witcher series (books or game series) but I think the Jedi could operate on a similar basis to them but obviously not dying out like the Witchers are.
    Same, I fear this trilogy will disappoint me in that regard.
    I don't really want to make this another Finn FS thread but I will say that I find the everyman character to be a very unfulfilling role (in most normal cases) and I wouldn't wish that on Finn. It's a role which exists solely to highlight the absurdity of the universe in which they live in, a commentator on the exceptional and emotional cheerleader.

    No sir, the everyman role is something no man would wish to be.
     
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  12. FN NewGuy

    FN NewGuy Rebel Commander

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    You could produce something akin to the 'Deceived' cinematic, but ultimately you are still just redshirting a bunch of Jedi warriors. Jon Snow/Aragon-like epic battles are climatic and make a real impact, but that can usually only be compelling once perhaps twice before it begins to get old. Having Jedi armies going forward takes a bit of the magic away Stormtroopers and Rebel/Resistance soldiers fill that role.
     
  13. Finn is a Jedi

    Finn is a Jedi Rebel Official

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    I really don't see Episode 8 introducing any new force-using characters (unless they have kept a Luke child secret) so I think the users will stay to Luke, Rey, Ben, Snoke, Maz Kanata (if they want to expand on her that way), Leia, and Finn (if he does end up being force sensitive). Force Awakens actually did have a lot so I really don't think they need anymore. I do hope though that there is a big time jump between Ep. 8 and Ep. 9 so that Ep.9 can have a larger rebuilt Jedi Order but because it would be new most of the new Jedi would be younglings and wouldn't need to be large roles in the film.
     
  14. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    Maybe it's best for the galaxy if "organized Force groups" di out & every 1 chills & acts like Maz?
     
  15. Just Passing Through

    Just Passing Through Rebel General

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    I don't think anyone is suggesting entire armies composed of Jedi. After all at their height the Jedi were only 10,000 in a galaxy of trillions so they were pretty rare. Commando teams of Jedi or wandering Knight errant (Ronin) Jedi or magnificent 7 Jedi, there are many variations of Jedi stories. The debate over numbers is whether people want to stick to this stale and irritating "chosen one" jedi story, one FS with mentor who dies: repeat and repeat.
    TFA had very few FS characters. I have very little hopes for a NJO having been founded during this trilogy since it essentially seems like the purpose of the trilogy is to repeat the OT but with a female protagonist.
    Multiple bars run by FS? The market would bubble and collapse.
     
  16. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    It is interesting to think about, though. So far, all Star Wars films have featured (or at least have been heavily related to) the Skywalker family, a family with a significant role in Jedi history. But saying that the Jedi are the only, or even the most populous, sect of the force simply from using what we know from the movies is like saying that English is the most spoken language in the world simply because you live in an area where it's the primary language. Regardless of the veracity of the claim, it's interesting that a different perspective could change things.
     
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