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SPECULATION The Impact of Leia's Death

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by master_shaitan, Jan 3, 2018.

  1. oldbert

    oldbert Guardian of Coffee Breaks

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    I will never ever give up that Ren will return to Ben even if it should be only half way to a more balanced character.
    Leia and Rey will trigger his development; don' t know if it pushes him to rethink his agenda, especially the death of Leia could start that process (I hope so).
    Oth the opinion of Rey seems more important for him after TLJ.

    Nevertheless they pushed him as near to a point of no return as possible. Rey closed the door at the End of VIII.
     
    #21 oldbert, Jan 17, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
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  2. TheBBP

    TheBBP Jedi Commander

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    We've had these back and forth's before in the Reylo thread with you desperately defending him for the sake of a Reylo connection. You've advocated for excuses like "he's confused" and even "he probably didn't mean it". He absolutely knew that Leia was there when he ordered "No prisoners". You don't think that he forgot that she was on that ship?

    All that said, I believe that between you and I that we've already established that I agree wholeheartedly with you that a redemption is imminent. I just think that it will come at a great cost. Redemption and forgiveness by those closest to him will not cover the price that he owes the galaxy.
     
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  3. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Pretty sure I didn't do that. I haven't once defended his actions, just attempted to explain them and what they mean.

    I'm not certain what he knew or what he was thinking. He was angry at this point. Enraged. In his darkest moment. I'm simply saying this has no bearing on what will eventually happen...which you seem to agree with anyway, so not sure what we're disagreeing about?

    I don't disagree with this. I personally think we will see him demise.
     
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  4. Trev

    Trev Rebel Official

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    I think it's bound to have a huge impact, not only because of the importance of the character to fans, but also because Leia was important to the other characters, too. In a sad sense, Episode IX will be Leia's film, just like Carrie wanted, but it'll be her film for the wrong reasons.

    That being said, I think that, in terms of the impact of Leia's death itself, it depends on how it's carried out. If the opening crawl just mentions that she died, I think it'll be underwhelming and leave little emotional impact for anyone. If anything, I think it will really piss people off. She deserves a lot more than a brief mention in the opening crawl. I read somewhere (I can't find the link now, so if someone has it and can post it, that would be great) that they used a lifelike model of Carrie Fisher during the scenes in The Last Jedi where Leia is recovering from her injuries, so that Carrie wouldn't have to lie still like that for long periods of time. If they still have that, I think they could use it in a funeral scene for her. (Even if they don't, they could still do a closed-casket funeral.)

    The thing is, with Leia's passing and funeral, you have a great opportunity to rally together the allies of the Resistance. Obviously, they would come for Leia because she has a lot of friends that she's made over the years, and for someone of her importance throughout the galaxy, it seems like a given that she'd have a funeral to honor her. (This would also be a great way to finally give closure to the fans.) It also could be a driving point for Kylo Ren's motives and emotional state in Episode IX. We know he has a soft spot for his mom, because he refuses to kill her in The Last Jedi, and I feel like his displeasure with Han as a father was always a lot more developed than his relationship with his mother.

    So, I think if they handle Leia's death properly and don't push it to the side, it could help them out a lot in terms of how the story is driven. But again, it needs to be handled extremely carefully because, if nothing else, they have to understand they're bringing an end to a character that meant a lot to us, and because Carrie Fisher was such an important person in her own right, I think it's in their best interest to do something that is respectful of both the character and the actress, and the legacies they leave behind.
     
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  5. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel General

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    You are under cutting Luke's actions and sacrifice as well as the surviving seed of a rebellion by now changing the rallying point to "for Leia!" which I consider far less inspiring in and out of universe than her presence.
    I also think people are under stating her role moving forward with the line to "follow him" because even following that through that isn't the end of her participation but instead I see she learned that she must move beyond a general when she could not bring her allies. It is time for her to lead beyond the military, the galaxy needs someone that can bring people together, that command respect, that can be a symbol, that inspires, that brings hope.

    It wasn't the end of her story but rather the time for her to grow into a role she was more desperately needed for in a galaxy with a hell of a vacuum and imbalance.

    Not a word between mother and son in this trilogy not a moment together is what this organically moves to? I don't see it.

    None of these idea folks work up pass the live and ready Carrie smell test for me because I don't much like the idea of weakening other parts as the response to another breaking down.

    Always error on the side of the story.
     
  6. Trev

    Trev Rebel Official

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    I was not by any means insinuating that Luke’s sacrifice was solely for Leia. I do think that, in a way, it was for her. She briefly lost hope, and he restored it, allowing her and the rebellion to continue. His sacrifice was crucial to the survival of the Resistance and I think that was extremely important.

    I do agree that the “follow him” thing was far from a way of minimizing her role going forward. Poe’s struggle throughout The Last Jedi is to restrain his self-confidence so that he can move into the leadership role that both Leia and Holdo know he is capable of. Finn said himself that Leia is a sign of hope to others across the galaxy, and that role is something that will stay with her long after she has passed. I think The Last Jedi set Poe up to take on a larger leadership position in Episode IX, but I’m unsure of what Leia’s role would’ve been originally and what it will be now that Carrie has passed. I still think the fact that she is such a crucial part of the narrative, both for the audience and for the characters within the story that see her as a sign of hope, means that, regardless of Carrie’s passing, what Leia represents to people is going to be crucial in bringing forces together to defeat the First Order in Episode IX.

    As for Leia and Kylo, their relationship was important. The reason Kylo Ren is the villain of these films is because he was motivated by his supposedly weak relationship with his parents. Kylo Ren is just as important to the narrative as Rey, and The Last Jedi established that they parallel each other in the sense that she came from nothing and has allowed his family members to serve as a sort of surrogate family to her, while he has come from everything and tried to destroy every last memory he has of his parents and uncle. His relationship with Leia is absolutely important to the narrative and I think Leia would have had a large role in whatever his final fate was. (I think she still will, to be honest.) Kylo Ren is very much an emotionally driven character. He has a lot of internal conflict and the broken relationships he shares with Luke, Leia, Han, and Rey are all big motivators for him, so I do think having a scene with Leia and Kylo Ren was important for Episode IX.

    I agree that other parts of the story shouldn’t be weakened because Carrie died, but at the same time, it’s difficult because her character was supposed to be a major part of how the story unfolds. I don’t think it’s so much a case of Lucasfilm trying to weaken the story to make up for her death as it is them trying to figure out how to make the story maintain its meaning without her. She was such a big part of the franchise and the narrative, and like I said, Leia represents a lot for people both within the narrative and the audience. They can’t just ignore her death like it’s no big deal.

    They need to find a way to address her death in a meaningful way that is satisfying for fans without it weighing down the story too much or taking away too much time from other things. That’s why I think integrating it into the story somehow, like with a funeral of some sorts, is a good idea because it accomplishes both.
     
  7. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel Official

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    I don' t think their is a good way to deal with Carrie fishers Death, for me in retrospect they probably should have changed Last Jedi once they found out she had died. They had the Death in space Leia didn't do that much after that point so could of easily been written out.

    I guess that would of caused a few problems, having Luke and Leia die in the same film may have been a bit much(those i suppose we kind of had that situation anyway as Carrie Fishers Leia is basically dead now anyway) also the fact that they had more footage of Carrie Fisher would have felt quite disrespectful cutting it out. But like i say I would of probably had Carrie die in space, and as Episode 9 wasn't written reshoot and rewrite it so Luke died in the first Act of Episode 9. This plan also has issues, but like I said their is no good way of dealing with Carrie Fishers Death.

    For me now the way I would go now would be set episode 9 a few years after the Last jedi have the film start with Leia funereal and have the New Order led by Kylo and the Knights of Ren attack during. Their is also the issue that obviously their was likely going to be an emotional show down between Ben/Kylo and his Mother, this obviously isn't possible now, for me I would try and replace part of this emotional weight by bringing back Hayden Christensen as force ghost Anakin to talk to Kylo which becuase of Kylo obsession with Vader you could use as a pivotal scene whether that be to start to redeem himself or reject the light completely and become irredeemable.

    But like i say no good way of handling it but thats they way i would go.
     
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  8. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Thanks for mansplaining.

    It is common in redemption arcs to make characters become very evil before turning them good. There are usually indicators that flag this outcome such as sad, sympathetic back stories or/and qualities one identifies with like, for example, vulnerability or gallantry (Kylo, in spite of all his ruthless instincts and manipulative mind reading comes across as quite a gallant character, in manner more that in fact, I admit, but still, a positive.) After two films I don't feel Kylo is good at being "bad" and that signals for me that he is going to turn "kind of good" at the end. Saying this, they could perfectly change the trajectory of Kylo in episode 9 and make him uber-evil who knows. That could be kind of cool if done well. But if redemption is coming I can only see it being caused by love, which means Reylo or some kind of Reylo at least on Kylo's part.

    JJ and RJ were the authors who made excuses for the character of Kylo in the first place. Why is it such a LOL if people take them at their word?

    As for Leia's death, yes I hope it makes a great impact in the story. It would make a lot of sense emotionally and lyrically.
     
    #28 Kylocity, Feb 12, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
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  9. TheBBP

    TheBBP Jedi Commander

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    I suppose that I will take being guilty of "mansplaining" over being willing to manufacture "gallantry" out of Kylo Ren.

    gal·lant·ry​
    ˈɡaləntrē/
    noun
    1.
    courageous behavior, especially in battle.
    "a medal awarded for outstanding gallantry during the raid"
    synonyms: bravery, courage, courageousness, valor, pluck, pluckiness, nerve, daring, boldness, fearlessness, dauntlessness, intrepidity, heroism, mettle, grit, stoutheartedness;More

    2.polite attention or respect given by men to women.synonyms: chivalry, chivalrousness, gentlemanliness, courtesy, courteousness, politeness, good manners, attentiveness, graciousness, respectfulness, respect"she acknowledged his selfless gallantry"

    You see that in Kylo Ren? Holy moly, how do you folks manage to make this stuff up with a straight face? You should at least explain for us simpletons where and how you get that absurd notion.
     
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  10. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    “Comes across as quite a gallant character in manner more than fact, I admit, but still a positive”
    (Re: sympathy touches are part of redemption arcs.)

    Sometimes it’s easy to miss the nuance of an argument because we see a word in an unusual context. Important to read twice.

    Us folks
     
    #30 Kylocity, Feb 12, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
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  11. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel General

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    I wasn't at all saying anything about Luke's sacrifice only being for Leia at all. I was saying I interpreted making Leia's death the motivation to rally support and provide motivation to rebel against the First Order. We just did that.

    I greatly appreciate your thoughtful post though. I feel your comment actually supports my case overall even if it comes from some disagreement on approach to a path forward.

    I can only encourage what I believe to be best overall and I think my rationales are reasonable. People are being reactionary about this and that seldom turns out for the best particular past the short term.

    I suspect you will get your way and no one will be better off for it but I'm hope I'm wrong about the latter even more than the former.
    The balance just isn't there on my scales so I can only hope they are miscalibrated.
     
  12. Trev

    Trev Rebel Official

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    Ah, I apologize! I think I misunderstood what you were going for there—my mistake! You’re right, though, I agree with you completely that her death could and should be used as a way of rallying support for the rebellion moving forward.

    I guess my big thing is that I really want them to handle her death in a meaningful way in Episode IX. It’s important for me and a lot of other fans, too, I think, that she gets more than a line in the opening crawl. Star Wars wouldn’t be what it is without Carrie Fisher or Princess Leia, and I want whatever they do for her character in this film to reflect that.

    For me, I keep coming back to the fact that Leia was supposed to play a huge role in the film. I don’t want everything about the film to change because of that, so I’m optimistic that they can alter her role to make her character’s death have the same impact—or a similar one—to the story. Therefore, they wouldn’t have to change everything about the story moving forward. If it was a good story, I would hate to see everything changed solely to accommodate one character (even if it is one of the most important), because there’s probably a way around that.

    Hopefully they will find a way to resolve the issue of her death moving forward in a way that pleases everyone in terms of how her character arc ends.
     
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