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The last Jedi and the fandom

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Darth Ezra, Dec 22, 2017.

  1. Darth Ezra

    Darth Ezra Clone Commander

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    It's been a week since most anticipated film of all time(at least since the last SW film) opened for general audiences. And to say it's had mixed reactions is an understatement. But most films get their fair share of praise and criticism. That's the nature of subjective opinions and is something all star wars movies up to this point was subject to, but something changed with the last Jedi. We are no longer talking about plot points and lore, the minutiae that is fun to debate. Instead it's article after article and thread after thread talking about audience scores, bots, box office totals, fan expectations and angry fan boys. at some point we were no longer fans but part of a movement who's outcome we attached our identities to. We need the last Jedi to be great because we need star wars to be great. We get joy, self esteem from this. Some where along the way we forgot that star wars was a movie that by all rights should have failed but didn't and was embraced by a public that got caught up in the pleasant fantasy in a galaxy far way. We memorised the lines, played with the toys, even made fan films. It was fun, but it wasn't life or death. We could admit return of the Jedi was the weakest of the OT without lighting the fandom ablaze. At the end of the day it didn't matter, they were just films. Fast forward to the current century and the first fan civil war, the prequels. older fans thought they weren't up to the quality they'd hoped for and said so, but for younger people who grew up with them, the prequels we're theirs and felt that constant criticism on them was attacking their childhoods and returned fire. This raged on for years until it seemed SW was in it's sunset years. No new movies seemed likely and the EU had burned out and many started to move on. Then Disney rode in on it's white horse and saved it from the bin. All was well for awhile as we entered a kind of honeymoon period as we awaited TFA. Fans were desperate for any info and dozens upon dozens of sites, message boards and YouTube channels arose to fill this demand. But instead of just being engaged for a trailer or huge announcement it was daily. Picking apart every tiny piece of news or just doing general cheerleading. Being apart of this constant news cycle changed the fandom from casual conversation about a film to something more akin to politics. It made it more important, more real, more necessary. If a star wars film is successful both critically and financially we feel like we won. I understand the desire to be part of something bigger than yourself, but at the end of the day it's just series of films meant to be enjoyed. No one cared in 1980 that empire got a luke warm reception because we as individuals loved it. But in 2017 our personal opinions don't matter, only what the group thinks. It kills me to see us talking about everything but the cool stuff. It kills me to see people like Kristian harloff having live melt downs because not everyone loves SW as much as he does. So much hate, so much teeth gnashing about something meant to bring joy. Yes there will always be people who hate things for the sake of hating but what difference does it make to you? You will always have the memories of your favorite moments and no mean comment or low RT score can take that away from you. Remember that and fun again.

    If you made it to the end, sorry this is so long but I needed to get it off my chest.
     
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  2. Chase7582

    Chase7582 Clone Trooper

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    Great post
     
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  3. Messi

    Messi Force Sensitive

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    As I like to say:

    We will always have the Classic Trilogy.

    So, if dont like the PT (my case) or the ST (not.my case) you can rewatch the CT.
     
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  4. Bandini

    Bandini Force Sensitive

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    Great post but who is Kristian harloff ???
     
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  5. The Last Jorgny

    The Last Jorgny Rebel Official

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    Good post, it's important to remember to think for ourselves. I admit that I have been a little too obessed in what other people say about TLJ, but it's only because I genuinly loved it.

    And that's the only thing that should matter. Cheers.
     
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  6. Aglarion

    Aglarion Rebel Official

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    When did this happen with Kristian? Link please?
     
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  7. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I think something that is often forgotten is that most of those who watched TLJ (or TFA for that matter) went in wanting to like it. It's not like we go in thinking "I'm going to go watch this so I can bash and troll people who like it!".

    We go in full of optimism. Maybe there's head cannon, maybe there's prejudice, maybe there's a whole bunch of issues or expectations that are (debatably) too entrenched. For whatever reason, as fans, we go in with an expectation and some come out loving it and others come out hating it.

    From what I can read, it seems most who hate it are long time SW fans. I don't think there's such thing as "true fans", but those who played rpg's since the 80s, read the EU, watched everything and anything SW, those tend to be the ones more critical of TLJ.

    Speaking for myself, I felt they played loose with the established rules of the GFFA. That seems to be a trend lately even outside of SW (JJ's interpretation of Startrek got much criticism because of this too). It's fantasy, so it's hard to say they outright broke any rules, but they were definitely bent to alter our perception of that universe.

    Many of us liked that universe as it was. We wanted change as in different plot lines and such, but save the Mary Poppins or Marvel type humor for GOTG or Avengers type movies. SW means a bit more to us than that. More than that, we don't want more of the same. SW is awesome because it has a different tone than those movies. It somehow manages to take itself more seriously while still incorporating humor here and there (OT).

    I can't speak for everyone who disliked TLJ or TFA, but for me, I wanted to love these movies. I'm let down that I can't bring myself to get past the cringe worthy moments (my opinion). I have no issue with those who love these movies other than the selfishness that I won't get something I love from this new direction. It's not personal, though I can understand how it can be taken that way. The more people like me who dislike it and are vocal about it, the bigger the chance they'll pull back from what you like due to fan pressure (and lets face it, profit margins).

    I agree that SW has become something akin to politics. There was a time when people wanted what is best for the country, now it's more what is best for them, which government will treat them or give them more opportunities. It's not so much about the country than it is about the individual. This goes for both conservatives and liberals, not taking any sides there.

    But this is the world we live in. Our vote when it comes to cinema is through buying tickets and through discussion in places like this. If you like it, I fully encourage you to discuss the points you liked, and even expand on your take. Already some points I hated originally I've come around to accepting, if not flat out liking. But this movie (trilogy so far) had lots that I (my opinion once again) found wrong with it, it's going to be hard for me to get on board. I'm not proud of this, to be honest, I find it kind of depressing that I can't join in on your enthusiasm, but for whatever reason, my mind won't accept a few too many parts in this trilogy so far.

    I think it's equal parts choice and reaction, but rarely is it a desire to see this universe burn in most fans. At least I hope so.
     
    #7 Sparafucile, Dec 23, 2017
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  8. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    I don't think it was a meltdown, more like what most people with a responsible mind will be saying: "I don't care whether you like TLJ or not.". He loves it, so do I, but there are people out there who have started a zealous crusade to show how "bad" the movie is. I know that some of the criticism to TFA upset me when TFA was released. I think its an amazing movie. But at least some of the criticisms of some of the people who didn't like it had actual substance, even though I didn't agree. But in case of TLJ, I just think much of the negative criticism is very funny. Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to belittle people who don't like it. You don't have to like it if you want to. But please, as Harloff says, don't try to spread your message by intimidating people who disagree with you. I just think that arguments used by some of the people claiming that this movie is in some way 'objectively bad' and the zealous nature with which they try to proselytize that message is just outright hilarious. But traumas hardly are hilarious. I genuinely think some people are traumatized by Luke's portrayel in TLJ. Just like Rey is. When I skip to the user reviews there is also a lot of:

    "luke acted very strange in the first two parts of the movie, only at the end did I get to see a glimpse of the old Luke, the legendary hero I grew up with"

    Completely intentional storytelling. You are supposed to feel like Rey. You are supposed to feel disillusioned. My first reaction would be to laugh. But I actually feel sad for the people who have this feeling.

    I think the gap between my understanding and reception of a Star Wars film and that of the people who hate it has never been this great.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 23, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 23, 2017 ---
    This is the more sympathetic way of telling why you didn't like a movie. I accept that, even though I disagree. This is your genuine feeling and you expressed it well. People who dislike TFA or TLJ should take an example of you and your post. I'd rather talk with people like you. We are both longtime fans. You don't love the sequels, I do. And that's it.
     
    #8 Ammianus Marcellinus, Dec 23, 2017
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  9. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Yep. Harloff and co. have largely been inundated with tweets, emails etc about people who hated TLJ. And are seemingly on a quest to get them to admit they hate it too. Like their sole goal in life is to get Harloff, Napzok and Ellis to admit it was garbage, as if it's impossible to have a different opinion. It HAS to be garbage. That's what it's about. I rarely agree with Harloff these days but by all accounts he's a good dude and this blast is ridiculous.

    The dark underbelly of the Star Wars fandom is so dark. You'd think in a movie fandom where the film so explicitly details good and bad, light and dark...this blast would be LESS COMMON....but here we are.
     
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  10. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Well I was at celebration before the release of TFA. They did a special concert for those attending. There were random scenes from the star wars movies displayed on a monitor during the concert. They showed a scene with Anakin (Hayden Christiansen) and a considerable number of people started booing. Some fans did the same when Hayden Christiansen climbed the stage at Star Wars celebration this year. Now I didn't like his performance in the prequels, but booing someone, who plays in a movie-series you allegedly love, is completely ridiculous. That's when I lost faith in part of the Star Wars fandom.

    I am going to quote Rose here. I hope it won't upset the haters.

    "That's how we're gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love"

    p.s. "dummies":p lol.
     
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  11. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I really do not care for the PT at all and I will be vocal about it but I'd never do that to Hayden or anyone. It's a poorly acted set of films outside of like 2 people so it's really silly to blame the actors.

    I guess I first lost faith after the uproar when we found out the new lead was female and well, you know...
     
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  12. Hunin

    Hunin Rebel General

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    I literally have a non-existent tolerance threshold for identity politics of any kind (to say it with Sam Harris: if your identity is anything other than homo sapiens you really are part of the problem), but at this point at the latest the reaction to Rey really has walked, talked and smelled like duck.
     
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  13. Chase7582

    Chase7582 Clone Trooper

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    GL is probably having the best Christmas ever while laughing at Disney saying, “this is why I vowed to never make another film”. The honest truth imo is that no film will ever be ok again. The fan base is too large with very different expectations. TFA got a somewhat pass because it was the first in a long time. With frequent film releases I’m willing to bet this will be the norm. I just wish those that hate it or love it would just vote with their wallets instead of taking on a crusade to smash the other sides views in some fictional war of what SW should be. Personally, I like the new ones, but I still watch all the films, even the ones I don’t like as much because at the end of the day it’s still Star Wars, and it’s better than having it disappear all together. Just because some do or don’t like what’s going on now, I would hate to ruin it for the kids growing up with it right now. My kids love the new trilogy and the new characters way more than I do because for them, this is their journey into the Star Wars galaxy. They will always judge all past and future films against the ST because it’s their frame of reference now. I for one am glad to keep experiencing the distinct music, the mysticism of the force, and stories that let me immerse myself in a galaxy that is far away from the reality of the real world for short spell.
     
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  14. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    And what about 'Black stormtrooper; :eek: That one was a hard one to digest for many "true star wars fans" :p

    There were these guys standing in line for TLJ last thursday and they were complaining about the fact that there were so many 12 year old girls standing in line and how it "unfortunately was no longer their star wars and how it used to be". Whereas my first reaction would be to be very proud that Star Wars has a broader audience, consisting equally of both men and women, boys and girls. What's wrong with that?
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 23, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 23, 2017 ---
    Well-said. There is this lovely item from two years ago on CNN where the forced a couple of youngsters to watch A New Hope and asked whether they liked it. They absolutely hated it. When they were shown TPM, they loved it. We might be so fixed on what is subjectively speaking 'good' or 'bad' star wars that we got completely blinded by the way in which various segments of the demographic experience Star Wars.
     
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  15. Fearghas_Ajax

    Fearghas_Ajax Rebel Official

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    Superb post, If I could give it two "great posts" I would.

    I think this shows how times have changed and some don't accept it. ANH came out when I was 7. I loved it and have loved it all every since. But things were different back then, boys were supposed to be boys and girls were supposed to be girls. They were not supposed to like scifi and stuff like that. I honestly didn't know any girls that did then. Wish I did. I was the nerd, the geek. But now, in this day and age, I found friends of mine that are girls that loved Star Wars. Loved it when it came out, just never knew because it wasn't the norm. If the line is full of 12 year old girls, I think that is great. A good sign that people can be who they are and like what they like.
     
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  16. Chase7582

    Chase7582 Clone Trooper

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    Awesome point about the gender differences during the OT, made me think about when I was young during the OT, I don’t remember any girls loving Star Wars (not that there wasn’t any, I just didn’t know any). Even my parents and their friends didn’t love it like I did, they were more excited about Star Trek in the early eighties.
     
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  17. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    That's the way I feel. People talk about TLJ having "that cringeworthy moment" (or two). I'm like the entire bloody PT was cringeworthy! Lucas hired great actors (except Jake Lloyd and even Hayden Christenson, while not "great" is decent enough if he has a director who directs actors) and then wasted them. I don't blame Liam Neeson for not wanting to come back as a force ghost.

    Having said that, I'm not going to go and rate the PT low on say Rotten Tomatoes just to see it fail. I'm not going to start an online petition to get it removed from "the cannon." Hell, I saw the horrible TPM at last 5 times in the theater just because I still couldn't believe we were getting new Star Wars films. I'd never boo any actor involved with Star Wars (that's just rude).
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 23, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 23, 2017 ---
    I grew up in the 70s and 80s and played Dungeons and Dragons and loved Star Wars. No girls that I knew were into it. Girls into comics? Not that I knew. Now it's different and that is a good thing.
     
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  18. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Exactly. I remember going to TFA in its sixth week. I thought now that I would go one last time, I would be almost alone in cinema. But then there suddenly entered a group of roughly 50 women in their 30s 40s. They were part of a Dutch female ceo's organization. Suprisingly, it was one of the best Star Wars collective viewing experiences I've ever head. Nearly as good as fans watching TFA and TLJ for the first time.
     
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  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Spot on.

    I think critiquing all movies is fair but it's also game for debate.
    Whereas the "backlash" on TLJ right now is bordering on absurdity, the same as it can for the PT critiquing.
    I'm probably guilty of it a bit but have tried to reign it in.
    The key is being open to debate and willing to discuss these things.

    When people seek out to try and convince others they are wrong, is the problem.

    I can debate the PT all day. And I don't think people are wrong for liking them. It's subjective.
    However, by most objective metrics, the PT are poorly made films from a structural standpoint.
    Worst pacing of them all, bottom of the franchise performances, direction the worst, too sterile at times.
    You don't have to stretch to find any of them.

    And even though I love it, I could do similar critiques of the ST and OT.
    They won't be as numerous or egregious but they're there.
    And they require a bit more stretching.
     
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  20. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Exact same thing for me. I never felt the urge to review the prequels. I thought I would just upset a lot of people who did like it. Even when I spoke with friends or other friends about it, I can remember we made some jokes about the dialogue, but usually only talked about what we did love about it.
     
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